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CCP, when do consider your server design a failure?

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El Wray	Posted - 2007.05.13 19:58:00 - [1] The one server design is a major selling point for Eve, all players playing together in one world. And at every chance CCP posts on their front page of new records of total concurrent users and awards they have won. Yet here I sit at a black loading screen, for the last 30 minutes, waiting to log in to the game. Yes I am in Jita, but why should that matter? If your players cannot play, then your design is a failure.
Mei Shin	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:10:00 - [2] I hope you realize this is not _one _ server but a cluster of servers. It would not matter if they split it up in different "servers". The one thing they can do, however, is to upgrade the cluster servers that take the load from heavy load nodes like Jita. Seems like you have a better solution to the lag problems, so lets hear it.
Karunel Princeps Corp YouWhat	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:16:00 - [3] Why do people log out in Jita? It's beyond me tbh. ____ Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
Carebear Stare D.i.l.l.i.g.a.f	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:19:00 - [4] Originally by: El Wray The one server design is a major selling point for Eve, all players playing together in one world. And at every chance CCP posts on their front page of new records of total concurrent users and awards they have won. Yet here I sit at a black loading screen, for the last 30 minutes, waiting to log in to the game. Yes I am in Jita, but why should that matter? If your players cannot play, then your design is a failure. You are making kieron cry... give him a hug and apologize.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:23:00 - [5] There is one point of failure in the cluster design in that although you can have one node run many systems you can only have one system one one node. This creates an upper limit in what load a system can handle before running into trouble, which can be alleviated to a certain degree through hardware/software optimisations and upgrades but nevertheless is an obstacle that probably needs to be overcome at some point in the future for Eve to keep growing. All in all CCP have put a huge amount of work and investment into the cluster as well as the game itself including buying some of the most state of the art hardware and should be given credit for what they have achieved so far. No things are not perfect, but then again they probably never will be and the same could be said about any other MMO out there.
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:27:00 - [6] Edited by: Robert Dobbs on 13/05/2007 20:28:29 EVE would not be the mighty game it is today if it weren't for CCP's innovative design. You must be new to the game; if you were an experienced player you would know that EVE is the community. Split the community up and you break the game. I have friends in the community, We have a lot of enemies. It would not be the same game if two thirds of those people were gone. Edit: Oh, and by the way, go check out the amount of lag on "sharded" games like World of Warcraft and LOTRO some time. ~Dobbs - --------- DukeHeart > We dont like those terms, Phoenix does not agree.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:27:00 - [7] Try it again, I just logged into Jita on first try, took less than 2 minutes. And YES, I just took YOUR spot! hehe
El Wray	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Mei Shin I hope you realize this is not _one _ server but a cluster of servers. It would not matter if they split it up in different "servers". The one thing they can do, however, is to upgrade the cluster servers that take the load from heavy load nodes like Jita. Seems like you have a better solution to the lag problems, so lets hear it. I believe you are talking about blade servers, I am speaking of the "server" Tranquility as it labeled on the Login screen. And the only solution I have to suggest is a rewrite of the network and load balancing code, because that is really the only solution.
Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:30:00 - [9] Originally by: El Wray Yes I am in Jita, but why should that matter? If your players cannot play, then your design is a failure. It is not CCP's responsibility to fix Jita. It is the players. Spread out, create more local markets. I never understand why people all bunch up in one place and sell their stuff undercutting against each other. Personally I would pay a little extra to avoid Rens and Jita and frequently do when I am in the area. You get 6 orders in Rens for the same item all within 1000 isk of each other battling for the top spot on the list, and one 2 jumps away for maybe 100,000 isk more. I'll take the one two jumps away and avoid the grief thank you very much. And when other players realise that and do the same instead of bunching up and creating the very problem they moan about then eve will be a better place. Otherwise CCP will only manage to please these people by making eve one system only and delete everything else in EVE to free server power. And where is the fun in that. 4,999 other systems out there people. Get flying. ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal
El Wray	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Karunel Why do people log out in Jita? It's beyond me tbh. Why should not be able to log out in Jita? Did CCP post something somewhere that I missed stating that their game is not working as intended and to travel to remote regions before logging out to prevent the inability to log in?

MassonA Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:30:00 - [11] Edited by: MassonA on 13/05/2007 20:28:34 i know people say constantly about avoiding jita at all costs, but to be honest we are paying for the game, so we have every right to visit jita without suffering from this sort of "play", if it can even be called that edit: ^^ both posted the same thing at the same time
glennkari Gallente Lions Club	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:30:00 - [12] One solution to the Jita problem is to make ppl auto logout if there inactive. But this will of course make all kinds of other problems for the rest of eve. Personaly i try to stay out of Jita.
El Wray	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Robert Dobbs Edited by: Robert Dobbs on 13/05/2007 20:28:29 EVE would not be the mighty game it is today if it weren't for CCP's innovative design. You must be new to the game; if you were an experienced player you would know that EVE is the community. Split the community up and you break the game. I have friends in the community, We have a lot of enemies. It would not be the same game if two thirds of those people were gone. Edit: Oh, and by the way, go check out the amount of lag on "sharded" games like World of Warcraft and LOTRO some time. ~Dobbs I am not asking for the game world to be split, I am asking that the server be fixed to allow the game to work as intended.
Stakhanov Shih Yang Tong	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:33:00 - [14] Originally by: El Wray Yes I am in Jita, but why should that matter? If your players cannot play, then your design is a failure. Wrong conclusion. You are a failure
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:34:00 - [15] Edited by: Robert Dobbs on 13/05/2007 20:39:58 Originally by: El Wray I am not asking for the game world to be split, I am asking that the server be fixed to allow the game to work as intended. CCP need to develop better load balancing, of that there is no doubt. But your original argument, that the concept of a single universe for all players is flawed - I disagree with to much extent. I think that the lag suffered in Jita is a minor inconvenience which will eventually be fixed. What is more of an issue is that currently, due to the system design, you can jump into an empty system which HAPPENS to share a node with a heavily populated system, and experience the same lag. Not to mention that any really epic fleet battles are virtually unplayable. And for the record, I do agree that players should be able to congregate in one spot to trade, that is one of the benefits of CCP's game design. And you can bet your ass that CCP are working on making the gaming experience better for ALL players. After all, we are their livelihood, right? - --------- DukeHeart > We dont like those terms, Phoenix does not agree.
Shzanzia The Arrow Project	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:39:00 - [16] Edited by: Shzanzia on 13/05/2007 20:38:00 Question. Why doesn't CCP just Instance the Stations in Jita...and place all the Jita stations on a separate node from the Jita local?? that would in essence make Jita 2 nodes yes?
El Wray	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Robert Dobbs Edited by: Robert Dobbs on 13/05/2007 20:36:24 Originally by: El Wray I am not asking for the game world to be split, I am asking that the server be fixed to allow the game to work as intended. CCP need to develop better load balancing, of that there is no doubt. But your original argument, that the concept of a single universe for all players is flawed - I disagree with to much extent. And for the record, I do agree that players should be able to congregate in one spot to trade, that is one of the benefits of CCP's game design. And you can bet your ass that CCP are working on making the gaming experience better for ALL players. After all, we are their livelihood, right? Ok, I meant to say their implentation of a single game world is the failure. I too agree that it is a single game world is what makes Eve what it is, and that was one of the reason I chose to play this game. But for the love of god, all I want to do is set a skill before I head to Mom's house and I havent been able to log in for the hour+.
El Wray	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Stakhanov Originally by: El Wray Yes I am in Jita, but why should that matter? If your players cannot play, then your design is a failure. Wrong conclusion. You are a failure You sir are a genius. /sarcasm
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:42:00 - [19] I think we are all learning now why other MMOG's do sharding, for better and for worse. I like the one server as much as the next guy, but teh fact is the more people join the game, the more people crowd into Jita and the baby Jitas and itll only get progressively worse over time. So basically, either the population stops increasing and the game goes stale, or it keeps increasing and so does the lag. It sucks, but them's the breaks. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Del Narveux I think we are all learning now why other MMOG's do sharding, for better and for worse. I like the one server as much as the next guy, but teh fact is the more people join the game, the more people crowd into Jita and the baby Jitas and itll only get progressively worse over time. So basically, either the population stops increasing and the game goes stale, or it keeps increasing and so does the lag. It sucks, but them's the breaks. Not so. This situation is fixable. As a network programmer, I know I could create a solution to this problem, if I were tasked to do so. The only problem is, it would require an ENTIRE rework of the underlying net code, cluster and routing. A big job. It would require extensive pre-planning, and months of testing before it could be implemented. Until this happens, i'll just avoid Jita. It's not such a big problem. - --------- DukeHeart > We dont like those terms, Phoenix does not agree.

Nicholas Barker Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:53:00 - [21] if they make the server any more powerful it'll fire nukes at russia and send clusters back in time to kill off Eris before she has a child that will save humanity! THINK OF ERIS! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!! --- - We lost that fight - Quick, smack'em in local or they'll think they won!
Xelios Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Nicholas Barker if they make the server any more powerful it'll fire nukes at russia and send clusters back in time to kill off Eris before she has a child that will save humanity! THINK OF ERIS! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!! I'll have whatever he's having
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:29:00 - [23] Originally by: El Wray Originally by: Karunel Why do people log out in Jita? It's beyond me tbh. Why should not be able to log out in Jita? Did CCP post something somewhere that I missed stating that their game is not working as intended and to travel to remote regions before logging out to prevent the inability to log in? My government says the traffic is fine in the cities. But if you go there you are in a heavy traffic jam. Do i have to avoid regions with heavy traffic then? I guess so... Btw im paying taxes to my government also, so they should fix it asap! Dont talk about Jita! Do NOT talk about Jita!
Aero089 Exiled.	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:31:00 - [24] EVE's strongest point also makes it very fragile. Many people fail to realize that this community is able to talk about and discuss events that are going on in the world of EVE right now, and everything is crystal clear. Why? Because it is one world where nobody is separated. If an alliance takes over a region, EVERYONE will have to live with it (and deal with it). This singular on-going story is what makes EVE so strong as a community-spirited game. But because the players are always able to meet up and have strong bonds through media such as these very forums, groups can grow as large as they can get, stressing server nodes to a point where they simply cannot handle everything that is going on. Many people think that when a server has reached it's limit, a handful of extra players wouldn't influence the server performance that much. The very opposite is true actually, see it as a funnel. Every player needs an X amount of sand grains (data packets), and needs even more as he/she is performing actions in the game. The narrow end can only let a certain amount of sand grains through (connection/data processing) meaning that slowly but surely, the pile of sand that needs to pass through stacks up over time. Until the weight grows too heavy. Poof, node crashed. We are throwing ourselves at a wall right now. Alliance will always try to field more numbers than their opponent and now that EVE's playerbase has grown so far, they are able to accumulate such heavy numbers that the servers can't cope with it. Unless CCP spends their entire fortune on one of those Quantum Computers or whatever they are called, I doubt that a single node can host fleet battles with more than 300 participants. - (Exiled. Recruitment (CEO
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:35:00 - [25] Heh, Jita's a problem of their own making. Its a central system to the Caldari newbie worlds. Which race dominates the PvE field? The Caldari. Where are the vast majority of new players? Caldari Space. Where will the vast bulk of replacement components be needed? Caldari Space. Nothing screams massive imbalance like a major skew in population distribution. The flaw in the game isn't the server set up, its the failure of CCP to acknowledge that PvE players will always outnumber PvP players. Dozens of MMOs have demonstrated this over and over and over again. Create PvP and PvE servers, PvE servers get the larger populations. Create PvP and PvE content, PvE content gets used more often. They have a naturally more capable PvE race than all others, and guess where the majority of the playerbase gravitated to? You get one guess. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Crimsonjade Zer0 ToLeRaNcE Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:40:00 - [26] Originally by: El Wray The one server design is a major selling point for Eve, all players playing together in one world. And at every chance CCP posts on their front page of new records of total concurrent users and awards they have won. Yet here I sit at a black loading screen, for the last 30 minutes, waiting to log in to the game. Yes I am in Jita, but why should that matter? If your players cannot play, then your design is a failure. can i have your stuff? but seriously.. can i have your stuff.. everything i wanna say would get moderated so ill say.. if its a problem, quit and gimme your stuff
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:41:00 - [27] Originally by: El Wray The one server design is a major selling point for Eve, all players playing together in one world. And at every chance CCP posts on their front page of new records of total concurrent users and awards they have won. Yet here I sit at a black loading screen, for the last 30 minutes, waiting to log in to the game. Yes I am in Jita, but why should that matter? If your players cannot play, then your design is a failure. you know, I dont feel sorry for you in the slightest. It have been said before and I will repeat it: Get out of Jita! The 1 server 1 world is also one of the things that makes EVE Special! And OH! I consider EVE a SUCCESS! Both from my point of view and from the game point of view. It is impossible in this light to view EVE as a failure! If you dont like the game, go to WoW or some other online game! I dont care what game! They should give you enough servers to play on! Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Moghwai Minmatar r.evolution 8	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Robert Dobbs Not so. This situation is fixable. As a network programmer, I know I could create a solution to this problem, if I were tasked to do so. The only problem is, it would require an ENTIRE rework of the underlying net code, cluster and routing. A big job. It would require extensive pre-planning, and months of testing before it could be implemented. Until this happens, i'll just avoid Jita. It's not such a big problem. on a slightly related sidenote, this isnt a networking problem at all. The underlying Problem is that only one Thread (i.e. System) is able to run on only one CPU (be it HT`ed or not). Sure you could split up Systems alot more dedicating Stations, Belts, Complexes to another node but imagine the cry`s if we get a Session change if we leave Belts, Complexes or even a particular Grid. Wouldnt be that seemless warping anymore if you load another Session every lets say 500km. It`s simlpy a "cant fix this" Situation, in no way related to any Hardware or Software or Programmers/Administrators skills.
Araxmas The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2007.05.13 22:33:00 - [29] Originally by: El Wray Originally by: Karunel Why do people log out in Jita? It's beyond me tbh. Why should not be able to log out in Jita? Did CCP post something somewhere that I missed stating that their game is not working as intended and to travel to remote regions before logging out to prevent the inability to log in? No Jita is not working as intended. -------- Robbie Rotten left me
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.05.13 22:41:00 - [30] Originally by: Araxmas Originally by: El Wray Originally by: Karunel Why do people log out in Jita? It's beyond me tbh. Why should not be able to log out in Jita? Did CCP post something somewhere that I missed stating that their game is not working as intended and to travel to remote regions before logging out to prevent the inability to log in? No Jita is not working as intended. There is nothing wrong with Jita! The problem lies solely with the playerbase who go there even if they know the server pressure is too high! Lets take an example from real life. I dont know how many inhabitants London have, but lets say 5 million for the sake of this exmaple. Now, London I guess you can say is working OK today. Maybe a little crowded as most large metropolises. But lets say 10 more millions moved within the city borders? Lets say 20 millions? First. there is not housing enough to cater for the number. second, the logisitcs would break down because there would not be enough roads to handle the flow of all the cars. What would get?? Traffic problems. Hours in queues and accidents. etc. Its not the fault of the city. Its not the fault of Jita. Its all player or manbased problem. If people started to move out of Jita - or in my example London - the problem would be solved again. The infrastructure can only handle so and so much pressure. Be it from computers or the roadmap/trainmap. Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11



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