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Skill - Amarr Ship Laser Cap Reduction

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Lance Fighter	Posted - 2007.05.21 18:49:00 - [1] Edited by: Lance Fighter on 21/05/2007 18:51:56 I propose a skill, to affect laser cap use, on ONLY amarr ships. The idea is that then, the amarr will be able to have USEFULL ship boni, as apposed to how it is now. The skill would be rank 3 or so, and require the prerequisite of small laser skill(also, all amarr chars start with it). Such a skill would allow the laser to have less cap use, allow amarr ships to get valid boni, and also dis-allow exploiting such a skill. As far as i can see, the only downside is that it would be easyer to train than the amarr battleship skill, or even the titan/dread skill. Recap Skill to reduce laser cap use on only amarr ships Good: only works on amarr ships reduces laser cap use allows amarr ships to have 2 good boni Bad: easyer to train than bigger ship skills ... thats about it Any thoughts? Edit - somehow when ever i have a good idea i post it in the wrong place... Someone keeps truncating my signature, I swear
Kazamidori Division 9 Golden Leaves Izanagi Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.21 20:52:00 - [2] Although I can see other race complaining about this change, in an overall picture I'd think this would be a fair way to adjust Amarr as a race. Here's something regarding gunnery skills. Trajectory Analysis increase fall off range. It benefits both blasters and projectile weapons greatly, as those are the main 'range' factor for those two weapon category. Laser, on the other hand, does not benefit much since both the Pulse and Beam rely mostly on optimal range instead of falloff. It does, however, benefit a little bit. I'm guessing this would upset a lot of people, but what if the gunnery skill for lasers were changed completely? Each level of corresponding laser turrets reduce laser capacitor usage by 10%. All laser turrets recieve a damage adjustments accordingly, and ship bonus also recieve adjustment for now-unnecessary cap usage reduction bonus. TRAM
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar Retribution Corp.	Posted - 2007.05.21 21:02:00 - [3] There is allready a skill that reduced capacitator use for guns, it is however not limited to amarr. Also adding a skill that gioves a bonus to a certain ship would be a bit silly, why not just add the bonus to the ship itself? The same principle is still viable as most bonustes are affected by skill level.
Ruciza	Posted - 2007.05.21 23:04:00 - [4] Often the thought comes to me that the Devs don't want Amarr to use speed mods, you know, "slow and lumbering". That they are no tacklers, and that the freed mid slots opens up the world of cap warfare with neutralizers, or tracking disruptors, evening out their bad short range tracking and enforcing their range advantage.
Lance Fighter	Posted - 2007.05.22 00:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Lance Fighter on 22/05/2007 00:30:53 Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh There is allready a skill that reduced capacitator use for guns, it is however not limited to amarr. Also adding a skill that gioves a bonus to a certain ship would be a bit silly, why not just add the bonus to the ship itself? The same principle is still viable as most bonustes are affected by skill level. sigh. Have you ever shot a laser? Flew an amarr ship? LOOKED at an amarr ship for that matter? They already HAVE a laser cap use bonus. The point is, ITS USELESS! something that would replace such a bonus would be MUCH appreciated by the amarr community. AND, it would allow the amarr to meet other races - They could have two RELAVENT boni to thier ships. edit - about the skill being made to work for cap use instead of damage bonus... no. It would upset people. perhaps a low ranking skill to go along with it, but dont change what the skill does. Someone keeps truncating my signature, I swear
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.05.22 02:42:00 - [6] well the dev said the amarr should be the cap race. right now they are the use more cap race lol. thus destorying any cap that they could use else where. 50% decrease plus a 25% decrease. plus a med solt what more do you want!wh not give all amarr ships... 50% more cap decrease the recharge by 25%. which you could reduce to 10% with the extra med solt anyway IF YOU CHOOSE TO then you would last MUCH longer. they would tank like crazy if you went with a autogun set up. You would be slow and lumbering. you would be running through cap with laser. But you would last a lot longer. lasers do have the highest Dps right? If not boost them too because it makes sence. I fly duct tabe ships. I love speed. I don't mind if you have lots of cap my ships don't use any :P
Uchuu	Posted - 2007.05.22 06:06:00 - [7] Yeah... About that, I think he meant amarr suppose to be the cap race when it comes to ewar. Like bonuses to nos. And to the OP... No.
MinerManX	Posted - 2007.05.22 10:00:00 - [8] well there is a skill that does nothing to auto cannons, it's the op range skill, to be fair tho, i still think that the blaster change so they use less cap was silly (when amarr lvl 5).
Ruciza	Posted - 2007.05.22 10:58:00 - [9] Edited by: Ruciza on 22/05/2007 11:03:09 The more nos or neut you fit, the less lasers you have to use cap. Superficially, your damage is lower, but you damage his cap, and without it he will succumb to lower damage eventually. The enemies of the Amarr are always faster, and also are not expected to get into webbing range (artillery range, autocannon falloff). For example, the main Minmatar cruiser, the Stabber, will be loathe to enter nos or web range. Even the Rupture will try to keep away. Instead of a useless web it will in all probability not be able to use, Amarr fit a tracking disruptor, which does bring artillery range down to pulse laser optimal, and destroys autocannon tracking, forcing the Minmatar ships to either slow down, or do much less damage than the lasers due to low tracking. This counters the Minmatar autocannon tracking advantage and a slow Minmatar can more easily be cornered with neuts. The Minmatar have target painters to partly counter the Amarr tracking disruptors, enabling the Minmatar to keep most of their speed even while disrupted, or they can have even more speed while not, especially with artillery, which tracks slowly. Note that this derives from the "slow and lumbering" concept. Amarr combat ships are not tacklers, and they do not spend their cap catching targets. They have specialized ships for that, and do not use the Maller or Apoc for webbing holding stuff in place. They use their ship resources (slots) for reinforcement of their cap, in order to turn that against the enemy in the form of neuts. This works because the enemy always has other crap running, like AB or often even mwd. For example if blasters hadn't their heavy damage, they would never be able to overcome Amarr 25% bonus-many low slots tanks while their cap dies due to their need for speed and their cap consuming guns. The notion that Amarr don't have enough cap comes from the Amarr pilot's desire to fly hit and run like his ancestral enemies, or make point blank attacks like the Gallente. Their ships are not meant to do it, just like Caldari missile ships. Those cannot hold you in place from their standoff missile range either, and if they come near, they sacrifice tank to tackle. Maybe the Devs understand "variety" as the need to use different tools for different playing styles. As an Amarr, you cannot tank and gank and be fast at the same time. You have to be slow and tank and destroy the other's cap. This makes sense from a role playing perspective. If the Minmatar want to hit and run, fine. While they run, the Amarr fleet lays their planets to waste, or destroys their fixed infrastructure. To prevent it, the rebel slaves would have to come near, near to their neuts and tracking disruptors and tacklers. Such options are not (yet) on the table for Amarr players, because in game infrastructure destruction is only a game for large fleets. And from fleets the calls for an Amarr boost are few, it's more those who want to catch ships as pirates and solo who think they don't have enough cap. There are more aspects to it, something the Devs have already talked about. Like Omnitanks or a lack of gun downsizing options. But they don't talk about cap.
Da Govna	Posted - 2007.05.23 05:24:00 - [10] Edited by: Da Govna on 23/05/2007 05:26:15 Edited by: Da Govna on 23/05/2007 05:22:46 There is a skill that effects only turrets that use capaciter...i.s. lasers of all kinds. Me personally, since I have been attacked by an amarr think that is enough. :P
Mad Rage Amarr Dark Crystal Corporation	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Lance Fighter Edited by: Lance Fighter on 22/05/2007 00:30:53 Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh There is allready a skill that reduced capacitator use for guns, it is however not limited to amarr. Also adding a skill that gioves a bonus to a certain ship would be a bit silly, why not just add the bonus to the ship itself? The same principle is still viable as most bonustes are affected by skill level. sigh. Have you ever shot a laser? Flew an amarr ship? LOOKED at an amarr ship for that matter? They already HAVE a laser cap use bonus. The point is, ITS USELESS! something that would replace such a bonus would be MUCH appreciated by the amarr community. AND, it would allow the amarr to meet other races - They could have two RELAVENT boni to thier ships. edit - about the skill being made to work for cap use instead of damage bonus... no. It would upset people. perhaps a low ranking skill to go along with it, but dont change what the skill does. you most not be well trained there already 3 or 4 skills for caps yes of course it would help the amarr ships to gain more firepower and cap contorl but a well fitted amarr ship will handle its cap i fly large and small amarr ships you most learn how to fit one amarr need more damage in there weapon maybe a new type of dmg like kin or something the biggest problem amarr as its em and thermic dmg it only has and everyone can tank you try to hit a ship with 80% em and 78% thermic that where the amarr boat become useless not the cap hell my abaddon can passively tank and heavy damage and handle a domi LOL
evilllstrom	Posted - 2007.05.23 16:32:00 - [12] Sorry but it's one more skill to train ONLY for amarr ... NO !!! Change the turrets stat ... -25% capa cons on all AMARR TURRETS !!! Wait always for the promised change of all ships amarrs and all beams turret ...
Stellar Vix	Posted - 2007.05.23 23:32:00 - [13] I suggest something mroe of that aside from the amarrians only something like racial spaceship command or mabey those racial doctrine books that have been a requirement for flagships for a while could facilitate this role. Now if bonus effects amarr only how would faction ships be affected that are mutts of two races. Next question is what would the other three races get just for balance? Caldari could get some small bonus for range of railguns and flight time Gallente some tracking or drone bonus Minmatar could get some speed and projectile rof bonus's
Lance Fighter	Posted - 2007.05.24 02:26:00 - [14] Originally by: evilllstrom Sorry but it's one more skill to train ONLY for amarr ... NO !!! Change the turrets stat ... -25% capa cons on all AMARR TURRETS !!! Wait always for the promised change of all ships amarrs and all beams turret ... Sigh. The point of the skill is to make it in such a way that only amarr can use lasers still. I dont think that the devs want minmatar to be flying around with lasers because they dont use much cap, yet do good damage.... If the mintamar fly with lasers, they get a huge hit to the good old capacitor. Someone keeps truncating my signature, I swear
Deious Troeyd Minmatar Kalear Fleet Systems	Posted - 2007.05.24 03:30:00 - [15] I don't see why Minmatar shouldnt be able to fly around using lasers.. afterall Amarr ships fly around with autocannon all the time :p Also under the old character generation system some bloodlines would start with small laser. The devs should either make using non racial weaponry practical for some uses (ie using ACs for the low grid/cap) or simply make it so you cannot fit non racials on the ships. Unfortunately as it stands pretty much only Amarr gain from using other races weapons because of their ships high grid and cap to deal with lasers.
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar Retribution Corp.	Posted - 2007.05.24 13:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Lance Fighter Edited by: Lance Fighter on 22/05/2007 00:30:53 Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh There is allready a skill that reduced capacitator use for guns, it is however not limited to amarr. Also adding a skill that gioves a bonus to a certain ship would be a bit silly, why not just add the bonus to the ship itself? The same principle is still viable as most bonustes are affected by skill level. sigh. Have you ever shot a laser? Flew an amarr ship? LOOKED at an amarr ship for that matter? They already HAVE a laser cap use bonus. The point is, ITS USELESS! something that would replace such a bonus would be MUCH appreciated by the amarr community. AND, it would allow the amarr to meet other races - They could have two RELAVENT boni to thier ships. edit - about the skill being made to work for cap use instead of damage bonus... no. It would upset people. perhaps a low ranking skill to go along with it, but dont change what the skill does. Train some "Learn to read" skill dude, and yes i can fly every single t1 amarr ship bar Capitals and several t2 versions. Adding something is not replacing something, There allready is a skill so use the friggin market and buy it and train it to lvl 5. _some_ amarr ships DO NOT have the bonus as of yet. So why not add it to those ships. Just adding a skill for "just amarr" is not the sollution, next week we get a skill to "fix tracking" for only Minmatar ships? And maybe you should use teh shiney search feature, why do you think the first Titans were Amarr ones? ooh thats right there was this time that _everyone_ flew in the same golden shiney ships pew pewing lazorz. And then CCP came around with a Nerfbat, maybe a bit too mutch as at the moment its no longer viable to use some ships for all round pvp. Especialy the advent of the Heavy Assault Ships and higher resistances made the damage type of Amarr less and less usefull. So maybe in stead of a skill, change some stats on the guns itself or even up the damage of teh crystals a little to compensate. Last but not least, when was the last time you saw an Excuror or Bellicose in combat? Not all ships were meant to be good at pvp. So while i agree that its a bit over the top atm it does not mean that an "Amarr only" skill boosting just their ships is the answer.
VoYvod Amarr Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.24 21:23:00 - [17] Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 22/05/2007 11:03:09 Instead of a useless web it will in all probability not be able to use, Amarr fit a tracking disruptor, which does bring artillery range down to pulse laser optimal, and destroys autocannon tracking, forcing the Minmatar ships to either slow down, or do much less damage than the lasers due to low tracking. This counters the Minmatar autocannon tracking advantage and a slow Minmatar can more easily be cornered with neuts. 1. lets look at an amarrian ship - like the armageddon , 3 medium slots - in pvp there is pretty much an unspoken rule of what goes in the medium slots , Warp Diruptors , Cap boosters , webber - how exactly can you fit a tracking disruptor on a ship like the armageddon? 2. lets say you didn't put a web and put a tracking disruptor , that's just an open invitation for them to go circles around you as you can't hit them at all as they're in THEIR optimal without having to run any speed mods, 3. nos/neutralizers on a minmatar ship wouldnt prevent them from shooting .... 4. nos/neutralizers on an amarr ship completely shuts it down sorta... 5. most of the amarr ships are gunboats not EW as you can see on their medium slots / bonuses here's what i'd like to see introduced into eve: 1. A skill similar to advanced weapon upgrades - besides it'll be advanced controlled burst which would reduce cap usage of turrets (not limited to 1 race - that's just racists) 2. Fix the bonuses on some of the amarr ships please, like the omen - it doesn't need a cap reduction bonus either does the maller.. 3. This is what really bothers me - The hyperion has 7,200 capacitor base. That just doesn't seem fair for me being amarr, i know the cap is that size because they fit MWD's but what happened to the idea of the bonus for the Thorax "5% less penalty to max capacitor for MicroWarpdrive usage per level." Seems the hyperion gets 3 bonuses .... You almost get as much cap in an hyperion without a MWD fited as you do in an Apocalypse Which has a bonus to the size of the capacitor - WHAT!?! and look at the abbadon - no cap reduction bonus and obviously a gunboat and yet it has puney cap (not complaining about the abaddon)so lets say a abbadon and hyperion go to fight each other , they both have roughly the same cap size( when the hyperion has a MWD fitted) but the hyperion has a huge speed advantage, just saying that some things in this game aren't balanced well
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.05.25 01:16:00 - [18] It would be much easier to just reduce the capacitor use on lasers and give them a real bonus. Not that that hasnt been proposed many, many times >.> <.< V.V ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.05.25 01:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Ruciza This doesnt work It doesnt work because 1. Autocannons benefit from closing against lasers in all ways. They gain damage as well as tracking 2. Tracking computers require boatloads of CPU 3. Webs are more important for keeping your enemy from running away. Without a web, the opponent just leaves unless you are fast enough to outrun him when the web isnt working. 3. Webs are important for keeping your enemy from closing as fast as they can, especialy in smaller ships. A 3 mid slot amarran ship frigate would be very dangerous to other frigates, since it could stop/slow them at 10km, far outside of their range, and still be shooting at their optimal. This holds true for all amarran ships. 4. The notion that amarr dont have a lot of cap comes from the notion that they really dont have a lot of cap. In order to maintain their range advantage they need to run an MWD, in order to use that range advantage they need to shoot their guns... The range advantage is paramount to making amarr successfull becasue they dont have a damage advantage. But the range advantage is very very small. 5. Unlike Caldari they are unable to field gank and tank at the same time due to cap use, and due to slot overlaping. Which limits their ability to run as a standoff ship. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
alkaponech	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:05:00 - [20] I think CCP does not care for Amarr Bombs and Overheating is more importantF!
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2007.05.26 10:00:00 - [21] well why not. but then plz give us a skill which increses dmg on hybrids and one that helps rof on projectiles but both only on their respective ships :D
Ruciza	Posted - 2007.05.26 11:51:00 - [22] Originally by: VoYvod 5. most of the amarr ships are gunboats not EW as you can see on their medium slots / bonuses Web and scramblers are EW too. Where is the webber bonus on the Thorax? Rules, they are meant to be broken. Are we playing Eve or the mwd-web-scram game? You still want to be solo pirates in Amarr ships. If you get what you want (which I doubt very much), Amarr fly like Minmatar with lasers. Amarr ships don't shut down when they fit neutralizers, because they care about cap and fit accordingly. The opponent always shuts down first. Amarr have enough CPU for tracking disruptors. MWD needs more CPU than the disruptors. Neuts need much less cpu than lasers, and less than nos. You want to fit neuts on Amarr ships, they are screaming for it. And they have enough PG to fit it all, not perfectly, but you won't find that anywhere. Any (same gun size) tracking advantage of the opponent will be offset to an extent where he cannot run around in circles with any hope of hitting. Neutralizers shut down propulsion of faster opponents. Their tank too. Maybe even their EW. It is good and well that Minmatar AC can fire without cap, otherwise they would die easily. He can't do anything at range, and he will die if he comes near. You will find situations where it doesn't work, surprise, you'll find them everywhere.
Brantoc J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2007.05.26 14:05:00 - [23] If you remove cap from the equation, people will then complain about our DPS, which is quite high. In some ways we have a short end of the stick, but we also don't really need to deal with ammo. I think it's all fairly even now, except the Abaddon which doesn't have enough cap for jack and is fairly useless. 8 Tach 2's last about 4 vollys
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.26 14:18:00 - [24] sure ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Azheri Amarr The Unbeholden	Posted - 2007.05.27 04:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh There is allready a skill that reduced capacitator use for guns, it is however not limited to amarr. Also adding a skill that gioves a bonus to a certain ship would be a bit silly, why not just add the bonus to the ship itself? The same principle is still viable as most bonustes are affected by skill level. i dont know if your trying to troll here or are just an ignorant fool, but anyway you got my attention. what your suggesting is what needs to be changed, and dont you think us amarrians knows about "controlled burst" skill already? its not a luxuary skill it needs to be at 5 for every amarr! so just crawl back to your veldspars and activate your script because i can see no real addition to the discussion coming from your input. sorry for the ninja of op, carry on
LOwRANCE	Posted - 2007.05.30 22:17:00 - [26] Ah hey guys ;) i hope u feel good i do. I fly Amar Caldari and gallente up to large t2. what i wanne say to you guys when i read ur post. each race has his advantages and disadvantages you agree that, i think. It¦s true that amar ship¦s really have only one shipbonus! the other one is nessesary because of the cap. But u forgot one think a pulse cannon has more range than other close range ships this is real big advantage ! You can switch crystal¦s in 2 sec¦s means u can switch from short to really high range. Eve is a game that lives from team¦s i always see when i fly with my geddon that i do more damage then a blasterthron depends when they approch i shot and do damage because they have really short range ! thats a pain too belive me ! but it¦s true too with 2 eann II prob that is very popular and a pain for an amar but ... will change the damagetype of crytals solve the problem.maybe it be enogh to change the balance in the crytal to a bit more thermal and less emp i think. it¦s not easy to change one thing without touching other problems or well blanced system, but back to the cap problem. so always we have in an amar ship the cap boni through it away and now u have to choose a new boni what could it be ?! on the geddon for example an additional damage bonus to the rate of fire ? i think not that will get imbalanced. optimal range -> not a good idea then pulse laser come up 70 -90 km (depends on fitting) resistenz bonus some ships have would add additional repp bonus ? :) stopp dreaming so what could it be? it should be usefull and should make the amar not overpowered ! An Amar ship with pulse lasers is not far away from blaster¦s in dps. only the damge type is a litte bit unlucky. ..... i think its not so easy to solve because u dont want to create an imba race but have fair chance to win. at first i think we must stopp try using a ship for things it wasnt build ! i have no idea what there can be done to this problem ! but if someone has a good idea then tell it ;) regards low
bellator militaris	Posted - 2007.08.11 07:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Lance Fighter Edited by: Lance Fighter on 22/05/2007 00:30:53 Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh There is allready a skill that reduced capacitator use for guns, it is however not limited to amarr. Also adding a skill that gioves a bonus to a certain ship would be a bit silly, why not just add the bonus to the ship itself? The same principle is still viable as most bonustes are affected by skill level. sigh. Have you ever shot a laser? Flew an amarr ship? LOOKED at an amarr ship for that matter? They already HAVE a laser cap use bonus. The point is, ITS USELESS! something that would replace such a bonus would be MUCH appreciated by the amarr community. AND, it would allow the amarr to meet other races - They could have two RELAVENT boni to thier ships. edit - about the skill being made to work for cap use instead of damage bonus... no. It would upset people. perhaps a low ranking skill to go along with it, but dont change what the skill does. Excellent Post. Maybe if we keep hammering at CCP they will finally give the Amarr Race what pilots have been screeming about for years.

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