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Ammath
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
   |
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:51:00 -
[1]
In every MMO there are GMs who play as players and there are good reasons for this from an objective perspective. They can experience the game as the players do and it helps them figure out ways of altering game play to make the game more fun.
The problems come when the human factor gets involved. I'll share a story of the downfall of Asheron's Call as my example. The GMs were all very bored with the 6-8 normal game servers and all went over to the PVP server and played there, for the next year almost every game update and patch and fix was done to improve PVP in the game at the expense of storyline content, and new features for the 90% of the players who didn't PVP. AC bled players... then a hack for the game came out that if used made you almost un-killable in the game and the PVPers dove on it in droves, it was detectable when used and they claimed they had lists of the abusers. The company spend SIX MONTHS trying to fix the exploit instead of just banning accounts that were using the exploit. In that six months AC lost more and more and more players because the repeated exploit use, no new content, and all game dev focus being on PVP. What was a very promising game with an innovative setting turned into crap. The GMs were too focused on their own characters' fun to be bothered with the 90% of the game who didn't play that way. And thus lost almost all their player base except the PVPers....
This lesson should be learned CCP. Have all your staff even on their personal accounts on non-company time largely focusing on the big big big alliances and big big big things in the game and as human beings it alters the perspective on game play, from what's fun, to what's fair, to who are good players, and who are bad. Personal relationships get made and people have a hard time thinking poorly of their friends and acquaintances because to do so makes them look bad. This is human nature.
Why this is even worse in eve has to do with the game design paradigm. Losses mean something, when your ship goes down you lose it, and everything on board, when you get podded you lose your implants. You dont appear at a resurrection point with all your stuff and a minor penalty for a few hours, or no penalty at all. Days, Hours, Months, Years of hard game play are lost in seconds. Its demoralizing, its stressful, and I know many people who won't play eve because of it, or have quit. What makes it worse is when known unbalanced things are left untouched for months, when exploiters are largely left unchecked its even further demoralizing and you end up not wanting to play anymore I quit for a year out of frustration and came back, and honestly i'm thinking of quitting again nothing has really changed.
You guys think EvE players are whiners, oh boy wait until the Vampire crowd plays your new game and something similar to these events happens there. You will be in for a treat dealing with people who have been passionate about their game system for a decade or more. You better get a handle on this stuff now and put some policies and rules in place for your employees and volunteers NOW and test them in regards to EvE or you are in for a world of pain instead of a world of darkness.
Death and losses mean something in EvE, territory means something in EvE... this is vastly different than almost any other MMO out there as such CCP you need to really look at your Employees as players policies and put some control in, do some serious damage-control on whats already happened, and move forward in a more open and honest way if you want this to stop. Otherwise, it won't. The revelations will continue to come from the whistle-blowers and it will continue to tarnish EvE and CCP's reputation.
Do something, don't just talk. You don't need to name names or fire employees people just want to know something effective is being done and reparations are being made.
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Gorken
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:08:00 -
[2]
/signed
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:09:00 -
[3]
What is with all the whine threads about corruption lately, did someone dig up the t20 thread or something?
Seriously, play the goddamn game, or get out. Its not hard.
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Ceasarian Pullo
Minmatar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:14:00 -
[4]
it is difficult to play the game when devs help a specific alliance who is targeting the space that you had to play the game to get...sheesh
/signed
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 30/05/2007 21:14:12
"You don't need to name names or fire employees"
Factcheck: That is precisely what is being called for by a certain faction.
Also, sure, some devs are in alliances. But not all of them ...the same rules apply to everyone in Eve, and a heck of a lot more than 10% of all players in an alliance. I think your concern is badly overblown.
Ceasarian Pullo, yea, when CCP didn't ban all of ISS, goonswarm and some smaller players for the client-side local exploit that certainly DID screw things up, called them on it before.
//Maya |
Mekarae
Amarr
House Mekarae
|
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:15:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Derovius Vaden
What is with all the whine threads about corruption lately, did someone dig up the t20 thread or something?
Seriously, play the goddamn game, or get out. Its not hard.
Guess you haven't been reading the news and DevBlogs. It's been one hell of a firestorm the last few days.
--------------------------
"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
The RepoMan
Caldari
Red Horizon Inc
Red Horizon
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:16:00 -
[7]
I cant even find the words for how dumb this thread is. GMs are NOT DEVS, they serve two very different purposes, gms have no say in what gets changed unless it's directly related to doing their jobs as gms.
And I started out on AC, and like most players hold it in very high regard, and how you could say something so stupid and completely false about it is an insult to all those who played and worked on the game.
I pray that you're just a very talented troll and that people who believe this drivel dont actually exist in life, otherwise we're totally screwed as a species.
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Maniva Lakona
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:36:00 -
[8]
Welcome to f.ucking re.tard central. What is with these forums!
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Thanos Draicon
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:40:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Seriously, play the goddamn game, or get out. Its not hard.
QFMFT.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
AFK
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:40:00 -
[10]
You've based your entire post on false assumptions (the biggest one being that all CCP staff is big alliances).
I'd spend more time debunking your post, but first I'll see if this stays unlocked :)
=AFK=
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Mekarae
Amarr
House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:40:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mekarae on 30/05/2007 21:40:51
Originally by: Ammath
...You better get a handle on this stuff now and put some policies and rules in place for your employees and volunteers NOW and test them in regards to EvE or you are in for a world of pain instead of a world of darkness...
I get an uncomfortable feeling we are going to see more and more of this in the future. I'm begining to think CCP as an entity has not fully comprehended the significance of these events or their future ramifications.
With ISK having real currency value, through the trading of time cards for ISK, then virtual assets in Eve also have real value. The more and more real value involved the more we can expect vitriolic responses from the community at mere suggestions of the playing field not being level. Lawyers are a natural extension of the process to protect the value of one's assets on either side.
I fear we are not seeing the end but just the begining. The opening of Pandora's Box.
--------------------------
"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:49:00 -
[12]
Are you aware that in every MMO there are GMs who play as players and there are good reasons for this from an objective perspective. They can experience the game as the players do and it helps them figure out ways of altering game play to make the game more fun. The problems come when the human factor gets involved. I'll share a story of the downfall of Asheron's Call as my example. The GMs were all very bored with the 6-8 normal game servers and all went over to the PVP server and played there, for the next year almost every game update and patch and fix was done to improve PVP in the game at the expense of storyline content, and new features for the 90% of the players who didn't PVP. AC bled players... then a hack for the game came out that if used made you almost un-killable in the game and the PVPers dove on it in droves, it was detectable when used and they claimed they had lists of the abusers. The company spend SIX MONTHS trying to fix the exploit instead of just banning accounts that were using the exploit. In that six months AC lost more and more and more players because the repeated exploit use, no new content, and all game dev focus being on PVP. What was a very promising game with an innovative setting turned into crap. The GMs were too focused on their own characters' fun to be bothered with the 90% of the game who didn't play that way. And thus lost almost all their player base except the PVPers.... This lesson should be learned CCP. Have all your staff even on their personal accounts on non-company time largely focusing on the big big big alliances and big big big things in the game and as human beings it alters the perspective on game play, from what's fun, to what's fair, to who are good players, and who are bad. Personal relationships get made and people have a hard time thinking poorly of their friends and acquaintances because to do so makes them look bad. This is human nature. Why this is even worse in eve has to do with the game design paradigm. Losses mean something, when your ship goes down you lose it, and everything on board, when you get podded you lose your implants. You dont appear at a resurrection point with all your stuff and a minor penalty for a few hours, or no penalty at all. Days, Hours, Months, Years of hard game play are lost in seconds. Its demoralizing, its stressful, and I know many people who won't play eve because of it, or have quit. What makes it worse is when known unbalanced things are left untouched for months, when exploiters are largely left unchecked its even further demoralizing and you end up not wanting to play anymore I quit for a year out of frustration and came back, and honestly i'm thinking of quitting again nothing has really changed. You guys think EvE players are whiners, oh boy wait until the Vampire crowd plays your new game and something similar to these events happens there. You will be in for a treat dealing with people who have been passionate about their game system for a decade or more. You better get a handle on this stuff now and put some policies and rules in place for your employees and volunteers NOW and test them in regards to EvE or you are in for a world of pain instead of a world of darkness. Death and losses mean something in EvE, territory means something in EvE... this is vastly different than almost any other MMO out there as such CCP you need to really look at your Employees as players policies and put some control in, do some serious damage-control on whats already happened, and move forward in a more open and honest way if you want this to stop. Otherwise, it won't. The revelations will continue to come from the whistle-blowers and it will continue to tarnish EvE and CCP's reputation. Do something, don't just talk. You don't need to name names or fire employees people just want to know something effective is being done and reparations are being made.
____ __ ________
_sig below_
the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Gorken
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:52:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Gorken on 30/05/2007 21:51:25
Originally by: SiJira
Iron curtain
break this up pls
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Mekarae
Amarr
House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: SiJira
...wall of text...
My eyes hurt. Make with some paragraphs.
--------------------------
"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: SiJira
...bleh...
Macro poster!
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ammath
...do some serious damage-control on whats already happened, and move forward in a more open and honest way if you want this to stop. Otherwise, it won't. The revelations will continue to come from the whistle-blowers and it will continue to tarnish EvE and CCP's reputation.
Do something, don't just talk. You don't need to name names or fire employees people just want to know something effective is being done and reparations are being made.
And what exactly has already happened? What needs to stop?
CCP was the target of a smear campaign that had no truth to it whatsoever. CCP has looked in to it. CCP has answered the allegations. CCP does have an internal policing mechanism. CCP is more forthcoming than any Dev community I can think of.
If that is not enough for you and you believe the Devs are out spawning Titans for players at request then leave. A moment's worth of critical thinking rather than bandwagon jumping and you should realize this is not the case however.
|
Quetzalcoatle
Silver Snake Enterprise
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 30/05/2007 21:16:54
Ceasarian Pullo, yea, when CCP didn't ban all of ISS, goonswarm and some smaller players for the client-side local exploit that certainly DID screw things up, called them on it before.
I must be dim, but what has ISS got to do with this? 
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Supermarket Su
Amarr
Hedion University
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Posted - 2007.05.30 22:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
What is with all the whine threads about corruption lately, did someone dig up the t20 thread or something?
Seriously, play the goddamn game, or get out. Its not hard.
sometimes its better to keep your mouth closed and just look stupid, than to open it and remove all doubt 
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Major Stormer
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.05.30 22:06:00 -
[19]
Dead horse. Beating. Stop it.
Its just a game. Get over yourselfs. |
Red Harvest
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Posted - 2007.05.30 22:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
And what exactly has already happened? What needs to stop?
CCP was the target of a smear campaign that had no truth to it whatsoever. CCP has looked in to it. CCP has answered the allegations. CCP does have an internal policing mechanism. CCP is more forthcoming than any Dev community I can think of.
If that is not enough for you and you believe the Devs are out spawning Titans for players at request then leave. A moment's worth of critical thinking rather than bandwagon jumping and you should realize this is not the case however.
Damn right Jora¦h!
Nothing but lots of hot air without anything behind all those posts. 
|
Khatred
Fluffy Mungoose
Guinea Pigs
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Posted - 2007.05.30 22:24:00 -
[21]
I don't know about wich period are you talking about but if it's during early 1999 - late 2001, you are very misinformed.
And by the looks of it you are just a very biased carebear who couldn't hack it on DT.
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Ammath
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
|
Posted - 2007.05.30 22:26:00 -
[22]
Lol,
So seriously now. You don't think that someone who plays a game in a particular style ends up with an outlook on the game that is skewed to their chosen style of play? Thats kind of obvious don't you think?
My point is that unless there is some master plan from CCP to seed its staff into a variety of corps/ alliances/ character types whatever to cover a wide range of play styles in the game there is obvious potential for a distorted perception of things in the game.
I don't think its some sinister plot to deliberately hook up one or more groups of players, thats just crazy talk. But I do think that CCP needs to be a little more transparent on how they handle these issues of concern.
Many people who are not conspiracy-theorists think there is something rotten in the game and if its just perception and not truth then fine... show us. If there is truth behind it deal with it decisively and fairly and be honest.
Ammath
Director
The 5 Amigos LLC
|
Camaro
Gallente
WKK Inc.
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:25:00 -
[23]
Quote:
And what exactly has already happened? What needs to stop?
CCP was the target of a smear campaign that had no truth to it whatsoever. CCP has looked in to it. CCP has answered the allegations. CCP does have an internal policing mechanism. CCP is more forthcoming than any Dev community I can think of.
If that is not enough for you and you believe the Devs are out spawning Titans for players at request then leave. A moment's worth of critical thinking rather than bandwagon jumping and you should realize this is not the case however.
I have to agree that CCP is more forthcoming.
Heck, i remember i reported farmers in wow (gets on flame protection), that actually resulted in Blizzard banning my account, since they belived i were a farmer aswell, just reporting the compotition. When that happend, i went back here, and have to say i like it again.
100.000 isk for every GM and dev that sign my signature!!! |
Ladyah Liandri
VMF-214 Blacksheep
|
Posted - 2007.05.31 13:30:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
What is with all the whine threads about corruption lately, did someone dig up the t20 thread or something?
Seriously, play the goddamn game, or get out. Its not hard.
Originally by: Maniva Lakona
Welcome to f.ucking re.tard central. What is with these forums!
Originally by: Thanos Draicon
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Seriously, play the goddamn game, or get out. Its not hard.
QFMFT.
Seriously, play the goddamn game - we don't need these posts. Its not hard.
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E Vile
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:35:00 -
[25]
There is NO WAY this game is ever going to be fair with devs in player corps.
How are you going to petition a bug in your POS if your nervous the dev fixing might be in your enemies corp?
How can you promise there will NEVER be ANY conflict of interest.
Say your a dev that is responding to a bugged station (just for example), what if it's a enemy of your corp? How can a dev remain impartial?
Make devs special characters if they want to be ingame. City of heroes has a good idea with that. Make them the special leaders of npc factions, or something that can regain the fairplay this game lacks.
Would be really cool to have events based around these special dev characters.
I see no possible way this game can be on fair grounds with devs in player corps. Make the test center open to dev as players, give us a new dev free universe, or make them special characters that do not effect player corps, but add what can be alot of fun, and draw to the game.
If nothing is changed, this problem is not going anywhere, but I promise alot of players will.
"The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering."
Shohadaku New York Metal |
Ladyah Liandri
VMF-214 Blacksheep
|
Posted - 2007.05.31 13:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ammath
*snip*
This lesson should be learned CCP. Have all your staff even on their personal accounts on non-company time largely focusing on the big big big alliances and big big big things in the game and as human beings it alters the perspective on game play, from what's fun, to what's fair, to who are good players, and who are bad. Personal relationships get made and people have a hard time thinking poorly of their friends and acquaintances because to do so makes them look bad. This is human nature.
*snip*
/double signed.
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Thesas
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:54:00 -
[27]
I just want to know the rules for this game.
The rules that apply to players and the rules that apply to CCP.
This should not be a difficult question.
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Switchbl4d3 ii
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:01:00 -
[28]
GM's are entitled to play the game as long as they subscribe along with everyone else.
On the case of the BPO's, it's a little known fact that the abuse didnt stop there, and has been going on since retail. The abuse in question? Knoledge!. A conflict of interest from a programmer. Ok say for instance i spend all day programming a lucerative system laden with NPC's and say for instance i load the loot tables with officer/faction stuff. Where do u think ill be NPC'ing 
Anyway, all activity by GM should really be discreet even secretive to there employer
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:04:00 -
[29]
My opinion on GM's and Dev's playing the game:
When off the clock, they are players. And as such are bound to same rules- When on the clock(in other words, working), they are GM's and devs and should not(probably don't even), "play" the game.
Clearly two different people.
I don't expect a taxi driver to take me home when he's off the clock, or go to a bakers house to buy a cake from him.
It's really rather simple.
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i take
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:15:00 -
[30]
we have already been around this a couple of times..
they should just fix it, so it's not possible
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