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Cyclone & Tier1 BC's, The unintended victim of the shield nerf! Why?

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Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:22:00 - [1] So here we are, the drake has a mighty passive tank through the use of every medium and low slot and can withstand concentrated fire from a battleship for a little while. Then due to the complaints by the noisy few, CCP decides to give a blanket nerf to All Battlecruisers, tier1 and tier2. In this what do we end up with? Cyclone the only battlecruiser with an active shield tank bonus getting a nerf to its shield recharge. Nice very Nice. This ship needed some love before, now its crying out for it! Perhaps its true, We all can see that if a ship gets a passive resist bonus / level to its shields, the pilot will find a way to use it effectively. Hence passive tanking was born. But why nerf all the battlecruisers and particularly the shield tanking battlecruisers? This doesn't hurt armor tanks, shields are merely a buffer for a few seconds to them. This hurts shields. So let me ask, why must all the battlecruisers have the same shield recharge times? CCP your lazy, do some real fixes and keep a balance going without nerfing unintentionally other ships that got in range of the nerf gun. Not happy.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:27:00 - [2] At least teh Cyclone gets a bonus to ACTIVE shields, ie boosting. The poor Ferox gets its resistance bonus and an almost worthless rail bonus. The Cyclone survives, the Ferox goes from (as one person put it) "flat-lined" to buried...... At least both of them are actually selling for under mineral value <-----------> Factional Warefare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:58:00 - [3] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby At least teh Cyclone gets a bonus to ACTIVE shields, ie boosting. The poor Ferox gets its resistance bonus and an almost worthless rail bonus. The Cyclone survives, the Ferox goes from (as one person put it) "flat-lined" to buried...... At least both of them are actually selling for under mineral value Yeah the Ferox and Cyclone both need some love, honestly this is of poor taste and balance.
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:14:00 - [4] The cyclone came out as a winner when they changed the tier1 battlecruisers. It still has 1 more slot than the other 3. A shield recharge nerf doesn't hurt active tanks much. They don't rely on their passive recharge to get their shields up. Also a resistance bonus doesn't imply than a ship has to passively tank. Why does the prophecy tank well? Because of the resistance bonus. And armor doesn't recharge. In fact a resistance bonus is usually better than a boost/repair bonus because it also works when you don't activate a module. In my opinion the tanking abilities of both ships are rather fine. The only thing that needs changing is the amount of turret slots on the ferox. Forsch Defender of the empire
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Nian Banks We all can see that if a ship gets a passive resist bonus / level to its shields, the pilot will find a way to use it effectively. Hence passive tanking was born. But why nerf all the battlecruisers and particularly the shield tanking battlecruisers? This doesn't hurt armor tanks, shields are merely a buffer for a few seconds to them. This hurts shields. So let me ask, why must all the battlecruisers have the same shield recharge times? CCP your lazy, do some real fixes and keep a balance going without nerfing unintentionally other ships that got in range of the nerf gun. Not happy. HA HA HA On the subject at hand, you are whining at the fact that nerfing is done, or that nerfing is done on caldari bc's; from your post i cannot make this distinction. Why not all BC's should have the same recharge time ? All cruisers have the same recharge time, and i bet all BS's, frigs, destroyers too. PS: Before you continue whining realize that this doesn't affect just caldari ppl or caldari bc fliers. This also affects minmatarr ships and gallente ships. -------------------------------------------------- http://dojo.fi/~rancid/loituma__.swfAlways look on the bright side
Futuris Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:30:00 - [6] Ferox definitely needs some love...
Azuse The Brotherhood Of The Blade The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:48:00 - [7] Ferox is fine the way it is, or rather it would be if it was used properly. Rokh has identical bonuses, it's a sniper. Your "usless" resistance bonuses is there because you're supposed to have boosters and tarcking comps fitted. It is the only bc that can sit outside of lowsec sentries and nail haullers (160km range), which it does far cheaper than any bs. You can also push its scan res to 900, and if you have a gang mods Ferox can boost their rsists and shield recharge. There is no other bc with a 160km optimal, if you fit missels on it don't whine when a cruiser kills you, if you try and use a sniper at close range expect to die.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.13 23:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Azuse Ferox is fine the way it is, or rather it would be if it was used properly. Rokh has identical bonuses, it's a sniper. Your "usless" resistance bonuses is there because you're supposed to have boosters and tarcking comps fitted. It is the only bc that can sit outside of lowsec sentries and nail haullers (160km range), which it does far cheaper than any bs. You can also push its scan res to 900, and if you have a gang mods Ferox can boost their rsists and shield recharge. There is no other bc with a 160km optimal, if you fit missels on it don't whine when a cruiser kills you, if you try and use a sniper at close range expect to die. I said nothing about resistance bonuses being useless. 160km optimal, at what? 4 damage a hit? Using T2 guns and ammo. The guns cost more than the ship and the skills to use them take more than the ship by a long shot. How many Ferox do you see out there that are not mission runners with missile racks in the highs and a passive shield tank? Its grid is insufficient to be able to mount a full brace of its good guns without maxed skills and its cap recharge is insufficient to keep up with those guns and even a mediocre tank. To make the Rox work well: Increase its cap recharge 5% to help handle an active tank without requiring boosters within a few minutes, increase its grid slightly so it can mount a full brace of guns when fitted by players that would normally be in BCs, give it the 6th gun slot it needs to compete with other ships of its class. Turn it into a gun boat instead of a bastardized missile platform. Right now the only thing it does well is passive tank and is cheap for new players with their first real ship. The other tier 1 BCs out do it in everything but passive tanking (and maybe hitting someone at long range with damage equal to an Ibis). <-----------> Factional Warefare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Futuris Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.05.13 23:57:00 - [9] Edited by: Futuris on 13/05/2007 23:54:59 Ferox might be "fine", but for example compared to a Brutix, it's a non-ship.
Guerr	Posted - 2007.05.14 00:35:00 - [10] did i miss a patch or something here? what nerf to shields on bc's are you talking about?
xHalcyonx Amarr EmpiresMod	Posted - 2007.05.14 00:38:00 - [11] Originally by: Setana Manoro PS: Before you continue whining realize that this doesn't affect just caldari ppl or caldari bc fliers. This also affects minmatarr ships and gallente ships. Did they finally delete Amarr?
Copine Callmeknau Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.14 00:55:00 - [12] This really shouldn't affect your cyclone too much, if you've got it setup correctly you shold be boosting 10%+ of your shield HP every few seconds. Won't ever be at peak recharge long enough to make a difference. ----- Originally by: Uncle Chop Chop Harden the **** up
RogueWing Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 01:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Azuse Ferox is fine the way it is, or rather it would be if it was used properly. Rokh has identical bonuses, it's a sniper. A Rokh also has ALL of it's high slots able to mount sniping weapons. The Ferox can only mount 5 turrents and 2 non turrents. Give it 7 turrents, THEN it will be the Rokh's little brother.
Megan Maynard Minmatar RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.05.14 02:01:00 - [14] LOL, more whining. Cyclone and ferox are BOTH tier 1 ships. I recently bought a cyclone for.......... 19.5 million isk. They are cheap and simple, not expensive and fancy. Use them as such. They need no love. (Plus, that is gross.)
Cairo dog Gallente Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.14 02:02:00 - [15] Ever used a Blasterox? Those things are not useless. ------------------------------------- Rawr
Ecky X The Aforementioned	Posted - 2007.05.14 04:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Cairo dog Ever used a Blasterox? Those things are not useless. What can it do that a Brutix can't? You cannot passive tank one while using guns, since you'll run out of cap in 30 seconds. They are also slow, and give up midslots for microwarp drives and webs. Also, even with the lows filled with damage mods, the Brutix will do more damage since it has more turret hardpoints and a damage bonus. Both have the potential to tank similarly, assuming the Ferox doesn't use its mids for anything but tank... and the Brutix has twice the drone bay. ??? -----
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.05.14 05:00:00 - [17] Regardless of what the nay sayers have to say, the Cyclone and Ferox both were nerfed in the crossfire when the drake was the intended target. You say its a minimal nerf so don't worry about it? Lol that's one heck of a weak argument, any and I mean ANY nerf that affects ships that are already unpopular due to lack of love, need to be buffed in some way to counteract it. All this does is give a buff to armor tanking battlecruisers at the expense of shield tankers. Hence, not cool.
Drazhar Kain Alpha Production Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.14 06:00:00 - [18] 1250 to 1400 seconds. 150 second increase. 12%. A 12% increase in recharge time. If you regened 100dps before, you would now regen 89.3dps. THE END OF THE WORLD IS NEAR!!! OMG IT'S DEATH ON HIS PALE HORSE!!!!
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.05.14 06:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Drazhar Kain 1250 to 1400 seconds. 150 second increase. 12%. A 12% increase in recharge time. If you regened 100dps before, you would now regen 89.3dps. THE END OF THE WORLD IS NEAR!!! OMG IT'S DEATH ON HIS PALE HORSE!!!! Actually when something is already in need of a buff and it gets a nerf, thats prity bloody bad. Tho I don't expect you to understand that, its a conceptual problem and its hard for most people to grasp.
Drazhar Kain Alpha Production Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.14 06:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Nian Banks Originally by: Drazhar Kain 1250 to 1400 seconds. 150 second increase. 12%. A 12% increase in recharge time. If you regened 100dps before, you would now regen 89.3dps. THE END OF THE WORLD IS NEAR!!! OMG IT'S DEATH ON HIS PALE HORSE!!!! Actually when something is already in need of a buff and it gets a nerf, thats prity bloody bad. Tho I don't expect you to understand that, its a conceptual problem and its hard for most people to grasp. And you are the decider of what needs buffing or nerfing? I'll leave these things up to more competent people, or at the very least, people who can spell. And to the point, the Cyclone's passive shield resist: A non-passively tanked Cyclone (and if you are passively tanking a cyclone, you are throwing away one of it's bonuses) naturally regens 10.548 shield per second, at peak- around 30-33%. After the nerf, it will regen 9.418 shield per second at peak. You are arguing over 1.13 shield per second. On a battlecruiser. Though, I don't expect you to grasp that, it is quite a difficult concept to understand.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.05.14 06:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Drazhar Kain Originally by: Nian Banks Originally by: Drazhar Kain 1250 to 1400 seconds. 150 second increase. 12%. A 12% increase in recharge time. If you regened 100dps before, you would now regen 89.3dps. THE END OF THE WORLD IS NEAR!!! OMG IT'S DEATH ON HIS PALE HORSE!!!! Actually when something is already in need of a buff and it gets a nerf, thats pretty bloody bad. Tho I don't expect you to understand that, its a conceptual problem and its hard for most people to grasp. And you are the decider of what needs buffing or nerfing? I'll leave these things up to more competent people, or at the very least, people who can spell. And to the point, the Cyclone's passive shield resist: A non-passively tanked Cyclone (and if you are passively tanking a cyclone, you are throwing away one of it's bonuses) naturally regens 10.548 shield per second, at peak- around 30-33%. After the nerf, it will regen 9.418 shield per second at peak. You are arguing over 1.13 shield per second. On a battlecruiser. Though, I don't expect you to grasp that, it is quite a difficult concept to understand. So you admit its a nerf? A nerf to shield tanks. Shield tanking ships that many consider no longer worth piloting. If a ships unpopular there's a reason. Thats pretty damned simple really. On the other hand you have armor tanking ships that can fit their medium slots full of ewar and a speed mod and they are grinning ear to ear from this nerf.
Liang Nuren Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.14 07:20:00 - [22] There are probably better ways to ask for a boost to the Ferox and Cyclone than throwing wild accusations and personal insults around. Now, take the Ferox: its unlikely to get a damage bonus, because ALL BC's have a tank bonus. You're much better asking for a full rack of turrets up top, and an extra mid (for tank) or low slot (for gank). Liang My opinions are my own, and do not in any way reflect the beliefs of my corp/alliance. I feel the need for speed!
Scraqp Advocates	Posted - 2007.05.14 07:26:00 - [23] drazhar... dont waste your energy. he wont understand it. it seems "passive" tanking the cyclone has saved his ass several times lol btw nerf minmatar, gallente, amarr cause caldari are shield tanking and thats bad... or something like that. seriously. u need to rethink your definition of nerf. it u lose 0,000001 hp regen per second u d still call it a nerf. yes it is a """nerf""", but it will hardly affect the ship. u dont get a penalty to shield boosting dude, it just takes slightly longer to passive regenerate. something that WONT decide the outcome in a pvp battle. u can do quite some nice things with the cyclone with right skills and fittings.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.05.14 07:49:00 - [24] Actually guys no matter what small % it is, a nerf is still a nerf. If something that already needed a buff is nerfed its not a good thing, no matter how you look at it. Your counter is "Don't worry its not much of a nerf" but that doesn't cut it, Nerfing is generally thought to be an unacceptable habit that gaming companies seem to get into. It can't be helped ofcourse, they don't have the time or resources to fully test what they implement. Still if one taketh away with one hand then you should giveth in thine other. Hence Balancing. I don't mind balance, but blanket nerfs royally **** me off. If you don't mind blanket nerfs then I can understand why you comment as you do. And you should understand why I snap back.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.14 08:30:00 - [25] As was said alread multiple times before the cyclone is an active tanker. Only a complete moron would try to passive tank it. Yes, yes, it also got 0.8 less shieldrecharge/sec. I am sure that will be a regular life-death difference for it. cough Claiming that that will HURT the cyclone is plain out rediculous. Feel free to keep insisting on principle that it got nerfed, but this "nerf" has no real effect for it. The ferox is another thing of cource. Personally I would say give it a 6 turret/4 launcher already.

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