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Ethics about cloning...in EVE

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Marroquina	Posted - 2007.05.15 17:59:00 - [1] I was thinking (something really unusual )... Lets suppose, you are a Caldari at 18 years old, you leave your home and tell your mom you are going to be a capsuler. After sometime she receives a killmail telling her that you are dead. Few days after you appear at her doorstep telling he that you were reanimated in a new shiny clone, without remembering everything. Are you still the same person? Just have the memories and genetical signature gives you the right to fly the old body ships, dock at his POS and so on. What about if someone mistake your dead and reanimate two of you (you and a jump clone) at the same time, who has the right to live? Lol, crazy thing...
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:06:00 - [2] Originally by: Marroquina I was thinking (something really unusual )... Lets suppose, you are a Caldari at 18 years old, you leave your home and tell your mom you are going to be a capsuler. After sometime she receives a killmail telling her that you are dead. Few days after you appear at her doorstep telling he that you were reanimated in a new shiny clone, without remembering everything. Are you still the same person? Just have the memories and genetical signature gives you the right to fly the old body ships, dock at his POS and so on. What about if someone mistake your dead and reanimate two of you (you and a jump clone) at the same time, who has the right to live? Lol, crazy thing... Its a game. Leave it at that.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:09:00 - [3] Originally by: Derovius Vaden Originally by: Marroquina I was thinking (something really unusual )... Lets suppose, you are a Caldari at 18 years old, you leave your home and tell your mom you are going to be a capsuler. After sometime she receives a killmail telling her that you are dead. Few days after you appear at her doorstep telling he that you were reanimated in a new shiny clone, without remembering everything. Are you still the same person? Just have the memories and genetical signature gives you the right to fly the old body ships, dock at his POS and so on. What about if someone mistake your dead and reanimate two of you (you and a jump clone) at the same time, who has the right to live? Lol, crazy thing... Its a game. Leave it at that. It's a game, but it's fiction. Nothing wrong with discussing fiction. That last sentence made me think of The 6th Day though ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Direct Intent	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:10:00 - [4] It says somewhere in the prime fiction that as far as cloning is concerned, there is still one 'soul' no matter how many clones one has. This soul is transferred from jumpclone to jumpclone, and the medical clone process is entirely automated (neural burn scanner removes soul from exploding capsule and sends it to the medical station's mediclone). Your second scenario actually cannot happen due to the soul being a singular entity. Additionally, you cannot have a mediclone activation without the first body being destroyed: the neural burn scanner, due to its requirement for speed, destroys the brain as it scans it. Jumpclone transfers take quite a bit longer to do because of the use of slower safer, if we actually kept track ... And you pretty much do remember everything unless you forgot to update your clone contract. And it doesn't matter to your mother because she won't get a killmail, and not just because capsuleer managers aren't dumb enough to send one - so many people die that they aren't kept track of (Hands of a Killer - the main character and about 6000 others died with the ship, and none of their families were notified).
stoicfaux	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:39:00 - [5] Read the fiction. Basically, - a clone isn't a perfect copy of you: "The best clones, made from certified human cadavers in perfect condition, are able to retain up to 99.99% of memory û a figure close enough to call the revived clone a true doppelganger of the original person." - you are not your clone. You die. You clone gets a copy of your memories and thinks that he is you: "All modern capsules are highly tuned to when to take the snapshot û if it is done too early there is a chance that the subject will not die at all, but live on in a vegetative state. And if the snapshot is taken too late there is the risk that the scan will fail or even that the revived clone will remember its own death, a very traumatic experience that can introduce severe psychological and functional problems in the clone." As for souls, IMO, you die and you soul goes wherever. Your clone has its own soul. You aren't cheating death by cloning, but your clone probably thinks that you/he did. Finally, if there was a non-destructive way to take a snapshot of the brain without destroying it, you could have multiple clones of yourself running around. The clones would not be 'you', instead they would be separate individuals who share a baseline set of memories.
Matalino Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:49:00 - [6] Edited by: Matalino on 15/05/2007 18:46:55 Additionally, moral and religious objections to the work done in the field have surfaced to some extent in every society where its products have become available. ... Despite the advances made in cloning tech, in almost every single environment retransplantation of the mind at time of death is still risky ground. Pod pilots are a rare breed. Cloning is rare outside of the context of pod pilots. Those with objections to cloning are unlikely to be accepting of the whole premise of pod pilotting. I expect that in the story you relate the mother would have either been accepting of cloning or would have disowned her son as soon as he became a pod pilot. "This is what youÆll face. Madmen locked inside capsules, squandering lives as if they were nothing. When you are up there you are a tool, nothing more. A slave to the will of a pilot, bound to a man immortal until his mind can no longer be cloned."
Vorn Dakkar Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:50:00 - [7] This thread is creepy. <puts his fingers in his ears> La la la la la I can't hear any of this la la la la.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Vorn Dakkar This thread is creepy. <puts his fingers in his ears> La la la la la I can't hear any of this la la la la. Are those your ears, or... someone elses? And whos fingers are those? cue creepy violins warp drive active \| nature vraie
cyboman	Posted - 2007.05.15 20:06:00 - [9] Taking it one step beyond.... What if you could buy a clone (or several) and you could plop each of them in a ship and go out as a fleet of copies. Each with your same stats, each only lasting a finite amount of time before the clone would die, leaving the clone's ship in space or in your hanger. For all the old people here, remember a Mud having pets you could buy and group them?
DiuxDium	Posted - 2007.05.15 20:40:00 - [10] Edited by: DiuxDium on 15/05/2007 20:38:50 I'm able to answer this, since I've got a penchant for reading every scrap of silly stuff that shows up on the right of this box of text. A new clone will NOT spawn until you DIE. Reasons for this is that right when the POD gets *****ed open, a toxin is injected into you, killing you almost instantly. At the exact same time a "Brain Scanner" like flash hits your brain (it's mounted behind you in the pod). This "brain scanner", fries your brain completely, making you brain dead. The signal from the brain scanner is sent to where ever your clone is, and is used to code the clones brain. Before this transfer from the pod, the clone has a blank mind. So in short, it is not physically possible to have 2 of you in EVE. Since in order to write a new clone, you need to fry the mind of the old one. ------------- The above user should never be taken seriously.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2007.05.15 20:49:00 - [11] Edited by: stoicfaux on 15/05/2007 20:50:26 Originally by: cyboman Taking it one step beyond.... What if you could buy a clone (or several) and you could plop each of them in a ship and go out as a fleet of copies. Each with your same stats, each only lasting a finite amount of time before the clone would die, leaving the clone's ship in space or in your hanger. For all the old people here, remember a Mud having pets you could buy and group them? How would you know if you're the original or one of the soon-to-die clones? If you knew that you only had a short time to live, would you bother joining a fleet? How would you feel about your original creating you with a very short time to live? If you were the kind of person who would create short lived lives with the expectation that they would serve you, would your clones be the kind of persons to take orders from a person like you? Wouldn't you be so angry that you would let your original experience the joy of having a short life by attacking you? I doubt any of the short-lived clones would be inclined to follow your orders unless there was some overwhelming alturistic reason. edit: spelling
smashsmash	Posted - 2007.05.15 20:52:00 - [12] Different strokes, for different folks... I always say.
Encad Briht Minmatar Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.05.15 21:18:00 - [13] Technically your pretty dead and you copy lives on. With that brainscanner systems, in the tech background story about capsule tech and cloning is mentioned that the snapshot is initiated when a hull breach of the capsule is imminent or happend. In the moment the shot took place the capsuleer is killed by a strong nerval venom. So no, your spirit is dead as dead can, your just a copy of yourself containing all your memories. I am not that sure in case of actual Jumpclones, cause i think there is in one backgroundstory mentiond that the emitting clone is just layed dormant when the "spirit" left the body, so its more a complicated process of brainwave transmission or something and seem to take substantially more time then a synaptic snapshot but ensures that it is actually you that is transferred.
Sieges	Posted - 2007.05.15 22:48:00 - [14] I know from personal experience that I am just a copy, of a copy... of my former self. The memories that have been uploaded to this most recent clone feel like they happened to someone else. ----------- We need a way to Repackage and Transport Rigged Ships.
Mister Locke Woken Furies	Posted - 2007.05.15 22:52:00 - [15] Its worth reading Altered Carbon and its sequels by Richard Morgan which deals with these exact issues, including being cloned into two bodies (or double sleeved as they call it in the books). Really worth while read. --- --Any sufficiently advanced bureaucracy is indistinguishable from molasses.--
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.05.15 23:40:00 - [16] Originally by: stoicfaux If you knew that you only had a short time to live, would you bother joining a fleet? Why wouldn't you join the fleet? A pod pilot theoretically has the best safety net ever created. Imortality of a sort. What is death but a short inconvienience? It's the makings of the perfect warrior. One who does not fear death. One of my favorite bits out of the HBO Band of Brothers series: Lt Spiers: You know why you hid in that ditch, Blithe? Pvt. Blithe: Scared. Lt Spiers: We're all scared. You hid in that ditch because you think there's still hope. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function. Without mercy. Without compassion. Without remorse. All war depends upon it. I'm sure it's more Hollywood creative story telling than something factual. Or maybe a close to actual quote from a war that they shoe horned into that story. Doesn't matter. What matters is that it rings of cold truth to me. A soldier worried about his own mortality is more likely to screw up than one who is resigned to whatever fate may hold. Ironic maybe. Anyway, back to Eve. Fits pretty well with the fiction imo. A pilot with a clone waiting to ensure he lives on may not be so concerned with death. Steady hand at the helm and all that. Leave the metaphysical philosophy about 'souls' to the Amarr and their flying gold coffins. ------------------- Say What?
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.05.15 23:52:00 - [17] Originally by: Roy Batty68 It's the makings of the perfect warrior. One who does not fear death. He only fears the costs of his death
Celine Tap	Posted - 2007.05.15 23:58:00 - [18] Sorry for not citing the link but my internet is slow. What about the eve chronicle where a doppelgSnger commits crimes to get the original in trouble, while the doppelgSnger has differences which can set between the part. What if your cloned illegally? Upon death your brain information is sent digitally through who knows what before it reaches your clone, as it would be digital information with the right powers and access you could create a copy of the mind as it is being sent to the clone and install it into a illegally made clone. With a little bit of psychological conditioning you got your own seperate thinking clone identical to you with your memories with your ideals or ideals conditioned into. EVE is racked with corruption and back hand deals and under board running. So i would suspect it is possible. As for the ethics of it. what ethics? EVE is cut throat, and what ever is proven is denied and covered up, where your identity could be removed without a seconds notice where you can be deleted from existance where the empires if with enough motivation could easily achieve a program to illegally clone people. Think about it, having the ability to clone great leaders with their memories there ideals and condition them to live outside themselves to change their looks and create a new identity, or rather take over a oppositions identity and instil new methods of achieving goals. My friend there are no ethics involved here, only business and politics.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.05.16 00:44:00 - [19] Question is, do you still have a belly button? Also Known As
diabolic clone Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.05.16 00:46:00 - [20] EVE is about power, money is power but is powerless without influance. Without ethics you can amass all the isk in the universe but what do you do when no one has your back? Interstellar Kredits does not buy loyalty. Welcome to the rat race, you can only prolong the inevitable.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.16 01:20:00 - [21] The best analogy for pod pilots in EVE is the Bene Tleilax from the Dune series. Serial clones with the memories of its predecessor. The mechanics of the transfer are substantially different, but the concept is closer. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Father Goose Amarr Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.05.16 01:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Danton Marcellus Question is, do you still have a belly button? "The best clones, made from certified human cadavers in perfect condition, are able to retain up to 99.99% of memory û a figure close enough to call the revived clone a true doppelganger of the original person." Most cadavers I've seen are equipped with a bellybutton, ergo, your clone will have one. Serving the Spiritual needs of the Matari, and all Children of Eve, by the grace of God
Arron S Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.05.16 02:05:00 - [23] The important question is. If I have sex with my clone, does that count as incest or masterbaiting.
Tezanne Beta Librae	Posted - 2007.05.16 02:20:00 - [24] I, for one, am proud to be constituted from the finest animal carcasses and organic soups available.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.16 02:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Arron S The important question is. If I have sex with my clone, does that count as incest or masterbaiting. That is the biggest question in life isn't it? I'll do some research on it Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ... ~Liz Kali
Rastaban Rastabob	Posted - 2007.05.16 02:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Marroquina I was thinking (something really unusual )... Lets suppose, you are a Caldari at 18 years old, you leave your home and tell your mom you are going to be a capsuler. After sometime she receives a killmail telling her that you are dead. Few days after you appear at her doorstep telling he that you were reanimated in a new shiny clone, without remembering everything. Are you still the same person? Just have the memories and genetical signature gives you the right to fly the old body ships, dock at his POS and so on. What about if someone mistake your dead and reanimate two of you (you and a jump clone) at the same time, who has the right to live? Lol, crazy thing... No one but Rastaban Rastabob has the right to live.
Lissa Isillia	Posted - 2007.05.16 03:52:00 - [27] Spirit? Soul ? lawl. A person is there memories and experiences. Only thing that gets replaced is your body.
Ekscalybur	Posted - 2007.05.16 04:00:00 - [28] Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin It says somewhere in the prime fiction that as far as cloning is concerned, there is still one 'soul' no matter how many clones one has. This soul is transferred from jumpclone to jumpclone, and the medical clone process is entirely automated (neural burn scanner removes soul from exploding capsule and sends it to the medical station's mediclone). Your second scenario actually cannot happen due to the soul being a singular entity. Additionally, you cannot have a mediclone activation without the first body being destroyed: the neural burn scanner, due to its requirement for speed, destroys the brain as it scans it. Jumpclone transfers take quite a bit longer to do because of the use of slower safer, if we actually kept track ... And you pretty much do remember everything unless you forgot to update your clone contract. And it doesn't matter to your mother because she won't get a killmail, and not just because capsuleer managers aren't dumb enough to send one - so many people die that they aren't kept track of (Hands of a Killer - the main character and about 6000 others died with the ship, and none of their families were notified). Correction, it does not remove and transport anything. It makes a copy. Huge difference when we're talking about the essence of being. The clone is a copy, a very good copy, but just a copy. Its indistinquishible to outsiders, and quite possibly the clone as well. But when that capsule went pop, that person ceased being and a copy came into being. The society/societies in the prime fiction may regard the original body and subsequent clones as one being "occupied" by one soul, but saying it is so doesn't make it so. To support my claim that its a copy I point straight to the prime fiction that states how faster than light information transfer takes place. It is in fact, instantaneous.
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.05.16 04:20:00 - [29] The best source to look at in regards to the "soul" and cloning is the amarr empire. According to their beliefs the soul is not transferred, and is in fact damned eternally for the sacrilege. All the pious amarr pilots fighting and dying in space over and over again KNOW they are damned to an eternity of fiery torment but embrace this destiny to use the tool of cloning to further the fortunes of the empire and serve their faith. It's really quite tragically heroic.
Sieges	Posted - 2007.05.16 05:24:00 - [30] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Arron S The important question is. If I have sex with my clone, does that count as incest or masterbaiting. That is the biggest question in life isn't it? I'll do some research on it I think it depends on what you are baiting your master with. ----------- We need a way to Repackage and Transport Rigged Ships.

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