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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.04 16:10:00 -
[31]
"The fact that the majority of poeple are using caldari ships to fight in speaks more than any ranting will ever do."
Nevermind that majority* is due to the number of middle slots on caldari ships and their shield size, not because the missiles are so amazingly good...
*) questionable--Amarr ships appear to be at least as popular in some parts of universe and Minmatar ships are quickly growing in numbers at the moment
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Helgu
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Posted - 2004.01.04 16:13:00 -
[32]
You are correct josephine. Caldari ships have genrally more medium slots. Good when missile usage takes no cap, eh?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.04 16:35:00 -
[33]
Edited by: j0sephine on 04/01/2004 16:37:16
"You are correct josephine. Caldari ships have genrally more medium slots. Good when missile usage takes no cap, eh?"
Yes, minimal cap usage is one of few good points about missiles. Wouldn't say it makes them uber weapon though, there's far too many disadvantges which were already pointed out.
To be honest, i think they only reason you see Caldari ships using missiles is, they have no true bonus to any weapon, combined with limited number of low slots which means no room for damage mods, and limited number of turret slots. Has it been different, you'd see them flying around with projectile turrets rather than launchers.
It doesn't mean the missiles are uber. It simply means the Caldari ships suck with any other kind of weapon even more.
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Vawzi
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Posted - 2004.01.04 16:35:00 -
[34]
I find missiles are best used to smaller players trying to mine. The good range, and no missing, makes em good for bloncking rats out of service. Also admit it, a missile explosion is 147 times more entertaining then some little pee-shooter gatling gun.
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mmmmm Tim Hortons :) Why yes I am Canadian, how did you ever guess? |
Vawzi
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Posted - 2004.01.04 16:40:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Vawzi on 04/01/2004 16:42:22
If you werent a Caldari i would hate you. I like Caldari ships, missiles kick ass. no chance of missing, crazy ass range, and it scares da bajeesus outa your enemies.
Say your a PVP pirate sneaking up on some miners... what would scare you more.
"Vawzi misses you completely"
"Vawzi barely scratches you dealing 12.5 damage"
or watching 18 little blips with smoke trails behind em flying toward your face?
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mmmmm Tim Hortons :) Why yes I am Canadian, how did you ever guess? |
Helgu
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Posted - 2004.01.04 16:43:00 -
[36]
Well, you have your opinion and I have mine. I don't have the motivation to debate the issue. I wanted to make the point that, despite the chorus of people calling for missiles to be upgraded again, there are people who think that missiles are too strong/unbalanced.
If missiles were to be made stronger or easier to produce it will result, in a universe of caldari ships and more laggy battles.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.04 16:45:00 -
[37]
"Say your a PVP pirate sneaking up on some miners... what would scare you more.
"Vawzi misses you completely"
"Vawzi barely scratches you dealing 12.5 damage"
or watching 18 little blips with smoke trails behind em flying toward your face?"
Well, i'd duck behind the closest big rock and let my turrets do the talk* while your 18 little blips initiate aggression with the asteroid. :s
So no, neither is really scary.
*) as the guns have no problem shooting through obstacles, as opposed to missiles...
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2004.01.04 18:00:00 -
[38]
TomB is Amarr.
nuff said.
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2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Yrma
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Posted - 2004.01.04 18:56:00 -
[39]
 Quote:
Well, you have your opinion and I have mine. I don't have the motivation to debate the issue. I wanted to make the point that, despite the chorus of people calling for missiles to be upgraded again, there are people who think that missiles are too strong/unbalanced.
If missiles were to be made stronger or easier to produce it will result, in a universe of caldari ships and more laggy battles.
I think noone is talking abiut making missiles stronger, we just want them adjusted in manufacturing cost compaared to large ammo and the dmg done.
Its not right that missiles that do TOPS 360 dmg(you can do more dmg by training cruise missile skill to lvl 5 but thats about 26 days) while ammo can do way over 1000 dmg and even fires more rapidly and hits instantly to boot.
Most peaple use Caldari ships, i.e scorpion to either tank up and use EW modules, they dont use scorpion for dmg so get real.
The way this is right now is borked since fighting a war constantly in a Raven can and does cost millions per day while turrets cost thousands.
Try to look at it without bias and look at it fairly instead of ranting about something that doesnt hold water "owerpowered" my butt.
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Helgu
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Posted - 2004.01.04 19:12:00 -
[40]
As I stated earlier, the overuse of caldari ships for fighting is proof enough that your economic arguement just doesn't make sense. Making missiles cheaper to use would just compound this.
I am not biased, thank you for the accusation. I am minmatar and hence a missile user.
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2004.01.04 20:34:00 -
[41]
Quote:
As I stated earlier, the overuse of caldari ships for fighting is proof enough that your economic arguement just doesn't make sense. Making missiles cheaper to use would just compound this.
I am not biased, thank you for the accusation. I am minmatar and hence a missile user.
HEEE-EELLOOOOO?! Caldari ships are used for EW not for damage, so stop trolling.
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2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Eneroth
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Posted - 2004.01.04 20:57:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Quote:
As I stated earlier, the overuse of caldari ships for fighting is proof enough that your economic arguement just doesn't make sense. Making missiles cheaper to use would just compound this.
I am not biased, thank you for the accusation. I am minmatar and hence a missile user.
HEEE-EELLOOOOO?! Caldari ships are used for EW not for damage, so stop trolling.
What do u mean with "ships" raven isnt a ew ship its a missile boat/carrier/ship only scorp & bb is for ew even thou it was a gallente speciall for some reason.
So according to u a raven isnt for dmg ohh my fault then whats it for then????
BTW missiles are fine as it is if ppl cant afford being in bigger battles they should stfu and go make some isk for it instead of sitting in a station or something.
-Any fool can pull a trigger.- |
Eneroth
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Posted - 2004.01.04 21:06:00 -
[43]
Quote:
Now as you can then you basicly get more dmg with turrets each shot and you even have better ROF on all turrets than with siege launcher and often better ROF than h-50¦s.
Well launchers dont use so much cap as a turret and if u gonna say projectile u better use dmg mods or fly a minmatar ship to get the bonus.
Hmm i fly a minmatar bs with lvl3 and lvl3 on rof skill + 1 dmg mod (pnu) but my projectile is still abit slow.
But a 4x 1400 & 4x XR-3200 is good. Missiles are fine as they are, i dont have any problems with it i can count fire 1...2...3... fire with my launchers.
-Any fool can pull a trigger.- |
Luc Boye
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Posted - 2004.01.04 21:06:00 -
[44]
Quote:
What do u mean with "ships" raven isnt a ew ship its a missile boat/carrier/ship only scorp & bb is for ew even thou it was a gallente speciall for some reason.
So according to u a raven isnt for dmg ohh my fault then whats it for then????
BTW missiles are fine as it is if ppl cant afford being in bigger battles they should stfu and go make some isk for it instead of sitting in a station or something.
Ok raven then, but scorp/raven ratio in major battles says it all. Hell people fly apoc and tempest even more then raven.
- Any fool can pull my finger -
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2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Yrma
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Posted - 2004.01.04 22:06:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Quote:
Now as you can then you basicly get more dmg with turrets each shot and you even have better ROF on all turrets than with siege launcher and often better ROF than h-50¦s.
Well launchers dont use so much cap as a turret and if u gonna say projectile u better use dmg mods or fly a minmatar ship to get the bonus.
Hmm i fly a minmatar bs with lvl3 and lvl3 on rof skill + 1 dmg mod (pnu) but my projectile is still abit slow.
But a 4x 1400 & 4x XR-3200 is good. Missiles are fine as they are, i dont have any problems with it i can count fire 1...2...3... fire with my launchers.
Well I use 2x 1400mm on my raven and I do about 250-500 without any dmg mods so I bet a minmatar ship user would do more with the bonuses and if I had 8 turret slotts on my raven I would use as many projectiles as I could since they give me more dmg.
But I dont really have the option of using more than 4 turrets max so I am basicly forced to use missile launchers or smartbombs.
That is why I think missiles and torps should be cheaper.
Caldari battleshps should not be only for the very rich players, they shouldnt cost 100 times more to run than turret ships.
My problem isnt that I cant afford to build missiles since I have more isk and Bships than most small corps out there, the problem is that its unbalanced with missiles and torps using MEGA and ZYD to build.
Calculate the npc price on mega and zyd and move those values to other minerals, that would be fair to say the least since mega and zyd is hard to get and very expancive today.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.05 22:17:00 -
[46]
Thanks Jim but I know how to PvP. Which is also why I know most of your arguements are total BS whining.
Firing and activating missle launchers are synonymous btw. Regardless of the verbage they still use (like I said before) VIRTUALLY no cap.
So people outrunning your missles is actually minmatar frigates using MWDs? Well you know they are missing 25% shields already?
But anyway I can see from your post that you aren't interested in actually discussing these issues but rather just being involved in a b1cth-fest.
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Red Six
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Posted - 2004.01.06 00:42:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Red Six on 06/01/2004 00:47:15
While fighting yesterday in a Caracal I spazzed and didn't space out my missle shots well enough. My fourth Cataclysm was destroyed by my third Cataclysm. It's still happening. It's not happening as often but it's still happening.
I'm with Jim.
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Blade Durrant
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Posted - 2004.01.06 01:00:00 -
[48]
Face it. Missiles should do more damage. At current rates you do much less dmg with missiles than with any other form of weapon. Lrg Proj have just as much range (if tweaked) and hit for more dmg and hit faster than a missile and cant be destroyed. A torp should do minimum of 1000 dmg a hit, especially as they are supposed to be used for slow moving/stationary targets. Cruise missiles should do around 300-500 dmg imo. And light missiles drastically need a speed upgrade. Does anyone seriously use them? Hvys are ok imo but not really much use other than vaping npc rats when u can use larger missiles. Some work needs to be done to rebalance missiles. Even a light turret does more than a light missiles, and in some cases with the right hits do more than a hvy missiles (ive gotten 300+ dmg hits with 250 scouts before). The dmg/sec ratio gets even larger when u get to the bigger guns. Yeah guns take more cap/grid to mount, but there ammo is much much smaller than a missile and they fire faster and dont get dealt with by a variety of things. And while i wouldnt mind an ams system for my ship so i can deal with missile spams by npcs, there are too many ways to deal with missiles right now. And missiles definetly shouldnt lose there lock when u warp.
-"Podkilling is more than a hobby, Its a way of life."
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.06 01:17:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Thanks Jim but I know how to PvP. Which is also why I know most of your arguements are total BS whining.
Heh, look, there's major flaws in missles that make them complete crap when compared to turrets. As long as these flaws exist, I will complain. There's a very good number of people in Eve that use caldari ships and missles and right now, they are not effective.
Call me any name you want, it doesn't change the fact Eve has major balance flaws.
Quote:
Firing and activating missle launchers are synonymous btw. Regardless of the verbage they still use (like I said before) VIRTUALLY no cap.
Uhm, firing projectiles costs no cap either, their ammo is about a thousand times cheaper, and their damage over time is much greater than missles. So where your point again? Oh that's right, you don't have one.
Missles still suck.
Quote:
So people outrunning your missles is actually minmatar frigates using MWDs? Well you know they are missing 25% shields already?
-25% on shields is nothing for a frigate, any hit from a large turret or cruise missle will destroy them, +/- 25% shields, it means nothing. Speed and lock times is what keeps them alive.
Quote:
But anyway I can see from your post that you aren't interested in actually discussing these issues but rather just being involved in a b1cth-fest.
I'm very interested in making ships that deploy missles both effective and fun to play. Right now they're simply ineffective and costly to use, there's no advantage to missles. Any advantage they have, you can do better with a projectile setup.
I'm pretty sure any Tempest with a 1400mm and decent shield tank setup can blow even the best Raven out of the water.
Missles simply don't cut it in battleship vs battleship, they're expensive, slow, and bugged (they destroy each other still, deny deny deny, say it was fixed, whatever, but it's still a HUGE issue).
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Kerosene
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Posted - 2004.01.06 01:36:00 -
[50]
A couple of points..
Missiles do tend to take each other out on impact with the enemy. This is worse when things get a bit laggy because even if I time 2 secs between each missiles launch, they can still all launch together.
Secondly, I prefer missiles to turrets still. Why? I like to run agent missions in a frigate thank you. I'd rather lose 20 Kestrels than 1 cruiser. The kind of damage you're all talking about with turrets is available only to the high end ships. How much mega do they cost? If missiles are cheaper, fine, no problem. If missiles become more effective then you'll see every man and their dog flying Kestrels on day to day missions.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.06 01:45:00 -
[51]
Quote:
A couple of points..
Missiles do tend to take each other out on impact with the enemy. This is worse when things get a bit laggy because even if I time 2 secs between each missiles launch, they can still all launch together.
Secondly, I prefer missiles to turrets still. Why? I like to run agent missions in a frigate thank you. I'd rather lose 20 Kestrels than 1 cruiser. The kind of damage you're all talking about with turrets is available only to the high end ships. How much mega do they cost? If missiles are cheaper, fine, no problem. If missiles become more effective then you'll see every man and their dog flying Kestrels on day to day missions.
Heh, agent missions have nothing to do with PvP. I use a Kestrel on agent missions too, not because of missles, but because it's the fastest caldari ship with the biggest cargo bay. In agent missions, that's all that matters, cargo and speed. I don't get kill missions very often.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
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