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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Ker Ching
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Posted - 2007.05.11 20:06:00 -
[1]
4 attempts. The first one, with relevant skills at lvl 1, succeeded. The last 3, with the relevant skills all at lvl 4.....fail. All attempts using identical BPCs, decryptors, original items, etc.
Am I missing something, or am I just unlucky? 160 million down the pan so far. Not enough to break even with the one success.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.05.11 20:13:00 -
[2]
Invention with so few attempts is a gamble nothing else.
Success is random so it evens out after a greater number of attempts (e.g. 20 trys I had 10 failures first and then 9 success out of 10 next).
If you cant afford to do a large number of trys dont do it unless you want to gamble and possibly lose.
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Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.05.11 22:04:00 -
[3]
What skills are relevant to invention?
-Bart
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Lilan Kahn
Amarr
The Littlest Hobos
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.11 22:06:00 -
[4]
Invention is borked dont bother until it gets more ballanced
 Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.05.12 11:19:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Invention is borked dont bother until it gets more ballanced
I agreed, I only had a 3/4 success rate on Ishtar's (10 run, and 2 * 2 run's) so I refuse to do any more invention.
Sick of the waits with empire research slots? Use mine! |
Halkin
Locus Solus
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Posted - 2007.05.12 11:25:00 -
[6]
oh noes it failed  etc
imo atm it is balanced, after running over 900 jobs so far on mods that my opinion (and yes i have had a large percentage of failures)
on ships i cant really comment as my sample base is too low, but so far it seems to be around 18%. get used to it, the isk prnting machine isnt here yet
Originally by: Frug
I heard it was vampires in space.
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari
Khanid Aerospace Group
Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.13 01:37:00 -
[7]
Invention is sort of like going into the insurance business. You can't have so little money that one insurance claim (invention failure), or even several, puts you into bankruptcy.
If you don't have the money to run a statistically significant number of jobs then you should get research agents and just run jobs as you get the cores or something.
Note that if you pick the wrong items (and most items are the wrong items) you'll make less money (possibly much less) than if you just sold the cores in Jita.
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.05.13 02:42:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 13/05/2007 02:41:02
The golden age of invention has passed IMO, with inventors sealing their own fates by driving down the sale price.
Invention IS balanced, it's just hard to make a profit atm. judging by the prices of ships, it sounds like a 1 in 4 chance of inventing a ship is pretty good.
I was a module inventor while prices were booming, once my precious T2 heavy launchers hit less than 4 mil, saw it was time to bail. But then,, module invention seemed to work fine.
I've heard ship invention is more difficult, and thats a good thing tbh. A lot of inventors are selling for stupid costs.
Improve Market Competition! |
Katril Wolf
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Posted - 2007.05.13 02:48:00 -
[9]
I make a bil+ a week inventing and building, so it works.
For mods with L4 skills and an avg decryptor, 1 in 3.
For mods with L4 skills and worst decryptor, 1 in 6 or so.
Ships. once my prints come out of copying, I'll have around 50 max run cruiser prints to test with. but up till now. 5 zealot try's, 2 successes. 4 sacrilege trys, 1 success.
I'll part with a comment about statistics. a 50% chance means over an infinite number of attempts 50% will work. It does not say that over 10 attempts 5 should work, it doesn't even say 1 will work, just that over an infinite number of tries, it should work this amount.
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.05.13 04:49:00 -
[10]
There is still a lot of money that can be made with invention.
Last week my invention investment of about 100m brought in 900m worth of goods. This week, I have ramped up in my chosen products, and expect profits to have the same kind of ratio (possibly a little less if a lot of others invent the same as me) but with a higher capital, ie 300m bringing in approx 2-3b worth of goods.
Soon find out, but money is there to be made if you know where to look
Sick of the waits with empire research slots? Use mine! |
New Hampshire
Caldari
Antares Frontier
The Fifth Race
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Posted - 2007.05.13 13:05:00 -
[11]
Having trouble with invention? Don't worry! Just join Band of Brothers, aka Band of Developers. They have PLENTY of BPOs to earn mega isk.
Don't know what I'm talking about? Well, it's established fact that at least one developer rigged the Tech II BPO lottery in BoD's favor. And the fun thing is, WHO KNOWS what other favors were received by BoD? The value of the knowledge provided by the dev, by itself, was probably worth billions of ISK. And it's just a COINCIDENCE, isn't it, that BoD is kicking arse all over Eve?
Anyone know if there are any new space-based MMOGs being produced? Just wondering. |
Shadoo
North Eastern Swat
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Posted - 2007.05.13 14:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: New Hampshire
<troll>
Can I have your stuff?
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New Hampshire
Caldari
Antares Frontier
The Fifth Race
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Posted - 2007.05.13 15:56:00 -
[13]
You can have all my stuff as soon as I leave - but as I implied in my post, there really isn't any decent space-based MMOGs out there at this time (though I remain hopeful). So that's why I didn't say I'm leaving, 'cause there's unfortunately nothing to leave TO.
I get ticked when I read posts by CCP personnel saying that it's silly to suggest that there's some large conspiracy here. I don't know many people who suggest any such thing, and I suspect that such comments are designed to distract from the real undeniable fact here - that one Dev did provide significant cheats to BoD. If that one Dev provided cheats in that one area and confessed after getting caught, then obviously there is a question of what other cheats (or even just insider game information) were/was provided that were not uncovered. It doesn't take a massive conspiracy to tip the playing field massively to one side, it just takes one crummy dev - and that is PRECISELY what has already happened.
And the big problem is, there's no way to remove the damage. Even if you get rid of all the tech II BPOs won by BoD (as if), then there's still nothing you can do about all the isk and resources that was generated by those BPOs, said isk and resources then being spread among the alliance to be used for conquest which leads to further isk and resources tainted by the original cheating. It's like trying to remove ink from a glass of milk. The bottom line - Eve as a game of competition is now permanently tainted.
Don't believe me? Then answer me this one question: Do you really believe it is a coincidence that the alliance that received gameplay cheats from a dev is the same alliance that is kicking arse so well?
Every person who plays this game has every right to be annoyed. And you better believe I do have my eyes open for a new, decent space-based MMOG.
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The Comatorium
SNM Airlines
ASGARDIAN EMPIRE
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Posted - 2007.05.13 17:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: New Hampshire
Don't believe me? Then answer me this one question: Do you really believe it is a coincidence that the alliance that received gameplay cheats from a dev is the same alliance that is kicking arse so well?
I LOL'ed... would you happen to know as well who killed John F. Kennedy
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari
Khanid Aerospace Group
Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.13 17:52:00 -
[15]
I hate to say it, because if I were a dev I'd still want to play the game, but yea. If I were a dev it would be a bit tough for me to avoid using my inside knowledge of how invention works unless I didn't do any invention at all. This is assuming that I didn't tell anyone else the information; it would still be a conflict of interests. What can you really do? Pretend not to know how things work and intentionally do dumb things to simlute not having that knowledge?
Especially with invention you don't need cheats in the game... even just a little knowledge of the system (especially the whole forumla) makes a huge difference. Oh well....
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Oiri Yusko
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.05.13 18:25:00 -
[16]
Please stay on topic (invention). Please do not discuss topics which belong in other forums here, specifically alliance politics.
Also, please do not troll.
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The Mattius
Enigma Technologies
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Posted - 2007.05.13 18:33:00 -
[17]
Quote:
I LOL'ed... would you happen to know as well who killed John F. Kennedy
I doubt NH knows the guy personally, but i'm willing to bet he's convinced he was in a BOB corp  
But back on topic......
Invention is a rich mans game atm, if you want any kind of profit. The way the odds are stacked, you need to be able to run 100's of invention jobs to get any kind of meaningful success.
If on the other hand, you have a few R&D agents you can use to supply your own datacores, and you just want to get T2 a little cheaper, then as a hobby, anyone can jump on the bandwagon.
I started with about 100 mil isk, used exploration to supply the interfaces and traded the ones i didnt have etc. Got a few Boundless agents on the go, and set a 0.5 POS up.
Not making a fortune, but it pays the bills, and it's alot less tedious than the same old lvl4 mision grind.
-TM-
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The Comatorium
SNM Airlines
ASGARDIAN EMPIRE
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Posted - 2007.05.13 19:23:00 -
[18]
Sry for bein a troll earlier :p
I'm more worried about the quality of the results than the frequency of the followings.
I am already using the Mobile lab for research with some decent but not extraordinary Skills and already have quite a regualar income. Thing is... i dont want to make 8 succesful tries out of 20 if it is to be some crappy named 2 runs blueprints.
Is it worth for a small combat related corporation to Invest into 2-3 labs for invention to t2 gear their members?
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Chia Mulholland
Mulholland Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.05.13 19:42:00 -
[19]
If invention is meant to replace T2 BPOs, then it's broken. It works for expensive T2 ships and modules. But if T2 BPOs were removed tomorrow, that'd be the end of T2 ammo.
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The Mattius
Enigma Technologies
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Posted - 2007.05.13 20:18:00 -
[20]
I don't believe it was ever CCP's intention that invention should replace the current T2 BPO system.
It was supposed to allow everyone who didn't get lucky on the lottery (read most people) a way into the T2 market, albeit a less profitable route.
I think, from the dev blogs, that invention is simply a stepping stone to T3, which will be totally invention/exploration based. Hopefully, this will not require T1 then T2 BPO's and a final step involved to make a T3 BPC, otherwise the current T2 BPO holders will forever more have an advantage that those without will never be able to compete with.
Where i think it is a little unfair, is that somone who did nothing more than start a research agent off ends up with a BPO that can generate billions of isk (not all T2 BPO's obviously), and yet somone who spends weeks/months exploring, spending 100's of millions of isk on interfaces/decryptors/datacores etc, ends up with a tiny run, poor quality copy, with a wastage factor of 40/50%.
It would help us all so much if a Dev would release some facts on how all the skills/meta item level/run copy/ME and PE levels all fitted together.
Instead it is left to a few incredibly dedicated souls, who not only run live invention jobs, but also test server jobs. It is only the fact that they are sharing their experiences that we have any real clues as to how it all fits together at all.
Oh, and regarding ammo, that will be coming in the next patch, and is on the test server atm. I think the succes or failure of T2 ammo/drones invention will rely very much on the final invention requirements of the BPC. This is being looked at currently.
-TM-
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.05.13 22:33:00 -
[21]
Quote:
I get ticked when I read posts by CCP personnel saying that it's silly to suggest that there's some large conspiracy here.
There can be conspiracy every day, I dont care, it makes myself and more than likely the majority of the eve community to defeat BoB the proper way, so please go away with your trolling, it happened and nobody cares anymore.
Back on topic,
Quote:
If invention is meant to replace T2 BPOs, then it's broken. It works for expensive T2 ships and modules. But if T2 BPOs were removed tomorrow, that'd be the end of T2 ammo.
1. Invention is NOT meant to replace T2 BPOs.
2. Of course invention works for expensive equipment, it's expensive because it's in demand. You dont see people rolling in cash from the Dual 250mm railgun in either T1 OR the T2 markets, in fact i'd be surprised if prices changed at all because nobody really cares about that kit, some do , but most dont.
3. Yes, T2 ammo invention is broken, thus why it's on SiSi and not TQ.
Improve Market Competition! |
New Hampshire
Caldari
Antares Frontier
The Fifth Race
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Posted - 2007.05.14 01:36:00 -
[22]
Invention may not be intended to replace tech II BPOs per se, but it IS explicitly meant to replace the tech II BPO lottery. Only those people who have won tech II BPOs will have them, unless you are able to buy one.
BTW, I very clearly stated in my earlier posting that I do NOT believe that there was any conspiracy, just one lousy dev. And that is merely something even CCP admits. However, I also explained how such a thing (it's a first in the MMOG industry as far as I can tell) can permanently taint the game even if it's NOT a large conspiracy. I challenge anyone to explain how that taint can be undone, and I again challenge anyone to answer the question that has been ignored: do you think it's a coincidence that the beneficiary of the dev cheating is the one alliance that is kicking butt all over Eve?
Moreover, this IS on topic because according to CCP the invention system is part of some sort of effort to reestablish trust lost by the entire dev cheating issue:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=479988
If invention is linked to reestablishing "trust," and if it's meant to replace the tech II BPO lottery, then we ought to expect something that will let us fairly compete with those players who apparently gained their tech II BPOs via dev cheating. And the current invention system is just not doing that, and players ought to be asking some hard questions here. And we shouldn't be silenced for discussing these matters if CCP wants to reestablish "trust."
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Oiri Yusko
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.05.14 03:00:00 -
[23]
While there may have been "cheating," that is not what I am here to enforce. Trolling an alliance because they may have received dev assistance is still trolling. That is what I am here to enforce.
I snipped off-topic trolling portions from posts. Once again, please do not troll.
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari
Khanid Aerospace Group
Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.14 04:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: The Comatorium
Thing is... i dont want to make 8 succesful tries out of 20 if it is to be some crappy named 2 runs blueprints.
Is it worth for a small combat related corporation to Invest into 2-3 labs for invention to t2 gear their members?
If you use max run input BPCs you get 10 run output BPCs with all modules, and you get real T2 BPCs, you don't get "named" item BPCs or random numbers of output runs.
As for whether it's worth it to supply all or most of your own T2 gear? No, certainly not. With invention only a fairly small number of items are all that profitable (can be made at a cost lower than they sell at). You can't just make anything you want and make it at a cost lower than you could just buy it at in Jita or something. Get into invention if you want to profit from it, not to make your own gear.
I invent what's profitable, sell it, then buy whatever else I want.
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mamolian
Vortex.
Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.14 05:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Chia Mulholland
If invention is meant to replace T2 BPOs, then it's broken. It works for expensive T2 ships and modules. But if T2 BPOs were removed tomorrow, that'd be the end of T2 ammo.
*******s. It just wouldnt be cheap.
-------------------------------
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Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari
Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.14 11:45:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Invention is borked dont bother until it gets more ballanced
You want to back that up? You have numbers? A process of logic and rational insight? Or is it just another forum warrior whine that is so common because someone feels something isn't exactly like s/he wants it?
Right now, invention has driven the cost of Hulks to under 200 million from pushing 600 million late last year. Right now, invention for ammunition isn't really risk/reward cost effective. Other things have their price/points/efficiencies some being greatly profitable to resource, others... Not so much.
Phoenix Logistics Industries |
Tredegar
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:12:00 -
[27]
I don't believe that invention was meant to mollify the people upset by what happened at CCP. Invention is what reverse engineering was supposed to be. Well, at least in a highly modified form. Reverse engineering was one reason why I wanted to play Eve. Talk about disappointment when I found out I couldn't reverse engineer something. But hey, invention works. It is providing a low cost alternative to what people used to pay for items. Yes, it hurts the T2 bpo holders, but nothing lasts forever.
"I may be a craven little coward, but I'm a greedy craven little coward." Daffy Duck |
Golden Helmet
Caldari
Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2007.05.18 11:46:00 -
[28]
Stopped reading a few posts down. But in response to those saying that invention isn't profitable: if you think that, you're not trying hard enough (and this is coming from a pirate wanting a lazy isk making scheme. By "try hard", i mean "use you're head")
Just in the last 2 days I've gotten an easy 100m worth of BPC's waiting for me to build them. Just don't go for the uber priced items, they tend to cost more to invent and fluctuate greatly. I buy all my datacores and base items from the market, and still make a good profit.
Easiest way I've found to make a profit: Find an item that, for each sucess, you can pay for at least two more invention attempts, assuming you're quick-selling the built items. Get Encryptions 4, supports 3 (4 preferably), and for some reason doing them in batches seems to help (may just be coincidence though). I often don't bother with decryptors, but ALWAYS use at least the second-third best named item.
Most of the items I do are 30-40% success at worst, and each success pays for at least two more tries (usually 3-4). Once the market crashes from spamming it, move on to the next item. My particular area... sekrit
On the note of batches, has anyone else noticed that? I dunno if it's just me or just my luck, but when I do batches, I usually get at worst a 50% sucess rate (so often so that I've decided the first invention job i collect is the sucessfull one, so I pick the more valuable BPC to collect first), if not more. I've had a few 100% fails and a few 100% successes, but generally, doing single invention jobs at a time for some reason seems to have lower chances of success. Just my imagination, or did I stumble on to something \ not hear about something somewhere?
/me goes back to podding stuff
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