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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1685
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Posted - 2017.05.05 07:32:09 -
[61] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cool it with the "Vote for me" trashposts.
CSM elections came and went. You missed the boat.
Stick to topic. Your post is off topic.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Salvos Rhoska
2891
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Posted - 2017.05.05 08:41:36 -
[62] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cool it with the "Vote for me" trashposts.
CSM elections came and went. You missed the boat.
Stick to topic. Your post is off topic.
Is it? Then so are yours.
Make up your mind, my dear.
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Chopper Rollins
Far Beyond Triggered
1860
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Posted - 2017.05.05 10:48:51 -
[63] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Nardos Tatio wrote:
Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017......
Time for a change.....
No, it is not. Go away.
BUT IT IS THE CURRENT YEAR.
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1685
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Posted - 2017.05.05 11:02:49 -
[64] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cool it with the "Vote for me" trashposts.
CSM elections came and went. You missed the boat.
Stick to topic. Your post is off topic. Is it? Then so are yours. Make up your mind, my dear. Yeah mine are, but I'm not the fool crying for people to stay on topic while posting off topic at the same time.
People can post how they like. If the ISDs or CCP staff don't like it, they'll sort it out. No one is really going to pay much attention to anything you request of them,
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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March rabbit
Mosquito squadron The-Culture
2164
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Posted - 2017.05.05 11:50:23 -
[65] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cool it with the "Vote for me" trashposts.
CSM elections came and went. You missed the boat.
Stick to topic. Your post is off topic. Is it? Then so are yours. Make up your mind, my dear. Yeah mine are, but I'm not the fool crying for people to stay on topic while posting off topic at the same time. People can post how they like. If the ISDs or CCP staff don't like it, they'll sort it out. No one is really going to pay much attention to anything you request of them, The bar is getting lower and lower.....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Jenn aSide
shinigami miners ChaosTheory.
15799
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Posted - 2017.05.05 12:10:39 -
[66] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote: You accept PvP when you click undock. If you have an issue with that, Singularity is open for you.
I see the indoctrination programme is still in full swing....
How is accepting the plain reality of a situation "indoctrination"?
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Salvos Rhoska
2892
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Posted - 2017.05.05 12:30:54 -
[67] - Quote
I agree with Teckos on not implementing more isk sinks. (I used to think differently, but Ive learned from him in previous threads)
I think the Upwell structures result of redirecting cost of services to player Corp pockets rather than sunk out of the game to NPCs was a good step towards a more player centered economy, although its true impact is unclear and obscured by the Jita/Forge Monolith. (Id love if someone with know how could calculate the change in NPC fees/tax sink since Upwell structures where released)
Isk sinks suck, especially as it makes the economy even more vulnerable to: a) players leaving game and removing their assets from circulation. b) remaining players choosing not to invest due to rate of deflation.
Thats the isk sink issue out of the way.
But.
Teckos: Why do you think there is a deflation trend? What sustained ingame player action is causing this?
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Salvos Rhoska
2892
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Posted - 2017.05.05 12:35:09 -
[68] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote: You accept PvP when you click undock. If you have an issue with that, Singularity is open for you.
I see the indoctrination programme is still in full swing.... How is accepting the plain reality of a situation "indoctrination"?
Teaching players the Golden Rules is indoctrination. Teaching a student the scientific method is indoctrination.
You have the false premise that indoctrination could not involve being taught to understand/accept the plain reality of a system.
You dun goofed again, Jenn.
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Salvos Rhoska
2892
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Posted - 2017.05.05 12:58:00 -
[69] - Quote
Soon approaching Reddit standards. Guess its the millennial generation piling in.
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Jenn aSide
shinigami miners ChaosTheory.
15799
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Posted - 2017.05.05 13:01:12 -
[70] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote: You accept PvP when you click undock. If you have an issue with that, Singularity is open for you.
I see the indoctrination programme is still in full swing.... How is accepting the plain reality of a situation "indoctrination"? Teaching players the Golden Rules is indoctrination. Teaching a student the scientific method is indoctrination. You have the false premise that indoctrination could not involve being taught to understand/accept the plain reality of a system. You dun goofed again, Jenn.
I understand that English isn't your 1st language so you might not get what's being wrote, but the way the word was used was with a negative inflection.
Funny thing is there is a guy at my job who is from South America and does the same thing, and like you we've had to explain that real language use doesn't follow strict dictionary guidelines.
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ISD Chanisa Nemes
isd community communications liaisons
126
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Posted - 2017.05.05 13:55:07 -
[71] - Quote
Removed some off-topic posting
ISD Chanisa Nemes
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Salvos Rhoska
2894
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Posted - 2017.05.05 15:08:13 -
[72] - Quote
"Indoctrination" as a term, carries no "negative inflections" (whatever the """" you think that means).
Sorry, SJennaW. You cant pervert language here without being called on it.
The term doesn't mean what you have been "indoctrinated" to think it means.
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Uhum Buheev
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2017.05.05 15:54:06 -
[73] - Quote
just allow bombs in Hi Sec
Create Urgent Message like kind of "Broken security Event! Empire security is compromized by viruses and bombs are allowed in Jita undock! Starting from today, and it ends in 3 days!! BE careful! (I mean hurry up and kill kill kill!! 3 days only!!)"
and repeat that event randomly once in month. really good sink for isks! |
Salvos Rhoska
2894
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Posted - 2017.05.05 15:58:04 -
[74] - Quote
Uhum Buheev wrote:just allow bombs in Hi Sec! Im totally ok with NS rules in Jita. Jita must die.
Jita/Forge is a cancerous tumor made possible by bad mechanics perpetuated throughout EVE for years.
It should not exist. Every yesr, NPC Jita grows more prominent. Its an abomination and a drain on content/dynamics both economic and PvP throughout EVE.
DEATH TO JITA!
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.05 17:29:45 -
[75] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I agree with Teckos on not implementing more isk sinks. (I used to think differently, but Ive learned from him in previous threads)
I think the Upwell structures result of redirecting cost of services to player Corp pockets rather than sunk out of the game to NPCs was a good step towards a more player centered economy, although its true impact is unclear and obscured by the Jita/Forge Monolith. (Id love if someone with know how could calculate the change in NPC fees/tax sink since Upwell structures where released)
Isk sinks suck, especially as it makes the economy even more vulnerable to: a) players leaving game and removing their assets from circulation. b) remaining players choosing not to invest due to rate of deflation.
Thats the isk sink issue out of the way.
But.
Teckos: Why do you think there is a deflation trend? What sustained ingame player action is causing this?
It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Salvos Rhoska
2894
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Posted - 2017.05.05 17:43:44 -
[76] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. I already agreed to that.
Isk sinks are bad. Better to funnel those funds into player entities such as by Upwell structures replacing NPC sinks into player pockets instead..
But. Thats not what I asked you.
You have claimed the EVE isk economy is deflating.
Explain now then why that is occurring.
What is causing deflation in EVE?
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Benje en Divalone
6
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Posted - 2017.05.05 17:47:03 -
[77] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jita/Forge is a cancerous tumor made possible by bad mechanics perpetuated throughout EVE for years. Nuke Jita and another High Sec station becomes the hub. Continue to nuke the new hubs and soon there won't be any High Sec left. At that point I guess we'll have to become renters of GSF or PH so we can trade. Or opt out entirely.
Brilliant.
(never not take the bait) |
Salvos Rhoska
2894
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Posted - 2017.05.05 18:27:03 -
[78] - Quote
Benje en Divalone wrote:Nuke Jita and another High Sec station becomes the hub. There are underlying causes. Material transport, especially past LS, is too safe. JFs make a mockery of LS transit between HS and NS.
The figures for Jita trade volume completely eclipse anywhere else, and its a goddam NPC system.
Mark my words, Jita is one of the causes for "EVE dying".
As related to topic, goddam the amount of isk sink in Jita alone for fees.
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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
2959
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Posted - 2017.05.05 18:43:39 -
[79] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO.
we farm more isk than we can use, and build more than we can sell. It is nice to have a bunch of isk in the wallet and a bunch of ships you could fly. Having a bunch of isk and backup items means it hurts less when you do lose something.
selling officer BCUs! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6872141
@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
113
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Posted - 2017.05.05 18:48:40 -
[80] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Benje en Divalone wrote:Nuke Jita and another High Sec station becomes the hub. There are underlying causes. Material transport, especially past LS, is too safe. JFs make a mockery of LS transit between HS and NS. The figures for Jita trade volume completely eclipse anywhere else, and its a goddam NPC system. Mark my words, Jita is one of the causes for "EVE dying". As related to topic, goddam the amount of isk sink in Jita alone for fees.
Centralized markeds don't create deflation in general. If you take away centralized market s you end up with an economic situation that has more regional variance on what the prices are of different things in different places... but it has little net impact on on totals. The supply is the same... the demand is the same. It's just the points of sale are not centralized. In the areas where the demand is high and/or the supply is low... prices rise. If the demand in another place is low and/or the supply is high... prices drop.
If products are destroyed (not confiscated, but in fact destroyed) in great numbers on the way to a central market but players do NOT react by spreading to diversified markets.... then you could see a supply impact. But I think you would agree that if hauling were to become less safe the markets would spread out instead of being centered in a few places. This could get rid of Jita... but it wouldn't impact inflation/deflation in a significant way (assuming that deflation is the underlying cause you're referring to). |
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Salvos Rhoska
2894
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:00:02 -
[81] - Quote
Such a monolith as Jita should never have been possible in EVE.
Its existence is anathema to every EVE principle, and proof positive of severely dysfunctional safety of material transport to and from it.
Its an abomination. A festering, ever-growing cancer that sucks the life/content out of the rest of EVE.
Player empires rise and fall, yet the Jita tumor only grows and grows.
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:48:02 -
[82] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. I already agreed to that. Isk sinks are bad. Better to funnel those funds into player entities such as by Upwell structures replacing NPC sinks into player pockets instead.. But. Thats not what I asked you. You have claimed the EVE isk economy is deflating. Explain now then why that is occurring. What is causing deflation in EVE?
ISK sinks in and of themselves aren't bad. And for what is causing it, my last post gave some possibilities as to why we are seeing prices trending down. Another factor could be reduction to barriers to certain production such as the change to station slots for copying, manufacturing, inventing, etc. That removed many barriers just by itself. Before to do invention having a POS was quite common, but to have a POS in those days you had to have standings and the POS fuels. With unlimited slots the role of the POS was greatly reduced for much of invention. Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:50:45 -
[83] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. we farm more isk than we can use, and build more than we can sell. It is nice to have a bunch of isk in the wallet and a bunch of ships you could fly. Having a bunch of isk and backup items means it hurts less when you do lose something.
If that is the case, then perhaps it is the lack of sufficient destruction. We need more conflict!
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8407
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:52:56 -
[84] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month.
In looking at these reports lately the supply of ISK in game has been quite flat. Further, inflation is actually deflation. A small amount of deflation in an economy is fine. A large amount is bad. If one can earn say 10%/annum or more by simply not spending ISK then spending may very well collapse or take a serious hit. This is what happened during the Great Depression. The Fed let the money supply collapse which in turn resulted in consumption spending collapsing and thus taking a garden variety recession into a depression.
And letGÇÖs keep in mind that CCP Quant is using a modified Laspeyres index function which will actually overstate inflation or understate deflation. Ideally a superlative index function should be used like a superlative index function like in the sense of Fisher, T+¦rnqvist, or Walsh. These indices will treat price increases/decreases symmetrically and not result in a bias. That is, if anything deflation is being under-reported.
First I read your post and thought "Who is this and what did he do to Teckos? Why would an economist kidnap Teckos and post that?"
But seeing that you a fielding an issue that is NOT "hurr durr gank the bears" I will entertain this thread.
First, the ISK Sinks is not a bears thing as Shae, to whom everything is carebear caused and faulted to, implies. I have been seeing the ISK sink argument for years and even the PVP/pirate/gank crowd has made it when referring to ship destruction.
But as you seem to bring in real world economics concepts, which has some validity (beware, I might go Full Mises on you if I see the need for it), I must field the question:
Are ISK Sinks to be justified in light of the existence of ISK "faucets"?
My agenda around that question would be to prove that the existence of an ISK sink is justified and necessary in light of there being the existence of the ISK faucet: the ability to "print ISK".
And as you know, governments, and the US Federal Reserve in particular (I feel the ghost of Mises moving at me from down the hall....) sure like to use the printing press.
Arguably the effects of money creation create inflation. I have met many an old timer talking about "earning 5 bucks an hour" back in their day. But that 5 bucks went a long way.. Or did it?
Consider this then: if you exchanged 1 oz silver dollars at the spot price of silver for goods by selling the silver at spot, converting to FRNs, you would in fact be very close (not considering sporadic market demand for a particular good or service at that time) to the purchase price of the goods and services as they were before the departure of the paper dollar from the gold standards in the early 1970s.
Meaning that prices of things are not "going up" but in fact the number of dollars it takes to get these items increases because inflation devalues those existing dollars for commodities that are relatively static in value.
Therefore ISK sinks are justified because there are ISK faucets. Both, game-wise, are not natural. But as we see how devalued the US Dollar has become since 1913, we have IRL the real condition of a monetary faucet without enough sinks.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Salvos Rhoska
2897
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:57:44 -
[85] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply.
Why?
What is causing that imbalance?
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.05 20:52:08 -
[86] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply. Why? What is causing that imbalance?
I don't know. Any economy is a complex process so that information is not possessed by any single individual. The information is distributed between all the people in the economy to different degrees. The economy is not like an engine it is more like an ecosystem. So what you see going on in part of the ecosystem can very well be a result of some other phenomenon you are totally unaware of. This is why "managing" an economy (or ecosystem) is so hard. Nobody possess all of the relevant information to actually do it or at least do it well.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Salvos Rhoska
2902
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Posted - 2017.05.06 06:09:23 -
[87] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply. Why? What is causing that imbalance? I don't know. Any economy is a complex process so that information is not possessed by any single individual. The information is distributed between all the people in the economy to different degrees. The economy is not like an engine it is more like an ecosystem. So what you see going on in part of the ecosystem can very well be a result of some other phenomenon you are totally unaware of. This is why "managing" an economy (or ecosystem) is so hard. Nobody possess all of the relevant information to actually do it or at least do it well.
Ok, fair enough.
But if you dont know that, how can you know that the game should cool it with the isk sinks?
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.06 07:06:27 -
[88] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply. Why? What is causing that imbalance? I don't know. Any economy is a complex process so that information is not possessed by any single individual. The information is distributed between all the people in the economy to different degrees. The economy is not like an engine it is more like an ecosystem. So what you see going on in part of the ecosystem can very well be a result of some other phenomenon you are totally unaware of. This is why "managing" an economy (or ecosystem) is so hard. Nobody possess all of the relevant information to actually do it or at least do it well. Ok, fair enough. But if you dont know that, how can you know that the game should cool it with the isk sinks?
Because we do know that the money supply is in imbalance with the real sector, we just don't exactly why or to what degree possible explanations play a roll. so we don't need to reduce the money supply. So no new sinks, no attempts to increase the current sinks.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Dracvlad
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
3125
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Posted - 2017.05.06 08:38:48 -
[89] - Quote
I do find myself in agreement with Teckos as to no new ISK sinks are needed.
CCP have reduced the income potential from WH space based on capital escalations so that quite a few people I know have left WH space, IMO that is a good thing.
CCP have also made carrier ratting more active so it costs ISK unless you are on top of it, but I cannot help thinking that a fighter pilot coming to a complete stop after blowing some one up in the middle of a fight is a bit dumb.
I get the impression that CCP are reigning in some of the more over the top ISK fonts and that is a good thing and I like the direction they are going with this.
Rorqual mining, this is causing some adjustment in the way Eve works, but is I think it is a good approach because more people are using capitals and are happy to lose them because they can replace them easier, again a good thing. The problem is that it is causing deflation on T1 hulls, but again that means people will have throw away ships which will create more content.
T2 production will have a serious change incoming which could reverse the overall deflation at least on T2 items, this will be a quite rocky period and fun to watch. The issue is on who will be mining the stuff after it has been ripped from the moon, a number of people have said that this will be dealt with in terms of parasite alliances who control space and rent it out charging more for systems with good moons thus forcing the renter to mine them.
Like economics there are many different views as to why and how and what will be, but no more ISK sinks are needed, I just injected two lots of capital training blocks and that is one hell of an ISK sink.
Anyway this is not an argument point of view just an opinion, I will give Teckos some credit for admitting that he did not know, because I don't either, but I would like to see his opinion.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1688
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Posted - 2017.05.06 08:42:09 -
[90] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:First, the ISK Sinks is not a bears thing as Shae, to whom everything is carebear caused and faulted to, implies. While I don't go killing innocent animals IRL like you do, I must admit, fishing in the forum is too easy.
Not much of a sport at all.
Ah well, what can we do. Throw out bait and it's sure to be gobbled up by all the usuals.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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