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Gun-ships dominate the universe: Missile-boats on verge of extinction

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Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 08:47:00 - [1] All Devs must fly Gun ships with this kind of "balancing" going on. Why you ask? Here are the my reasons. Every improvement in the last year has been a Quantum step forward for gunships and a nerf to missileboats. Tech 3 Battleships and Tech 2 ammo is introduced allowing gunships to shoot from 400km (well out of range of ANY missileboat) and their shots are magically teleported to the target immediatly. Tech 2 missiles are introduced to hit small targets that can not go fast. So how many intercepters do you meet that go slower now that we have tech 2 missiles? Oh and since the gunboats are shooting from 400km the new fury missiles are range nerfed to only be able to reach 35km with perfect skills. Proof: Standard Cruise missile Velocity: 3750 m/s Flight Time: 20 sec Damage: 300 hp Precision Cruise Missile Velocity: 3750 m/s Flight Time: 10 sec Explosion radius: 200m Explosion Velocity: 1000 m/s Max Velocity: -4% Damage: 260 hp So what do we get for our money here a missile that does 15% less damage and flys half as long as normal and still cant hit the target if it can go 8km/s and makes missileboats a much better target for gunships. Evaluation: totally useless Fury Cruise Missile Velocity: 1750 m/s Flight Time: 10 sec Cap Recharge: -5% Damage: 345 hp ok here we go the equalizer for going up against other Battleships right? WRONG. Remeber I said now Gunships are hitting from 400km with the magic bullets. Our T2 missiles are doing 15% more damage and we trade off 77% of our range but those gunships might still have trouble killing us while we are closing on them at a scathing 150m/s (will only take a missileboat 42 minutes to get in range) so to make it even easier for the gunship to kill the missileboat they took away 5% cap recharge per launcher. Evaluation: totally useless Just to keep you on track both of the negative effects on missileboats are cumalative. that means if you load up a Raven with a full rack of precision you just decreased your top speed by 24%. And if you load up with a full set of fury you just killed your cap recharge by 30%. None of the effects from the magic bullets are cumalative. Iron charge L Damage 12 hp Kinetic and 8 Thermal Range +60% Cap need -30% Spike L Damage 16 Hp Kinetic and 16 hp Thermal Range +80% tracking -75% Here we get a magic bullet that flies 20% farther and does 60% more damage. Well there is that tracking issue, opps no there isn't because they are sitting 400km away a pre-nerf nano-typhoon would still get hit for max damage. I guess the loss of that extra 30% cap they would be keeping is really the only drawback. Guess they might have to hit the cap booster that totally negates this issue a few more times to destroy any missileboat they see before it even gets in range to shoot. Evaluation: delete any character that isnt a gun-bunny cause game "balance" says too. Yeah I laughed too when I used the balance word.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:00:00 - [2] Originally by: Chavu Lame. You have not flown a "Gunboat" before, so you should not be commenting on it. I cannot dream of getting 400km with a Maelstrom and yes my "magic bullet" t2 penalties stack. I know because I just did it a few days ago with my Thrasher and Quake S, might want to show info those bad boys if you want to see real penalties. Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. As far as not being able to get 400km you just need to play with quickfit a little more and I am sure you can figure it out.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:07:00 - [3] so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta so far all the post are avoiding the facts. so I guess this will just get the usually gun-bunnies hoping that noone will read it and nerf this overpowering gun slant that is taking over the game. sorry we're all sitting here laughing our asses off at some of your 'facts'. frankly i dont know wtf you're asking or wanting. you want your missiles to hit further? use T1.. they go quite far last i checked. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Max Hardcase If there is one bit I have to agree with is that the delayed damage is a tad extreme. Double missile speed, halve flight time. That gave me chills. I think this is a very good idea. Double speed on missiles might actually let people use them in PVP.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:03:00 - [6] yeah 225km if the ship has the right bonuses. that means that while you wait 30 sec for your FIRST missile to hit the target you have been hit 5 to 10 times by every gun on your opponent depending on his RoF. That seems really fair doesnt it and that is if he doesnt simple idle away from you a few m/s just to watch your missiles run out of gas before hitting while still hitting you everytime.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Gawain Hill ok i think i'm well qualified to post in this thread i have rockets level 1 and rocket launcher level 1 and a few mill in gunnery... ok last time i checked the way things worked was; 1m) missiles hit 100% of the time 1g) guns miss a hell of alot 2m) missiles hit for max damage each time 2g)guns damage can totally suck or be half decent 3m) at 1km or 200km missiles do the same damage 3g) guns do great damage at 1km (if they can acctually hit which alot can't) and do REALLY bad damage at 200km 4m) missiles are great in PvE 4g) guns suck at PvE 5m) missiles suck for PvP 5g) guns are great for PvP now i saw comment of interceptors somewhere but who cares it's not like they can be hit by gun boats unless they webbed anyway but hey stick 5 target painters on them and everyone can just about hit them 1m)Missiles hit if they dont run out of gas or if the target doesnt just flat outrun them. 1g)If your guns miss get the skills and mods to fix it 2m) see 1m) and go read the missle guide for all the other factors that reduce damage. 2g)or go wrecking damage for the OMG WTF was that 3m)yeah it hits same at all range if it hits 3g) not if you use the right ammo 4m) yeah missiles are great when every ship cruiser and larger can take out part of your dps every time you fire. Some named BS targets can take out up to 50% of your missiles before they hit. (Vengence anyone?) 4g) no they do just fine in PVE if you carry 3 types of ammo. 5m) 100% correct missiles can not compete in PVP 5g) yes guns rule pvp completly
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage. What trade off is that?????????
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:27:00 - [9] Edited by: Lab Ratta on 19/05/2007 10:26:06 Originally by: Hank Showbo Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage. did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage. What trade off is that????????? Spike also gives a penalty of 0.25 tracking, so tracking is reduced by 75% too. yes but if you are shooting from 250km how fast would the target need to move to hurt your tracking? Much faster than a Battleship can ever dream of going.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 10:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Ryo Jang Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank? Bah they thought of everything for you they gave us missiles that do more damage and fly 77% less distance while giving you 20% rang and 60% damage at the same time. Oh and as for the unbreakable tank....-30% to cap recharge FTW

Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Ryo Jang Originally by: Lab Ratta Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Guns hit for two resists where missles hit for one only and max range for even T1 missiles is 150km so even with a hard cap of 250km Gun-ships are over powered in all aspects. ahahahahahaha!!! first time ive ever heard anyone complain about missiles damage types. didnt you realise you can PICK which damage type you want to use? ie, tailor your damage output to which ever tank you are facing? what are us turret types supposed to do except wail away against a potentially unbreakable tank? Bah they thought of everything for you they gave us missiles that do more damage and fly 77% less distance while giving you 20% rang and 60% damage at the same time. Oh and as for the unbreakable tank....-30% to cap recharge FTW ok, since you seem to lack the basic logic to figure things out let me try and argue like you OMFG, Spike ammo deals 40% less dmg than antimatter! 40%!!!!!!! and all we get is a lousy 60% range bonus!!!! like OMfG wTf BalANceE!!!! stop comparing the 2, they're different weapon systems. you want to hit @ 240km? fit for it and deal with the dmg delay or train for a rokh. You're tired of getting hit from 240km for dmg that cant even break a noob tank? warp out. You want to kill the bugger? look to point 1 and have the lamest duel ever (2 battleship slugging it out @ 240km borefest ftw) now please, start playing the game and stop spewing your ignorance on the boards. OR come up with a better argument. ---- Do try to get your facts straight once in a while. This comparison you did is like apples and oranges but i will use your lopsided choices. Antimatter Vs Spike is a 130% increase in range I think its 50% less damage 28+20 for antimatter(guessing) vs the 16+16 for spike. But since you brought up amtimatter. Antimatter Vs Iron 28+20 vs 12+8 that is 69% damage reduction for that extra 110% range where 28+20 vs 16+16 is a 33% damage reduction for an extra 130% range numbers speak loudly this this should not have been done.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:28:00 - [13] I just want equal footing for a missile boat. why should it be that if you want to pvp you have to re-train completly into guns to be effective. Variety is the spice of life and if you have all your choices made for you it becomes dull and meaningless. I think someone that went all drone skills should have a fair chance at winning a battle against a missile boat or a gun-ship also. This isnt so much a anti-gun campaign as it is a thread that wants more variety and viable ones at that.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:49:00 - [14] Originally by: HEINZ ZERO Edited by: HEINZ ZERO on 19/05/2007 11:38:03 ...guys here I have some DPS numbers (calculations made with beta23v5_kali excel damage calculator) All ships with 3 Damage Mods; Skills are Maxed; T2 long range Ammo for Turret users; T1 Ammo for Missile Ships; All turret ships have 2 tracking computers II (yeah thats not fair, the missile ship don¦t need this -> so they have 2!!! more slots for tanking or E-war) DPS @ Raven Rokh Maelstrom Abaddon 100km 450 321 380 465 150km 450 321 367 393 200km 450 321 104 0 250km 450 321 0 0 Raven with T2 cruise Launcher Rokh woth T2 425mm Railguns Maelstrom with T2 1400mm Arty Abaddon with T2 Megabeams This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 11:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Kara Kaprica Lab Ratta Your pulling your numbers out of your bottom. Missles are not worse than guns, nor are they better, they are DIFFERENT. You have an operational tradeoff of the way they work against guns so you have a CHOICE of using either guns or missles. If you dont think missles are good, use GUNS. Jesus. Listen to what you are saying. They are different. I like different but dont want to be gimped just because i want to fly a missile boat. Your right I have a choice right now be guns or be gimp. The choice i want is build a ship how i want to fight and have an equal chance that i can win a fight.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships?
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.19 12:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 19/05/2007 12:04:31 Originally by: Car Wars Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Max Hardcase Missiles still have silly speed compared to the sips they're being shot @. Interceptors outrunning light missiles I agree no ship should be able to go faster than a missile. I agree you should get a titan, with a missile based doomsday that need to target all its victims first. get a clue dude, go play wow Well all Missiles is a tad extreme, but light missiles or rockets, then certainly no. Keep in mind there still is the explosion speed damage reduction. Nice cross post troll
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.20 20:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Jane Spondogolo At 200km , my main can knock any T1 cruiser off the battlefied in 2 or 3 volleys in a frigging manticore with T1 cruises (Wont actually work on T2 cruises- low flight time). Try that on any frigate with T1 or T2 with guns of any sort at any range. Or take a crow. What that thing does with missiles is obscene. Sure you can stick spike in a rail gun and match its range, but your damage will suck into almost worthlessness. Sure I get as irritated as the next guy at flight times. But thats the trade off for such violent weaponry. And yes, Im currently training T2 large rails, but thats only because I've kind of maxed most of the missile skills I think are interesting to me. This is kind of funny if the missiles are such be all for damage WHY are all these caldari training for 425 rails. Ill tell you why....Missiles suck completely as they are now. Which is why I am up to medium T2 rails already and large are around the corner and it really ****es me off that i needed to leave missiles to be effective in PVP.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.20 20:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Happster Edited by: Happster on 20/05/2007 01:33:06 You my friend seems to be forgetting a lot of stuff too ;) 1. You speak of your missiles not able to do sensible damage on very fast moving targets. Guess what. Guns doesnt either. This has to do with tracking and transversal velocity. The difference here between guns and missiles is guns doesnt hit at all, but your missiles actually do some damage. 2. Missiles doesnt snipe very well. But so what? Everything in this game has its role. One thing isnt supose to be good at everything. Missiles are good in all areas except sniping. To make missiles good in sniping too, would just put things out of balance. 3. If you want to be a sniper, train gunnery and get a Rohk and outsnipe everyone! 4. Please dont try to fix something thats not broken. As i said in #2, everything in eve has its role. Its place and its use. So if you want to fly raven and missiles go do missions, ratt, or even pvp in small gangs. You will be uber in doing that. 5. First that comes to my mind when reading about raven / missile ppl wanting their stuff to do better in new areas is that you have it too easy. Your not used to work for your stuff to do well. Im flying a minnie, and you will out damage and out tank me any day in your raven with torps. That is if you actually use your brain to set it up right. But hey, im not whining. 1. if the target has aspect change then the gun has a chance to hit it due to the magic bullet effect. Missiles still cant even get to the target and the opertunity for a hit is lost. 2. I am sorry guess since missiles are PVE only all GUNS should be BANNED from entering complexes and mission areas. Since you are saying it is ok for missiles to be reduced to the role of PVE. 3. you said it. I just dont want to have too go guns but i am being given no choice. 4. lets draw the lines and make sure guns cant be used in PVE then ill be glad to allow that missiles be useless in PVP. 5. we just want SOME equal footing. that is all
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.20 20:55:00 - [20] Originally by: Cadiz Edited by: Cadiz on 20/05/2007 05:41:15 Originally by: Lab Ratta Maybe look down the list a bit your ammo is called Tremor. It has same effect 20% range enhance and 60% more damage for no real negative. I was unaware that -75% tracking counted as "no real negative". And if you think that having your tracking chopped down by 3/4ths doesn't matter at 150 - 180km, you're dead bloody wrong. Well lets see if going up against a BS size target you have nothing to worry about since they can only make about 150m/s ..... yeah that is a real tracking nightmare isnt it

Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.20 21:01:00 - [21] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 20/05/2007 12:02:41 Quote: Missiles = lower DPS / allows better Tank Guns = higher DPS / restricts Tank somewhat? If these are the main qualifiers for each weapon system, the question is, does the more cap missiles allow for balance out the higher DPS guns put out? I was worried about this myself alot. So after calculating in quickfit i came to the conclusion that i would lose most of the fights in my raven. But i didnt want to believe this so i went to the testserver and fought against my mates tII blaster domi, nos domi,tII blaster mega, tII neutron blaster and dual cap injected hyperion. the funny thing was i won all the fights except the fight against the nos domi. in all other fights my mate capped out even with 2 injectors. so at the end i have to say missiles/vs turrets are extremely balanced, at least at close range. the better tank makes up for the slight less dps. I would almost bet you used T1 ammo. You defiantly did NOT use T2 Fury ammo. the -30% cap recharge is a nice slap in the face.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.21 00:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Spacer John ---"1. Missiles has its role as i said in the previouse post of mine. Plex, Ratting, Missions, and small gang pvp. And if you think your missiles do less dps then guns, you have your facts wrong. If you compare it to the blasterthrone, maybe it does. But so does everyone else. Do a check vs the AC's. You will find missiles on top in that comparation. 2. Raven has the abillity to fit both tank and gank. That my friend is one of the few ships in eve that can do that well. 3. DPS for guns are calculated in perfect enviroment. Something you never see on the battlefield. The true dps will allways be worse. 4. We dont want a ship that is a i win button. Seems you do ;) 5. Wrecking shots is like 1 out of 1k shots. So its far from a common hit. As i said. You will come on top of any minmatar BS with a rave. In both tank and gank. Raven has a role in all places in eve, except for in a sniper fleet. Get over it. You will not get it all."--- I specifically said that I had little experience with guns and most of my post was looking for more information. Who is asking for an "I win" button? Claiming I did just makes you look like a jackass. Guns do less damage than missiles? What FACTS did I claim I had? All I said is that was what I percieved as the the general consesus on the forums. I also wasn't sure how gun DPS was calculated. According to you the DPS is calculated as if in perfect conditions, the second part of my question was if anyone did calculations to determine the average "worse" DPS figure on an actual battlefield. I don't really consider PVE as a good role for missiles considering I don't enjoy running missions much and I thought this was a PVP argument. I do however enjoy small gang warfare. If the missile role is small gang warfare, then that means they do it better than other weapon systems. In this case I'm happy with missiles and don't feel that they need a boost. You make the Raven sound like the king of PVP with its "Gank AND Tank" ability. If this is the case I'll have to read up on more Raven PVP setups to take advantage of this. Main problem I cant seem to get across to all you people is that your view that missiles are for plexing and missions go learn guns for pvp is not how it should be. Guy right there toward end of page 4 even admits that he does missions with a gun-ship and then can turn around and go pvp also. But all i get from you gun-bunnies is go learn guns for pvp. If that is how it is suppose to be then all you gun-bunnies should HAVE to put in the 10 million + SP to bring up missiles.
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.21 01:08:00 - [23] Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson Originally by: Lab Ratta Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Lab Ratta This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is. Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range. I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage. Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships? Using caldari missile boats and minmatar gunships in PVP i beg to differ. I really wish the ROF on my Tempest was the same as my Raven with the same amount of Gyros and BCU's. However if they were both 200km from each other the raven would be hit possibly from 4 salvos befor it's missiles hit the pest. But (and this is the clincher for me), no way could a Tempest setup so it hits hard and often from 200km is going tank like the Raven can. Thats why I like using the Missile boats in PVP. They tank really well and providing you are in range every missile you fire hits. There are probably more caldari/missile pilots engaging in PVP than you realise. Your RoF compare for minmatar guns vs caldari missiles doesnt stand Crusie missile 2 has base RoF of 17.5 and 800mm Large Artillery has base RoF of 7.88 the other Large Minmatar guns were even faster. So what were you trying to say when you said you wish that your guns had the RoF from your Raven?
Lab Ratta	Posted - 2007.05.21 01:33:00 - [24] guy was comparing the Domi to a Raven in DPS earlier in the thread and said a Raven could out DPS a Domi. I think he forgot that a Domi can fit 6 GUNS to go along with his drones and that will just beat the pants off a Raven for pure DPS Just think jump in and see a raven sitting there at 50km off gate. Drop 5 Wardens and MWD over to the Raven open up with your 6 blasters (or 4 blasters with 2 heavy NOS to kill any tank you want to) that Raven will die so fast it is likely that the Domi will still have shields left.

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