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sahel
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Posted - 2004.01.06 10:58:00 -
[1]
What sort of chance would the Kestrel have for 1 on 1 PvP vs a BS?
Kestrel = 4xM12 with Cruise, 3xAfterburners, 2xOverdrives.
I'm looking for any tweaks, optimum orbit ranges etc. |
Khar'du
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Posted - 2004.01.06 11:06:00 -
[2]
 Quote:
What sort of chance would the Kestrel have for 1 on 1 PvP vs a BS?
Kestrel = 4xM12 with Cruise, 3xAfterburners, 2xOverdrives.
I'm looking for any tweaks, optimum orbit ranges etc.
none if the BS isnt scrambled and locked down.
you could survive but never kill.
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Yurik Petrov
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Posted - 2004.01.06 11:30:00 -
[3]
You work with a couple of talented Griffin pilots or one BlackBird pilot, you have a good chance to earn your kill.
"If you don't live for something, you'll die for nothing." |
darth solo
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Posted - 2004.01.06 11:57:00 -
[4]
Sorry cant see it....
FOFs and drones, not to mention maybe 6k of shields, and boosters and things, its hard enough to kill a BS in a BS, never mind a frigate.
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.01.06 12:08:00 -
[5]
With a good setup you might have a chance solo against cruisers, but battleships no way. You can't get much more than 60 damage/sec out of a kestrel, a large shieldbooster gives 40/sec back, with 2 amps it gives about 62/sec. Add hardeners and stuff to that. 
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.01.06 12:21:00 -
[6]
A wad of heavy drones would take out a kestrel in seconds.
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Shadowthrone
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Posted - 2004.01.06 12:37:00 -
[7]
Kestrels are good indy killers. But U would need a swarm of them to kill a battleship. Be prepared to fire your cruises and run away, monty python style
Celes Kill Board
"Show them no mercy, for you will receive none"
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Alynthir
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Posted - 2004.01.06 12:38:00 -
[8]
Any good BS pilot should have some FoF missiles and heavy drones available to combat this. Even FoF heavies can do the job. Even if the Kestrel has a wingmate in another frigate jamming, the chances of scoring a kill are virtually nil against a seasoned BS pilot.
_____
CLS Civil Affairs Bureau
"Permanent = Today's Plan."
Training: Noob Instructor Level 5  |
Luc Boye
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Posted - 2004.01.06 13:00:00 -
[9]
Not to mention if the BS pilot decides to log off, you can't finish him off.
--
2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Seleene
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Posted - 2004.01.06 13:24:00 -
[10]
Thanks to Alynthir up there, one of my Blackbird pilots learned the hard way about how a jammed Apoc can still be pretty deadly.  We'll get you one day, hon!
I've tried every combination imaginable with all of the missile-throwing ships and I can assure you that a single frigate cannot take down a BS. Even a noob BS driver could probably get away long before the shields went down.
In my experience, the best ships in the game to to BS hunting with, pre and post-Castor, are a pair of Blackbirds. If you lose one, it's not a big deal, but my people average two or three BS kills/ransoms for every Blackbird we lose so it's a fairly favorable ratio.
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T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
sahel
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Posted - 2004.01.06 13:41:00 -
[11]
Hmmm...cheers for the info. I've read a few posts claiming a Kestrel could take on a BS - just wondering how accurate they were.
Like the idea about the Monty Python style combat though!!! |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.06 13:50:00 -
[12]
... Well, i killed Armageddon with Kestrel in 1v1 when the frigate MWD were introduced for the first time. ;s
That had nothing to do with a real fight, though -- the Armageddon wasn't using the shield booster, and wasn't scrambled so it could warp out at any second really. It was more of a test if frigate can effectively dodge large guns at ~20 km distance which turned out true... but the Kestrel was much faster with MWD then.
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GeoNoSiS
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Posted - 2004.01.06 17:50:00 -
[13]
Quote:
A wad of heavy drones would take out a kestrel in seconds.
ACtually... a wad of heavy drones would take out a kestrel in a second 
-----------------------------------------------
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world |
Jacque Sparrow
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Posted - 2004.01.06 18:35:00 -
[14]
Quote:
What sort of chance would the Kestrel have for 1 on 1 PvP vs a BS?
Kestrel = 4xM12 with Cruise, 3xAfterburners, 2xOverdrives.
I'm looking for any tweaks, optimum orbit ranges etc.
I do know it only takes two Cruisers to kill a BS but one of the cruisers must die (Sacraficial Lamb Strategy)... I would think 2 or three Kestrels should do the trick but again you might have better luck beginning with a single Kestrel using the others as Passive Targeting backups once the fun begins. The trick would be to remain within the BS's accuracy fall-off but not within the Optimal Range and to remain faster than torpedos meanwhile the Kestrels dish-out the cruise missiles. The advantage to using Passive Targeters is that the BS might not be aware of the other ships until they have launched their missiles which means you get a few seconds of extra damage.
Don't waste your time trying to kill me - I routinely kill myself... |
John Blackthorn
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Posted - 2004.01.06 18:42:00 -
[15]
The issue with a kestral vs a battleship is that a single kestral can fire 4 cruise missles doing lets say 1,000 damage comblined. And if the battlship was using a mwd his shields would be lower than normal. So lets say the B.S. has 4k shields and 5k armor.
You just can't do enophe damege before one of the B.s. shots is going to get a lucky shot and wipe you out.
There is another important issue here that many people over look. You fire a missle you have to wait for the launcher to reset. Lets say 10 seconds, and then you have to reload, thats another 10 seconds. So your firing your 1,000 worht of damage every 21-22 seconds (given that you can't hit the fire button on the gui at exactly 20 seconds.
in 21-22 seconds the b.s. should be able to lock you, and then the next round of 21-22 seconds he can fire on you with all there weapons what? 3-4 times with multiable turrents?
No kestral dosn't have much a chance, even if you got the b.s. down to the armor the b.s. would just warp away.
Now using 5 kestrals could beat up a b.s. pretty badly. Fire for 5k damage, couple of you use one of your med slots for warp scrabler and the other item that slows the ships.
-BT
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.06 18:43:00 -
[16]
The answer is, hell no.
2 Kestrels and a Blackbird however, could challenge a battleship.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Captain Canuck
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Posted - 2004.01.06 19:56:00 -
[17]
KrullDari and myself actually ran into this situation last night - both of us in Kestrals vs. DontiusTarri (forgive me if thats not correct) - We both locked and fired 2 salvos before he was able to lock us (he had been locked down - for a short period anyway) as my third salvo was leaving, Krull was destroyed and i took a salvo (and if i didnt have 200mm armor on my kestral it would have killed me as well) so basically......you can make a kestral last longer in a fight (that 200mm armor doubles your total armor hit points) but dont expect to kill a battleship by yourself or even with 2 or 3 kestrals....they just arnt made to do it.
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.01.06 20:26:00 -
[18]
technikly 2 or 1 BB and 2-4 krestel can kill BS...
Technikly that is
usualy it ends up in death of cruisers and Krestels flee away montypython style
if u make Hevy FOFs unable to target Frigates then i whuld work.. but as long Cruiser FOFs go after small frigs its absurd....
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Lhyda Souljacker
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Posted - 2004.01.06 20:30:00 -
[19]
On this topic:
In a large engagement, can you imagine how much mayhem a squad of Kestrals with passive targeters could do?
Warp in, let loose missiles, warp out . . . reload in the tunnel and warp back. You could easily be in and out before a battleship could get lock.
... That's when I reach for my revolver ... |
Luc Boye
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Posted - 2004.01.06 20:48:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Luc Boye on 06/01/2004 20:50:50
Barnett and I did kill a mega back while with 2 BBs, and the only real threat is FoF cruise missiles. The drones could be countered back then (BB was a LOT faster ship).
Some dancing around and warp in-warp out + defenders could make you survive FoF missiles, but then you deal damage slower as well, so BS could tank and live.
However, taking on a mega or amarr ships in 2 BBs is one thing, taking on a raven is different matter, thats a bunch of FoF were talking about
--
2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Hanns
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Posted - 2004.01.07 01:04:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Hanns on 07/01/2004 01:04:56
No chance at all since next patch it wont be able to hold cruise missiles coz all the whining bittches get there way AGAIN!
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.07 01:05:00 -
[22]
Quote:
On this topic:
In a large engagement, can you imagine how much mayhem a squad of Kestrals with passive targeters could do?
Warp in, let loose missiles, warp out . . . reload in the tunnel and warp back. You could easily be in and out before a battleship could get lock.
Actually, I'm thinking what if a bunch of Kestrels (or with any other missile loading frigate---Inquisitor/Breacher/Merlin/Rifter) can do with tracking disrupters and sensor dampeners.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.07 01:06:00 -
[23]
Quote:
... Well, i killed Armageddon with Kestrel in 1v1 when the frigate MWD were introduced for the first time. ;s
That had nothing to do with a real fight, though -- the Armageddon wasn't using the shield booster, and wasn't scrambled so it could warp out at any second really. It was more of a test if frigate can effectively dodge large guns at ~20 km distance which turned out true... but the Kestrel was much faster with MWD then.
Sounds like you got one of those Kill the Blood Spirit Sage missions.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.07 01:20:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Edited by: Hanns on 07/01/2004 01:04:56
No chance at all since next patch it wont be able to hold cruise missiles coz all the whining bittches get there way AGAIN!
Well SCREW THEM.
I thought that having frigates capable of using cruise missiles to be a very interesting thing, and provides the only way frigates can stand up to a battleship.
Didn't we have enough whining threads about Frigates being too useless against Battleships? About how to make frigates more USEFUL in PvP?
Well here is the chance and some people want to take that off.
Screw them.
A Kestrel or any frigates with cruise missiles is not a bad thing. It is even realistic, just like an F-16 fighter with Harpoon missiles, or a Mirage fighter with Exocet missiles.
I think the thought of Kamekaze Kestrels attacking a battlefleet is immensely interesting to this game. It is kind of like the last days of WW2 when the Japanese sent Kamekaze bombers against the US fleet in do and die missions.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Jael Markinsen
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Posted - 2004.01.07 02:27:00 -
[25]
*sigh*, yeah me just laughs and shakes my head in agreement with hanns and slithereen.
Adapting and changing playstyles with frigates again, after having just gotten a real feel for them after all the castor changes, I never really flew them much before castor.
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CoolSprog
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Posted - 2004.01.07 09:16:00 -
[26]
A Kestrel could jam a battleship but then wouldent be able to warp scramble it so it would never kill 1.
Unless the guy was AFK for 2 months and half dead.
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.01.07 09:38:00 -
[27]
Quote:
I do know it only takes two Cruisers to kill a BS but one of the cruisers must die (Sacraficial Lamb Strategy)...
No need to sacrifice anything. 2 Cruisers can tackle 2 BS.
As for kestrel 1v1 vs any BS... no chance.
Even on TQ with cruises kestrel 1v1 vs a jammed and scrambled BS still has no chance. All the BS needs is decent cap recharge and a shield booster.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.01.07 11:25:00 -
[28]
Kestrel using cruise missles is like taking a punisher with a 1400mm howitzer strapped on its hull, it doesn't match.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
CoolSprog
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Posted - 2004.01.07 15:51:00 -
[29]
Sorry i was busy earlier, what i was saying was the only chance the kestrel is even gonna live longer than 2 seconds is if he jams the ship, and the only way hes gonna keep him there is by warp scrambling the guy. But how a frig with 3 medslots jams and warpscrambles a ship is anyones guess 
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.07 17:05:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Ruffles on 07/01/2004 17:07:40
The refire rate is a little high.
M12 Launcher I's with MLO 5 will have a refire rate of 10.5 seconds. Add 2 seconds for manual click-reload, and the 10 seconds for reload, and another second or two to reactivate:
23.5-24.5 seconds per volley.
Assuming Cruise 3, which is pretty attainable, thats 345 per missile. Assuming the kestrel is all offense mode only, no means to defend itself except perhaps its speed.
Thats 345 x 4 = 1380 / 24.5 seconds = 56.32 hits/sec
(Assuming about 5k per paradise cruise missile)
Cost per salvo: 816.32 isk / second
This has ignored flight time for this particular instance (which I don't think should be ignored).
A battleship of say, 5000 hits of shields.
Assuming the kestrels used EM Cruise missiles, this is approximately 15 cruise to bring down the shields.
Now, lets imagine a battleship pilot with some brains, an EM and Thermal Tactical shield, and a shield booster of any sort.
1380/2 = 690 / 24.5 seconds = 28.16 hits/sec
Assuming the shields can reboost at, what, Large Shield Booster rates. 160 shield / 4 seconds?
960 / 24 seconds of shield regeneration.
If the target actually has any tactical shield hardener you would annoy it, but you would be throwning a lot of money away, as he can mostly regenerate it faster - at least long enough to warp out, or sick his drones on you if you come within 20-40km (depending on what drones they have fitted).
With a Microwarp drive fitted, you might survive the encounter, but you would probably be warping away or loosing the ship.
Start doing the figures multiplied by additional ships and you will start introducing a factor of threat to the equation for the battleship.
However, it won't be for long. Frigates are now, officially, no longer intended to fire cruise missiles.
/emote sighs
Indeed I was very happy to see so many people un-mothballing frigates and taking them out and risking them in action. I thought "Yay, now lets try some things".
Such a shame, it was great seeing frigates being used in combat.
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