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Jackal79
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Posted - 2007.05.23 20:04:00 -
[1]
Which has more potential given same slot # to tank damage? For armor apparently you can have triple LARs without stacking penalties... That would seem it would regen more per second than a XL Shield booster with 2 amps no? Especially if it is getting that 7.5% armor rep bonus... (why aren't shield bonuses 7.5% instead of 5%?)
Also, it seems armor has better base resists too.
Obviously shield tanking wins with dread/officer invuls, but those are too expensive to consider.
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Nocturnal Avenger
The Ankou
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.05.23 20:21:00 -
[2]
You could probably get 7 large reppers...
Your question cannot be easily answered. There are numerous variables you need to take into consideration first.
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.23 20:28:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Jackal79
(why aren't shield bonuses 7.5% instead of 5%?)
Shield boost bonuses are 7.5% per level.
_________________________
~Thor Xian, Star Commander |
Jackal79
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Posted - 2007.05.23 20:35:00 -
[4]
It can be answered.
7 reppers make a **** tank because
1) Tank won't be able to run for more than a few seconds
2) Poor resists
Were talking "which is the optimal tank type for a "super tank"" not which tank type can rep the most per second. Something sustainable or close to it (assuming proper rigs and plenty of NOS).
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Hayward Cyprus
Caldari
Exiled.
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Posted - 2007.05.23 21:13:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jackal79
Which has more potential given same slot # to tank damage? For armor apparently you can have triple LARs without stacking penalties... That would seem it would regen more per second than a XL Shield booster with 2 amps no? Especially if it is getting that 7.5% armor rep bonus... (why aren't shield bonuses 7.5% instead of 5%?)
Also, it seems armor has better base resists too.
Obviously shield tanking wins with dread/officer invuls, but those are too expensive to consider.
I guess you are referring to resist vs boost bonus, so the answer is 25% increase in resist = 1/(1-25%) better tanking = 1.3333333 (from boosting alone, then you also get passive (shield) tanking bonus plus a potentially bigger hp buffer figuring in resists), rep bonus = 1.375, which about evens it out.
The only ship that doesn't follow that role is the hawk, god knows why ....
As for potential, depends on what damage you must tank and for how long :-). Shield tank always has one more slot as Damage control = low.
Hayward Cyprus
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
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Posted - 2007.05.24 10:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jackal79
Which has more potential given same slot # to tank damage? For armor apparently you can have triple LARs without stacking penalties... That would seem it would regen more per second than a XL Shield booster with 2 amps no? Especially if it is getting that 7.5% armor rep bonus... (why aren't shield bonuses 7.5% instead of 5%?)
Also, it seems armor has better base resists too.
Obviously shield tanking wins with dread/officer invuls, but those are too expensive to consider.
You made me smile, thnx.
Ok the silly remark about different boni has been answered already, I won't go there.
First off: tripple LAR takes a LOT of fitting.. comparing it to a double amped XL booster is absurd, maybe you could compare it to a dual xl booster single amp setup. Have you any idea of the cap amount you're using doing tripple LAR? As for the resists remark, i suppose you're referring to the 'shields start with 0 EM resistance'.. While that is true, if you do the math it's about even at base level (due to regenerating shields in part).
Just because you fly caldari ships (if you were flying minmatar shield tanks you would know about the difference between boost amount and resistance amount bonus..) and see a lot of armour tanks about and only a few, faction fitted, shield tanks, doesn't mean shield tanking is worse..
You just can't compare them on even levels.. Versus npc I would chose a shield tank all the time tbh, the fact you have your low slots for damage mods is just great.. In pvp it all depends on a lot of issues.. solo you really need your med slots for tackling, leaving a gimped shield tank option.
To be really on topic: your question isn't specific enough tbh. 'which has more potential, same slot amount, to tank dmg'.. Solo? How many slots would that be? How many other slots? If you have 6 med slots AND 6 low slots on a ship, not considering bonus I would go for a shield tank solo. Change it to 4 meds AND 4 lows and I would prolly still go for a shield tank. On a 5 meds AND 5 lows I might go for an armour tank.. It really all depends. As mentioned before a damage control takes a low slot and really significantly increases your tankable dmg amount, so a shield tank has a small advantage there.
For more info: /me points to the search option in the top right hand corner.. these threads have been made before .. and before.. and before...
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me..
Drone guide.. |
smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.24 10:45:00 -
[7]
Yay another one of these threads.
Short answer: shield tanking takes more cap but boosts more.
sgb
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.24 10:50:00 -
[8]
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Yay another one of these threads.
Short answer: shield tanking takes more cap but boosts more.
sgb
O RLY? Shield tanking dosent have silly pith-x deadspace items or implant set OR skill that reduces their cap usage?
Yes, BOOST SHIELD TANKING, NERF AMARR .. shees, god! 
"to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
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smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.24 11:02:00 -
[9]
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 24/05/2007 11:00:47
Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Yay another one of these threads.
Short answer: shield tanking takes more cap but boosts more.
sgb
O RLY? Shield tanking dosent have silly pith-x deadspace items or implant set OR skill that reduces their cap usage?
Yes, BOOST SHIELD TANKING, NERF AMARR .. shees, god!
Ok a few minor points:
1) I'm not saying shield tanking needs nerfing/boosting. It's fine.
2) Even with max skills shield tanking still takes more cap than armor. It still boosts more tho.
3) Pith actually requires more cap than normal boosters. It's the gist stuff that needs less, and you are talking about half a billion for those boosters. I believe the equivilant armor stuff is centus, which also reps obscene amounts and costs hundreds of millions.
4) The implant set actually increases shield boosting, not reduces cap usage. It also costs more than your average small country's GDP.
I can conclude a few things from your post.
- You didn't actually read mine, or the rest of the thread.
- You are ammar with no experience of shield tanking.
- You have no idea what you are talking about and should really think before posting in future.
Anyway, having used both extensively due to being minmatar there is nothing wrong with either way of tanking and they are nicely balanced.
sgb
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.05.24 11:15:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Grunanca on 24/05/2007 11:13:03
From flying Minmatar Ships only all of my EVE career, I can conclude that each side has its ups and downs. Shield got best potential for overall protection as you can fit Damage Control and Power Diagnostic systems in low and Boosters, Amplifiers, Extenders and hardeners in med slots. However this will leave you with no tackling at all and very poor damage.
The armor tank can tank a lot for a short amount of time, however as the low slots are taken, you cant fit power diagnostic systems to boost the cap and recharge rate. This can however be done with Cap Batteries and and Cap rechargers in med slots, but then we are right back to no tackling and no dps.
I fly Jaguar and Vagabond in PvP and as these ships almost scream shield tank, thats of course what I use. However if I was to fly a Typhoon or Hurricane in PvP, it would be an armor tank with no doubt.
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ZuN3
kleptomaniacs
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Posted - 2007.05.24 14:42:00 -
[11]
Edited by: ZuN3 on 24/05/2007 14:47:40
Having also flown Minmatar for my entire pvp career, I came to the conclusion that active shield tanking is better. Sleipnir/Maelstrom/Cyclone/shield tanked tempest I feel a lot more comfortable in than in an any armour tanked ship.
Even when I first started trying the shield tanking ships, and had better armour tanking skills than I did shields. I was very surprised at how much better it was. Although I know that I've come across other ships with very formidable armour tanks. Personally, I just can't make them work as well. Typhoon isn't *bad* but, meh.
Edit: Yes I am aware that the Mael, Sleip and Cyclone have shield boost bonuses. Although the tempest doesn't and I still prefer shield tanked tempests over armour tanked ones in gangs.
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Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.05.24 15:02:00 -
[12]
ô2) Even with max skills shield tanking still takes more cap than armor. It still boosts more tho.ö
ThatÆs not always true sometimes shield tanking gives more of a boost for far less cap.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Githtakai
Gallente
Crab and Krawdad Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.05.24 15:58:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Githtakai on 24/05/2007 15:57:52
Originally by: Pottsey
ô2) Even with max skills shield tanking still takes more cap than armor. It still boosts more tho.ö
ThatÆs not always true sometimes shield tanking gives more of a boost for far less cap.
Yes, what Pottsey said. Shield tanking used to take more cap and people keep saying that. Ever since T2 shield boost amps came out with revelations you can build, in equal slot count, a shield tank that boosts more hp AND more hp per cap.
It even takes less fitting and skills.
Compare shield boost + boost amp to dual rep
For extra bonus slot flexibility you can also use both mid and low slots for a shield tank (DCU, PDS in lows).
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Aleranie
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Posted - 2007.05.24 16:43:00 -
[14]
Shield has numerous advantages:
1, passive regen. It might not seem like much, but when you add up the total in any lengthy fight, the amount of free-hp is rather large.
2, shield booster duration is much shorter than armor, it also boosts at the START of the rep cycle, and not the end.
The ONLY reason shield tanks aren't more common is medium slots are more precious than low in pvp, and ships are more likely to run out of cpu before running out of power.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.24 17:05:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 24/05/2007 17:05:49
One aspect that should not be ignored aswell, when comparing the cap-issue of the tanks:
The best cap-modules are cap power relays, and they are broken for shieldtanks becaus of their boost discrimination.
2nd best are cap rechargers, which again mostly are useful for armortankers as shieldtankers need their medslots for sb, sbas, resists. So the shieldtankers then have to chose pds ... but if you take caldari shieldtankers expecially those with missiles, they need at least 3 damagemods in the lows to counter that low dps.
Best numbers for cap will be achieved with sb+2 sba II (they are stacking nerfed but the 2nd sba gives more hp than the first) but then this is very hard to fit, usually this will take 1 lowslot for a cpu upgrade.
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Edsel
Dominus Nihil Development
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Posted - 2007.05.24 17:13:00 -
[16]
there are cap flux's too. you would be in trouble if you get nossed due to the reduction in total cap but the regen increase can be worth it and your boost ammount wont get cut.
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smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.24 17:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Pottsey
ô2) Even with max skills shield tanking still takes more cap than armor. It still boosts more tho.ö
ThatÆs not always true sometimes shield tanking gives more of a boost for far less cap.
My bad, was just irritated at the idiot above who seems to have left the thread now :)
I hadn't actually noticed that fitting SBAIIs actually put shield tanking past armor tanking in terms of cap usage. It never seems that way when I turn mine on.
sgb
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
VentureCorp
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.05.24 17:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hayward Cyprus
Originally by: Jackal79
Which has more potential given same slot # to tank damage? For armor apparently you can have triple LARs without stacking penalties... That would seem it would regen more per second than a XL Shield booster with 2 amps no? Especially if it is getting that 7.5% armor rep bonus... (why aren't shield bonuses 7.5% instead of 5%?)
Also, it seems armor has better base resists too.
Obviously shield tanking wins with dread/officer invuls, but those are too expensive to consider.
I guess you are referring to resist vs boost bonus, so the answer is 25% increase in resist = 1/(1-25%) better tanking = 1.3333333 (from boosting alone, then you also get passive (shield) tanking bonus plus a potentially bigger hp buffer figuring in resists), rep bonus = 1.375, which about evens it out.
The only ship that doesn't follow that role is the hawk, god knows why ....
As for potential, depends on what damage you must tank and for how long :-). Shield tank always has one more slot as Damage control = low.
Hayward Cyprus
how many battleships have 7 mids?
now how many non capitals have 7 lows? (hint, a lot)
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Sionide
Axe Gang
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Posted - 2007.05.24 17:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Yay another one of these threads.
Short answer: shield tanking takes more cap but boosts more.
sgb
And don't forget, shield tanking also boosts faster (less cycle time)
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.26 08:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: smallgreenblur
My bad, was just irritated at the idiot above who seems to have left the thread now :)
Aah, sweet smell of harasment petition in the morning.
Beside, your just angry because I pointed out that shield tanking IS better than armor tanking but armor tanking used in PvP due medslots needed for scram,injektor,web-combo.
"to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
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Incantare
Caldari
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.26 09:16:00 -
[21]
Someone already posted it but it's worth repeating: shield tanking isn't 'better' because it's much harder to sustain. Reason being CPRs nerf your boost amount, rechargers and boosters nerf your tank and PDUs don't give that much of a bonus, so while a shield tanker will initially be tanking more, he'll cap out sooner than an equivalent armor tank.
Seems balanced to me.
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smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.26 10:22:00 -
[22]
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 26/05/2007 10:21:07
Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: smallgreenblur
My bad, was just irritated at the idiot above who seems to have left the thread now :)
Aah, sweet smell of harasment petition in the morning.
Beside, your just angry because I pointed out that shield tanking IS better than armor tanking but armor tanking used in PvP due medslots needed for scram,injektor,web-combo.
No, I'm just irritated because you haven't noticed that I said exactly the same thing as you. Twice.
As I said before, shield tanking boosts more but uses more cap. As I have now been corrected by Pottsey, it does not in fact always use more cap these days due to the prevalance of Shield Boost Amp IIs.
They are still balanced, however, IMO.
sgb
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