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Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6517
   |
Posted - 2017.05.29 00:17:34 -
[1] - Quote
Dotaros Kolar wrote:It' about time for ccp to do their job and control the market via maximum prices for all items.....
It's getting out of hand....
Cut it all at 75% of the current situation......
A little more socialism is not wrong.....
Yes, because not having a ship at all is so much better than paying a high price for one. 
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6521
|
Posted - 2017.05.29 19:30:58 -
[2] - Quote
Skorpynekomimi wrote:Selling ships at a profit is about more than just 'haul it to Jita and set up a sell order'. You have to pay attention to supply and demand, and price accordingly.
For example, a shuttle in Jita is juuust about mineral cost. Selling it a jump or two into lowsec? You can charge two, three times that. Especially if you know the system and can sneak a crapton in with a big hauler when nobody's around. Deeper into lowsec, you can price them higher.
Exactly. I can't tell you how many times I have paid 100,000 ISK for a shuttle because it was there in a LS system and I wanted that extra bit of protection around my pod (yes, yes, Capt. Obvious, I'd still die to a smart bombing BS).
If you sell where there is tremendous competition price will be largely driven down the marginal cost...which is the same as average cost in this game.
Econ 101, please learn it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6523
|
Posted - 2017.05.29 19:58:23 -
[3] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:
[snip]
increasing the cost means existing caps are worth 10% more
Only if the price elasticity of each mineral is 1.
JC Mieyli wrote:that means there is no incentive to build new caps when they cant compete with existing caps in cost
No, existing caps will also see their value go up too. This is a common mistake people who do not understand economics make all the time. I see it here in California when ever a gas refinery goes offline due to unscheduled maintenance (i.e. something broke unexpectedly). The price of gasoline goes up. People are outraged because they, incorrectly, reason that the gas in the tanks at the station was produced before the refinery went offline. But what the refinery going offline means is that less gas is going to be produced so that not only will future gasoline will be more expensive, but the existing stock is also more expensive because. So current caps will also become more valuable.
JC Mieyli wrote:if theres no incentive to build theres no incentive to buy minerals until the old stock of caps is expired and who knows how long that could take (if ever)
No, see the above.
Please take some time to learn some basic economics. And I mean really learn it. When markets get new information they react to them immediately. Markets and market participants do not wait around for things like this. For example, if I learn of this change and I trade in cap ships I'd want to buy as many as I could at the current price before the (at least some of the) manufacturers see their costs go up. My increased buying today will raise the price of caps today. As others see these prices going up they'll want to buy sooner vs. later as well. Either players speculating on cap prices or players who want a capital ship for their own use.
For example, consider the following:
You are a pig farmer. The price of pig feed goes up. What happens to the price of pork in the grocery store? You might be thinking, it will go up. And eventually it will. But early on it could quite possibly go down. The marginal pig farmers might decide to shut down operations and as a result slaughter all their pigs and sell the meat which temporarily increases the supply of pork at the grocery store.
And stop it with the doomsday scenarios. OMG, this increase in requirements will KILL the market. Please, the histrionics totally undermines your position. We have seen changes in requirements for things in game before and guess what, the markets continue to chug along quite nicely.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6524
|
Posted - 2017.05.29 21:11:38 -
[4] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No, existing caps will also see their value go up too. i know thats my whole point dont think i dont understand this stuff just because youre trying to compensate for a badly implemented system by saying sell it somewhere else no one is gonna pay 1.9bn for a providence in genesis when they can pay 1.1bn for one in domain
Well seeing that the OP is talking about t2 components from moon goo...a providence does not need t2 components.
Further, it appears to just be those inputs. And considering that they are only a fraction of the costs it is not clear that the price will increase by 10%. In looking at the market for JFs their prices are not that different.
And you appear to be conflating regional price differentials vs. construction costs.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6525
|
Posted - 2017.05.29 21:35:41 -
[5] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:Quote:Please take some time to learn some basic economics. And I mean really learn it. are you always this patronising i already know what happens and its not what you say happens Teckos Pech wrote:OMG, this increase in requirements will KILL the market. Please, the histrionics totally undermines your position. We have seen changes in requirements for things in game before and guess what, the markets continue to chug along quite nicely. now youre just putting words in my mouth for the sake of typing crap you learnt at school the markets chug along nicely for those already established in those markets very nicely because they see the value of all their crap go up and make a nice profit everyone else can suck it because they cant compete when the established traders are selling for less than the mineral cost
No, you said there will be no incentive to build, that is wrong. And thus there will be no incentive to buy minerals, and that too is wrong. Wrong because in looking at the OPs picture this is regarding T2 components not minerals AND minerals have other uses than simply capital production. The only T2 capital ship in the game are JFs. This is a slight change to one class of ships. All this nonsense about how nobody is going to buy this or that is just hysterical nonsense.
And please, markets are there for everyone to get involved with. Markets are there for new players and established players. New players tend to be consumers more than producers, but that is working as intended. CCP put in various skills relating to the market activities and manufacturing knowing full well that it will take players time to get involved. And if this barrier to entry allows for established market participants to raise prices due to some degree of market power, that creates an opening and incentive for new market participants to enter and compete.
And costs going up is not a recipe for increased profits. Firms are always looking to reduce costs, not raise them. Costs are a bad thing. A firm can always arbitrarily raise costs by paying 2x for the inputs. But no firm ever does that as it cannot turn around and sell whatever it is making for 2x or more. So again, learn some economics.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6525
|
Posted - 2017.05.29 21:45:38 -
[6] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And you appear to be conflating regional price differentials vs. construction costs. well it was your idea to sell it somewhere else if you want to make a profit anyway all im saying is the economic model of the game can use some improvements especially with industry and especially where newer players are concerned what i see are some people being defensive and trying to belittle me i can only assume this means these people think this game has a perfect economic model and that it cant be improved on in any way
1. Yes, but there are limits to what you can charge for various items. Wealth effects are important too. That is by 5x for a shuttle is doable, paying 2x for a freighter probably not.
2. The economy in the game actually works pretty good. It behaves in many respects like one would expect. Prices go up because requirements change, players respond by supplying more of the inputs. Prices change and players react to that too in ways that one would expect.
3. Your problem is you are working of a flawed understanding of how the market process works.
4. No economic system is perfect, but the one in game works pretty damn well. We get lots of stuff that lets us play the game almost entirely due to player actions. When you think about all the coordination the market elicits one should be amazed not sit there and think they can micro-manage it to get a better outcome. That latter approach almost always fails, and badly.
This change will not have the dramatic effect everyone thinks it will. It is going to be fine.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6525
|
Posted - 2017.05.29 21:48:04 -
[7] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:look at this post Mr Epeen wrote:Ipushmyfingersintomyeyes wrote:Jump Freighters will be tipping into the 10 billion isk mark in a few weeks.
Good thing I haven't sold the last batch of Jump Freighters I built yet. Mr Epeen  this is the post i was talking about and the thread title im not talking about the moon goo or the t2 production im talking about ccp meddling with mineral costs and complaining about the damage theyve caused by doing it
Please look at the link in the OP. They are not talking about minerals. Unless there is some other change there should not be a dramatic impact to mineral prices. And if there is one, it will be to lower the price of minerals...although I doubt it will be that noticeable.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6727
|
Posted - 2017.06.22 15:04:51 -
[8] - Quote
Dotaros Kolar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dotaros Kolar wrote:It' about time for ccp to do their job and control the market via maximum prices for all items.....
It's getting out of hand....
Cut it all at 75% of the current situation......
A little more socialism is not wrong..... Yes, because not having a ship at all is so much better than paying a high price for one. If you don't need something for living and it's just the industry that is telling you you need it via comercials then -surprise- you still don't need it for living.....
Yes in a game of internet spaceships nobody needs ships.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6727
|
Posted - 2017.06.22 15:47:54 -
[9] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Its curious that NS didnt exploit the vast bounty potential before.
I dont think its particularly related to wars (or lack thereof) either.
Wasnt related to any game changes either, since afaik no changes where made to the anoms/sigs, nor the ships used to run them, before or after this activity took on such magnitude.
I suppose it was just something that as word got around became a trend as more and more people realized the huge rewards they had been overlooking.
Nerfing caps instead of the sites bounties may have been the wrong way to around "fixing" the huge amount of isk this was introducing, but it is what it is now..
Prior to the change to fighters I don't think that capability was quite there. And if you look at the time series data we can see that the growth rate of the money supply was volatile. A month of high growth followed by a month of large negative growth. These changes were averaging out close to the historical average, but then last month it took off like a rocket.
I still think the current fix is way too ham handed and that CCP should be looking for a better solution such as a new type of anomaly. This anomaly can really only be done with say either a carrier or super carrier or possibly a fleet of some kind. Nevyn made a suggestion along these lines. His idea was interesting in that the rewards would be shared with everyone on grid that is not cloaked. The idea was to promote some spontaneous cooperation. But these anomalies would help mitigate the flow of ISK into the game.
Another option suggested by baltec1 was to have agents in NS outposts and possibly even in citadels. And instead of an all ISK payout that there also be bounties as well. Obviously the LP stores/reward process would need to be re-worked so that the markets for such items do not get wrecked. The nice thing about this is that it would require less territory even for a large group. After all agents are non-rivalrous in their use. I can be talking to the agent at the exact same time you are talking to the agent, We can both get missions as well. That is agents could provide missions for 1 person in system as well as 1,000 (although with the latter TiDi might become an issue).
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6728
|
Posted - 2017.06.23 18:25:05 -
[10] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Its curious that NS didnt exploit the vast bounty potential before.
I dont think its particularly related to wars (or lack thereof) either.
Wasnt related to any game changes either, since afaik no changes where made to the anoms/sigs, nor the ships used to run them, before or after this activity took on such magnitude.
Fighters went from doing T1 battleship DPS to 3-4x that. Aggregate bounty payouts have been on their way up ever since, catalyzed by injectors. Demand for ratting carriers and supers is probably the only thing that's been propping up the mineral market the past few months.
Completely agree. Bounties haven't changed. What has changed? Fighters. And yes, the increased demand for carriers and supers might be the only thing keeping the mineral market from really tanking. And CCP can see alot of this. They can probably see where minerals go by ship/module.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6728
|
Posted - 2017.06.23 18:50:28 -
[11] - Quote
Ipushmyfingersintomyeyes wrote:I dont know how much everyone knows about where their capital ships come from but they come from components that are built from minerals. A vast quantity of these components are built at Thukker Component Assembly Arrays (POS module) and come 119.6 the bonus is being handed off to a set of Thukker Rigs for Engineering Complexes but the %ME bonus is being thrashed. If you like your capital ships being the cost they are now, you might be alarmed to know that Jump Freighters will be tipping into the 10 billion isk mark in a few weeks. http://imgur.com/a/jbaXV
And yet it hasn't happened....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
6728
|
Posted - 2017.06.23 21:01:15 -
[12] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Ipushmyfingersintomyeyes wrote:I dont know how much everyone knows about where their capital ships come from but they come from components that are built from minerals. A vast quantity of these components are built at Thukker Component Assembly Arrays (POS module) and come 119.6 the bonus is being handed off to a set of Thukker Rigs for Engineering Complexes but the %ME bonus is being thrashed. If you like your capital ships being the cost they are now, you might be alarmed to know that Jump Freighters will be tipping into the 10 billion isk mark in a few weeks. http://imgur.com/a/jbaXV And yet it hasn't happened.... I think the OP has probably overstated the percentage of caps built in lowsec thukkers Vs. built in null.
That and nerfs to fighters may have caused prices of carriers/supers to go down.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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