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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:25:00 -
[1]
I have been speaking with corp mates and old alliance mates and they have suggested I post this. I have mentioned it a few times in replying to posts but have little feedback so now I am trying a post on its own.
Most of us in Eve base our gameplay on a balance between risk and reward. Our corp produces a few T1/T2 items as well as some POS output. We also need to buy POS fuel, and the POS materials we can't mine/react.
Over the years we have tried to sell our products in various system/regions other than Jita with limited success. Some time ago however we started selling almost all our gear in Jita.
In Jita we can sell a months output in maybe a day or two. We can also purchase all we need for probably the cheapest price in Eve. Thanks to freighters we can move the stuff quickly to our production bases and POS very efficiently.
We are obviously not the only corp to do this. Even the other hub systems can't compete with Jita.
As for profits we could make more in other regions but the goods can take weeks or more to sell.
As for risk / reward its a no brainer to sell/buy in Jita. Why should we sell in other areas when the risk of not selling is so high and the tax's we pay are the same. Why should we sell in the lower secuity systems when empire ganking is on the increase and the pirates just love haulers/freigthers in low sec. Same applies for people buying goods, why risk collecting the goods when Jita is nice and safe(ish).
The tax I pay in Jita is almost the same as I pay in any other system.
Maybe its time to increase sales/purchase tax in the high sec systems and reduce it in the lower sec systems and eliminate it in low sec. 0.0 Tax's would stay the same as they would be set by the system owner.
If people want to buy/sell in Jita and other hubs they have to pay a premium for that. As to what is a fair tax I have no idea, but lets make it an unfair tax escalating over time based on volume. We used to have a corp base in Jita but when the cost hit 5mil we closed it down. I think the same corp base is now hitting 500mil.
I am sure some people will still continue to sell high end gear in Jita but many will move out over time. And lets be honest if we can reduce Jita load by a few 100 players in will reduce lag. It could also persuade folks to sell in other regions when tax breaks could make the difference. Since Invention more and more folks are dumping their gear in Jita for a quick sale.
The current broker fee of 100isk for changing a sell order by 0.01 isk should hurt a little more. I am just as guilty as the next man of checking my orders from 15 jumps away and making the 0.01 change to a buy/sell order. It works for me.
Maybe the much proposed "bus" courier service will help but I think we have been waiting 2 years or more for this service and I have yet to see it mentioned in the notes for Rev 2.
If Jita and hubs are low risk then we should pay a premium for this. Its then up to the community to decide what an acceptable premium is.
Now I wonder what the community think?
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:33:00 -
[2]
Well... it would be an enormous isk-sink.
All you'd end up doing, though, is moving trade from Jita right next door to New Cal, and then Amarr (Oris), and then Kador Prime, and so on. A new hub would spring up in under a month.
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Barbarellas Daughter
Lonely Barbarella
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:37:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Amarria Black
Well... it would be an enormous isk-sink.
All you'd end up doing, though, is moving trade from Jita right next door to New Cal, and then Amarr (Oris), and then Kador Prime, and so on. A new hub would spring up in under a month.
tax rate based on market volume rather than sec status would fix this?
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Xonkra
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:44:00 -
[4]
all this will do is make everything more expencive as people will add the tax to the sell price 
Originally by: Illyria Ambri
No matter how you want to say it.. it always sounds like
*frog clearing throat* "Ve zurrendur, dunt schuut"
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Bazan Kor
STK Scientific
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Xonkra
all this will do is make everything more expencive as people will add the tax to the sell price
Which will make things in other regions/systems appear cheaper so people will hopefully move there to buy their goods.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter
Originally by: Amarria Black
Well... it would be an enormous isk-sink.
All you'd end up doing, though, is moving trade from Jita right next door to New Cal, and then Amarr (Oris), and then Kador Prime, and so on. A new hub would spring up in under a month.
tax rate based on market volume rather than sec status would fix this?
Seems like overkill. You'd cut overall market volume due to inconvenience, and prices would inflate as traders passed the extra cost / PITA on to consumers, coupled with a decline in direct competition. Systems and clusters of systems that border 2-3 regions would become the new rotating hubs.
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Digital Anarchist
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:50:00 -
[7]
The cure is worse than the disease. Think mercury-laden cough medicine.
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Nerf government! |
Wadaya
Caldari
Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:52:00 -
[8]
Delete local from Jita, a fair # of people in the system are just spamming links to contracts. That and have autopilot skip Jita as a passthrough system. Should only end up there if you fly manual or it is your destination.
Wad
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:58:00 -
[9]
I think tax which increases by market volume would be good. The only reason people shop in Jita so religiously is due to the nigh unbeatable prices there. If taxes increased, traders would have to raise their prices, so people would have more incentive to shop elsewhere. And if another hub starts to get too busy, the taxes will automatically increase there too!
The hubs will likely still exist, but atleast theres an extra incentive to avoid them.
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Scar3Crow
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:03:00 -
[10]
If they tax jita the market will just shift to the next system along
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Marquis Dean
Demise and Vestige
9th Fleet
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:11:00 -
[11]
How can so many people miss the entire point of Eve so completely.
Someone have a little think about why we all hate WoW so much. Because there are alot of binding rules on what we can or cannot do, and we love Eve because it's a sandbox and we have near-unlimited freedom. The moment CCP start introducing 'special measures' to the game to try to force people to do things, Eve will lose some of it's freedom.
Rerouting stargates is one thing, but forcing people out of Jita is never going to be the answer, and the OP is painfully stupid to have not realised that. It's up to the players to sort it out.
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Originally by: Galack Fyar
Burn in a hole
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Marquis Dean
How can so many people miss the entire point of Eve so completely.
Someone have a little think about why we all hate WoW so much. Because there are alot of binding rules on what we can or cannot do, and we love Eve because it's a sandbox and we have near-unlimited freedom. The moment CCP start introducing 'special measures' to the game to try to force people to do things, Eve will lose some of it's freedom.
Rerouting stargates is one thing, but forcing people out of Jita is never going to be the answer, and the OP is painfully stupid to have not realised that. It's up to the players to sort it out.
Sir,
I think you are a little nieve for not realising the current problems in Jita can not continue. Since invention Jita load at peak times is over 700 and rising.
I am not suggesting CCP stop people trading in Jita or the other hubs but to simply balance the process in the same way that other aspects of Eve are. Risk / Reward. At the moment there is little incentive for me to sell good in another location.
As for me being stupid then your reply was a fine example of someone who lacks the maturity and intellegance to counter the arguments I have raised in my post. If you disagree then please learn to express yourself without resorting to playground and childish petty insults. They are not becomming of you your corp or your alliance.
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Mesuno
Azure Horizon
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:58:00 -
[13]
I think this is actually a sound idea. This whole game operates on risk and reward, and many of those rewards are self correcting.
For example mission rewards are self adjusting based on how many people run them, how quickly etc... so harder missions pay more.
Hubs exist because people want the convenience of shopping all in one place. In real life this is the equivalent of a shopping mall, of center of town high street. Local governments often offer incentives when they want particular regions developed such as tax breaks for a certain amount of time. This helps stimulate broader development, and rejeuvenate depressed areas.
In eve their is no such control - tax is the same regardless of whether you are trading in Jita or some 0.0 backwater.
If tax rates were linked to the volume of trade then we would mostly likely still see hubs forming but they would end up being more dispersed instead of being effectively 'superhubs' as they are now.
No one ends up being forced out of Jita unless they decide profits are greater elsewhere.
As for costs being passed on to customers - they can see the whole of the market in their region and they can choose to buy cheaper (less taxed) stuff from somewhere else. If you want to pay the premium for convenience you can.
** ** ** ** ** **
Originally by: t20
If it's not fixed by the christmas holidays, I'll most likely get fired.
- on the forum "!" problem |
James Duar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:58:00 -
[14]
God ******* damn it no no no. Do you know why people go to Jita? The same ******* reason people go to strip malls which cost somewhat more and take somewhat more effort to get to then ******* Jita in internet ******* spaceships.
Jita is a MARKET hub. People go there to access MARKETS because no one want to fly all over EVEville to buy new stuff especially if they need large quantities. It's not the only market hub, other examples are Amarr and Oursulaert and most 0.0 alliances have small centralized hubs for themselves. It's human nature, deal with it.
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Oriella Trikassi
Trikassi Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: KingKenny
The tax I pay in Jita is almost the same as I pay in any other system.
Put yourself in the position of Mininela Erinen (CEO, Caldari Navy). At Jita 4/4, you are sitting on a golden egg. The ISK from station docking fees and taxes is pouring in. I would guess it is a significant percentage of the Navy's income. Yet yours is not a commercial Corp - the Caldari Navy doesn't even have a commercial Division.
The temptation is certainly there to raise fees and earn even more ISK. However the Market is notoriously volatile in this respect - look what happened to Yulai. Besides, all that traffic is a perfect cover for covert activities. If I was CEO, I'd edge tax up very carefully, and at the first sign of an actual drop in traffic (as opposed to complaints) I'd stop.
In game terms? That would be some mechanism that caused taxes to increase at stations with unusually high Market volumes (Trade Hubs) but not quickly or excessively. If Market volume began to fall the increases would stop immediately.
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Trikassi Enterprises, oiling the jumpgates of commerce since 2004 |
KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: James Duar
God ******* damn it no no no. Do you know why people go to Jita? The same ******* reason people go to strip malls which cost somewhat more and take somewhat more effort to get to then ******* Jita in internet ******* spaceships.
Jita is a MARKET hub. People go there to access MARKETS because no one want to fly all over EVEville to buy new stuff especially if they need large quantities. It's not the only market hub, other examples are Amarr and Oursulaert and most 0.0 alliances have small centralized hubs for themselves. It's human nature, deal with it.
Oh Dear,
Another one who thinks proffanity will help their argument, it actually makes you look a little silly, I am sure your better than that.
I think Shopping Malls are great we even have them in the UK you know. Sadly these malls have wonderful lag free parking for 10,000 cars and lag free shopping (except at Xmas).
But lets be honest, the USA does not have 1 shopping mall now does it, it has 1000's but people still buy goods on the high street do they not. As a buyer and seller of goods I have no option but to sell/buy in Jita cos thats where its cheapest, its where the demand is and its almost risk free. I should pay a premium for this, as should my customers.
I am sure the devs have figures but I would guess 80% of empire trade is done in 1 station out of 5000 solar systems. Now that does not sound right to me.
I think we need to expand trade and make it more profitable for trading in lower sec and low sec systems. I know the demand is there but I simply can't compete with Jita on anything other than the basic stuff.
Many have POS's in Low Sec and Empire and yet most will get their fuel from Jita and other hubs. Most will then take their moon stuff back to Jita to sell it. Why?, simply becuase they know it will sell quickly.
Lets build a few more Malls around Eve.
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:39:00 -
[17]
ilike beeing able to buy everything at the same place
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Buyerr
ilike beeing able to buy everything at the same place
That is rather the problem- if people didn't like it, it wouldn't be happening, would it? 
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:44:00 -
[19]
If factional warfare pans out as it sounds it might, whereby players are seen as enemies by NPCs in navies opposing the players aligned faction, then new hubs will start to appear. If the trader can't physically get to Jita without being blown up, then they are going to start a new hub elsewhere. So you'll start finding trade hubs popping up in each faction territory. This is what we want.
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Plave Okice
Gallente
Combat Systems
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:53:00 -
[20]
Remove all but one gate and make it a dead end system.
That will stop through traffic, as for all the other issues, another hub would be created somewhere else, wtz makes it easy for anyone to fly to any other single system, it's the way it is and it won't change.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.06.03 14:34:00 -
[21]
so... you want jita to be less laggy so you can go there more often - any by that create more lag?
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Tyrenical
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.03 14:35:00 -
[22]
First of all your argument can be voided very easily. You are comparing a country, say the UK, with thousands of shopping malls, to EVE, a small city in real life standards. The reason there are thousands of shopping malls in one country, is that accessing a single location is not practicle when it can take even days to get to a destination in a country. This however is not the case in EVE. The time it takes to get anywhere is relatively small and will only take at most a couple of hours from the farthest reaches of the EVE universe.
People seek oppourtunities to increase efficency in everything they do. Creating a market hub is no diffrent. Why honnestly, do you want to waste your time going to ten diffrent places to get your stuff? I personally would much rather buy it all in one place and for the cheepest price. I know it sure makes my life far easier. And as for lag, The time saved buying everything in one place far outweighs the immensely painful task of waisting an additional hour going to diffrent places to buy stuff.
The EVE market system is based on Free Capitalism, obviously there is a large demand for having a market hub because as even you stated it probably does house the majority of market transactions on any single day.
Also, as jita is the biggest market hub, how can you honnestly expect to match volumes in any other system? Its completely common to have the cheepest prices in the biggest market because there the competion is the most fierce. As volume of sales goes down prices tend to gradually rise as a result, and this is what you see in less popular market hubs, slightly decreased volumes but slightly increased profits. So by selling in a less populated market, you will make more but sell less. Mabye you SHOULD try this, unless you absolutely HAVE to sell your one month's supply in one or two days.
_______________________________________________
Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Steppa
Gallente
Incognito Inc
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Posted - 2007.06.03 14:41:00 -
[23]
Location, location, location.
The more desireable, the more you pay all the way around. I'm all for tying station tax to something like a sheer volume of transactions and adjusting it on a weekly basis.
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 14:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
so... you want jita to be less laggy so you can go there more often - any by that create more lag?
With the current influx of players to Jita I am not sure it can handle many more, by the time Rev 2 comes maybe we could see 900 or 1000 players in Jita and that could crash the node. This helps no one.
There is little risk / reward as things stand and its the only profesion within Eve that operates with this model.
I am happy to contine to use Jita, its easy and our corp can make a living from the trade. I think that with 5000 solar systems we need more than 1 major trade hub and as a game we need to encorage better distribuition of goods.
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 15:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tyrenical
First of all your argument can be voided very easily. You are comparing a country, say the UK, with thousands of shopping malls, to EVE, a small city in real life standards. The reason there are thousands of shopping malls in one country, is that accessing a single location is not practicle when it can take even days to get to a destination in a country. This however is not the case in EVE. The time it takes to get anywhere is relatively small and will only take at most a couple of hours from the farthest reaches of the EVE universe.
People seek oppourtunities to increase efficency in everything they do. Creating a market hub is no diffrent. Why honnestly, do you want to waste your time going to ten diffrent places to get your stuff? I personally would much rather buy it all in one place and for the cheepest price. I know it sure makes my life far easier. And as for lag, The time saved buying everything in one place far outweighs the immensely painful task of waisting an additional hour going to diffrent places to buy stuff.
The EVE market system is based on Free Capitalism, obviously there is a large demand for having a market hub because as even you stated it probably does house the majority of market transactions on any single day.
Also, as jita is the biggest market hub, how can you honnestly expect to match volumes in any other system? Its completely common to have the cheepest prices in the biggest market because there the competion is the most fierce. As volume of sales goes down prices tend to gradually rise as a result, and this is what you see in less popular market hubs, slightly decreased volumes but slightly increased profits. So by selling in a less populated market, you will make more but sell less. Mabye you SHOULD try this, unless you absolutely HAVE to sell your one month's supply in one or two days.
I have tried selling goods in Haatamo, Hek, Pator and even low sec. Sure I sell a few mods and some ammo but volumes are very low. Many people are simply too lazy to bother checking local regions they just head to Jita cos they know they can get it. I even priced some items 10% cheaper than Jita but it made no difference to sales. Thus I moved virtually all sales to Jita. I have the skills to have over 100 active orders and i used to have maybe 70 or 80 active in various regions but no more. I have 10-15 sell orders in Jita and maybe 5 in other regions.
Unless we are encoraged to buy/sell in other regions or systems Jita will simply become too full. Even now i dump the gear in Jita and get out soon as I can. I remote manage the orders from a nice quiet system some 10 jumps away and I don't get the market lag.
I can understand why people like Jita so much its so damn easy and Jita can and will still be used. All I am asking is that insentives in the form of tax breaks are given to those what would like to sell in areas with more risk.
In order to encorage trade in our town the Council gave such tax breaks to encorage more traders to come to town with reduced rents and local tax's. Parking charges where reduced, parking facilites improved and sure enough trade impoved over time. The "local" shopping mall some 15 miles away is still damn busy but people now have reasons for shopping a little more local. I would like the same to apply for Jita.
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Tyrenical
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.03 15:23:00 -
[26]
It will occour naturally when there is a market for it. Taxes, rent, and all those factors only affect it minimally. When there is demand in those systems, a market will develop.
_______________________________________________
Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2007.06.03 15:47:00 -
[27]
I personally buy & sell all my stuff in the 2nd tier hubs like Rens and Amarr. I really don't understand why other people can't do this as well. Nobody forces you to go to Jita. If you want the convenience of a high volume market, then you have to accept the downside of being in close proximity to a high volume of people. Jita is to EVE what New York is to the US, what Mexico City is to Mexico, what London is to the UK, what Tokyo is to Japan. Jita is a completely natural phenomenom. Moving people out of Jita makes about as much sense as moving people out of New York.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:01:00 -
[28]
while its a nice idea it doesnt really fit the eve player driven market model
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
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Dr Smuckers
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:08:00 -
[29]
Jita is a horrible place. It would be much better for the game if the player base was spread over more space for both server load and better gameplay.
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Gealbhan
Caldari
The SAS
The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:14:00 -
[30]
Wouldn't increasing the tax in 1.0 systems hurt new players trying to make a buck?
"Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium. |
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Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:20:00 -
[31]
I haven't been to Jita in over a month and even then I might spend 10 to 20 minutes max.
The fix is simple.
When people get tired of it all they will stay away from Jita.
But the funniest part about this whole thing is people are obviously still going there and complaining about the lag.
The fact of the matter is that every person that goes to Jita is part of the problem.
Including those who complain about it.
If they never enter Jita then what do they care, so obviously they go there.
So Jita is not broken and doesn't need fixed.
IF everyone would just stay out of Jita it would be a ghost town and lag free.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:43:00 -
[32]
tax based on population is the only way 
____ __ ________
_sig below_
the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 17:11:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Gealbhan
Wouldn't increasing the tax in 1.0 systems hurt new players trying to make a buck?
I don't think new players can compete with established corps/alliances until they get max production skills, Invention skill and freighters.
They can however make and sell the lower end items such as T1 frigs/ammo/mods that people tend to buy locally. I too am lazy and if I need a few thousand missile will tend to buy in station rather than sail to jita and save maybe 20-30k on the cost of ammo. Mission systems are the best for this, I simply don't have the factory slots available to take advantage of it.
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Voculus
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.06.03 17:11:00 -
[34]
Interfering with the player market will only harm Eve. Not even CCP has the luxury of being able to change human nature.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 17:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Gealbhan
Wouldn't increasing the tax in 1.0 systems hurt new players trying to make a buck?
The thing is that tax, being a percent as it is, only really starts to hurt when the quantities get large. For a new player buying some fittings for his first frigate, an extra 10% on the price is the difference between paying 20,000 isk and 22,000 isk- it's doubtful he'll even notice. The only people whom it'll make a big difference to are those buying very expensive specialist mods and those selling / buying in very large numbers. Nether of whom are very likely to be new, and both groups should be experienced enough to go else where (while noobs are probably just going to buy where they happen to be).
I still think incremental tax based on system traffic / market quantity is the best strategy for helping to disperse Jita and preventing it reoccurring- which has always been a stated aim of CCP, since Yulai.
The thing with Yulai is all they did to fix it was essentially move it's location out of the main travel paths, meaning a new hub was bound to crop up somewhere, wherever the circumstances were right. By dynamically balancing taxes (which are already in the game, so it's only utilising a tool that is already there) it should ensure that market hubs simply can't grow to the size that Jita has before it becomes too expensive.
As it stands, Empire space is several thousand systems or so, with 90% of the population in a handful of systems. Any system that encourages the spreading out of people (even if it only means that the "Jita hub" is spread over Jita and 5 of it's neighbours) is nothing but a good thing, if only for the sake of the servers.
And before anyone else says it, "I like being able to buy all my stuff in the same place" is not a good argument. I'd like a free titan, but it doesn't mean CCP should spawn one for me, does it? What is good for me is not neccessarily what's good for the game
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Tyrenical
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.03 18:06:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Patch86
And before anyone else says it, "I like being able to buy all my stuff in the same place" is not a good argument. I'd like a free titan, but it doesn't mean CCP should spawn one for me, does it? What is good for me is not neccessarily what's good for the game
Umm, Increased Efficency is a basic human instinct. Easy access to good and services is the backbone behind a civilization. Being given a new car is winning the lottery.
_______________________________________________
Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 18:46:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tyrenical
Originally by: Patch86
And before anyone else says it, "I like being able to buy all my stuff in the same place" is not a good argument. I'd like a free titan, but it doesn't mean CCP should spawn one for me, does it? What is good for me is not neccessarily what's good for the game
Umm, Increased Efficency is a basic human instinct. Easy access to good and services is the backbone behind a civilization. Being given a new car is winning the lottery.
Absolutely it is, you're 100% right. But just because we mere mortals are driven to increased efficiency, it doesn't mean it's whats best for the game. I want to be more efficient, AND I want a new titan.
In most circumstances, we have our desires and drives (in this case for increased efficiency) put up against obstacles and resisting forces. Since theres no major resisting force (unless you count lag) stopping us surrendering to our desire for increased efficiency and all bundling into Jita, we've all ended up in Jita. What we need is something to keep us in check.
So yes, you may be driven by the desire to have your shopping sprees made more efficient by it all being in Jita, but it still doesn't make it what's best for the game. No more than my free titan.
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Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2007.06.03 18:51:00 -
[38]
Instead of incremental taxes, what if they added incremental lag? For example, when lots of people are in a system, it gets laggy. This would cause people to disperse when the lag gets too high.
Oh snap. It's already in game.
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar
Universal Exports
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:04:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Jayson Lee on 03/06/2007 19:07:41
These are probably bad ideas but we'll see.
First ramp up tax rates for all empire systems. Start high, say like 20%. For systems such as Jita, the tax rate stays at 20%, but for other systems with a lower population the rate drops. This idea has already been suggested so its nothing new expect for the rate is universal and drops in less busy systems rather than increases in busier systems (i know, no real difference).
Have tarrifs. Have an increased tax based on race. If you are Minmatar and want to sell in Jita then you have to pay an extra 10% tax. This might help regional markets, or just lead to an increase in alts.
Have import taxes set on all items brought into Jita to sell. I dont if that is even possible to code but if it was, you could add a surcharge to any items thought were made somewhere else including rat/mission drops.
The last bad idea is limit the traffic that a station can handle. If you want to get in to Jita 4-4 then you have to wait in line. Just like any place with high traffic and limited resources, if you really want to go there you can put your name on the list and wait.
I know those ideas are bad, and I am guessing will recieve thier fair amount of flak, if they are even acknowledge.
I think the best thing to do is make certain stations prefered places to manufactor things, ie bonus on materials needed/time to build ect. Then make certain places the best place to sell items but limit the amount of orders one station can process.
***EDIT***
Let me clarify something. Just like in any high demand/traffic area space is at a premium. Limit the number of sell orders that any one person can place and the total number a station can handle at once. If you want to place sell orders in Jita then you have to pay a very high price in order to have your items listed.
When the demand for space goes down then the price will drop also. This should spread things out to cover at least several systems in and around Jita.
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Loyal Servant
Caldari
The Short Bus Squad
The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:07:00 -
[40]
Anyone ever stop to think that the problem with this is that the
system cannot handle it?
I think the software/hardware is broken, not Jita.
TSBS - Eve's Premier podding service!
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:10:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Patch86 on 03/06/2007 19:08:53
Originally by: Loyal Servant
Anyone ever stop to think that the problem with this is that the
system cannot handle it?
I think the software/hardware is broken, not Jita.
Yah, but its already pretty much at technological capacity. There isn't hardware alive that can handle 700+ players in a single instance like that without showing signs of struggling. So short of just waiting for IBM to develop some new server technology, other things need to be done.
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:24:00 -
[42]
I know this is going to sound CRAZY!!!!! but if you do not like the lag in Jita DO NOT GO TO JITA IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man these posts are really stupid, the whine is essentially CCP remove the other people from jita for me because I deserve to be in jita not them!!
I couldnt care less how bad Jita lags... you know why? I Don't GO THERE!@!!!!@@!@#$@#$!%!#$%!#$%!#$%!#%$!
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
I know this is going to sound CRAZY!!!!! but if you do not like the lag in Jita DO NOT GO TO JITA IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man these posts are really stupid, the whine is essentially CCP remove the other people from jita for me because I deserve to be in jita not them!!
I couldnt care less how bad Jita lags... you know why? I Don't GO THERE!@!!!!@@!@#$@#$!%!#$%!#$%!#$%!#%$!
I don't go there either (my character hasn't actually been to high sec once so far in 2007, and my alt is much ignored), so its merely abstract on my part. I see Jita as a big***** up that everyone complains about, and that could be fixed. And I know its something CCP want to fix, so I like to discuss it any time anyone makes a half decent suggestion.
Thats discussion boards for you- if you don't like to discuss Jita, why are you in a thread with the title "Time to Tax Jita"?
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Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:29:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
I know this is going to sound CRAZY!!!!! but if you do not like the lag in Jita DO NOT GO TO JITA IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man these posts are really stupid, the whine is essentially CCP remove the other people from jita for me because I deserve to be in jita not them!!
I couldnt care less how bad Jita lags... you know why? I Don't GO THERE!@!!!!@@!@#$@#$!%!#$%!#$%!#$%!#%$!
I agree. CCP could be spending time on fixing bugs, adding content, etc. Instead, you have these moths that keep on flying to the flame. No matter how many times you tell them that the fire will burn them, they keep on flying back and screaming "OMG fire is hot! OUCH! Increase taxes or something. Just please make the fire quit burning!"
Nobody is forcing you moths to fly to the flame (Jita). And if you continue, you deserve to get burned.
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parrowdox
Caldari
Autaris INC
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:03:00 -
[45]
Congestion charge any1? charge a certain price (nothing too big like 500k) n voila u can enter but u will be charged more if u r there longer than an hour lets say to reduce idle numbers but stil lallow for mass trading hubb
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:14:00 -
[46]
The market dosn't need kicking again. Each time it's kicked, the people who would be best involved in spreading it quit, and the game design itself heavily encourages hubs. There needs to be a positive reinforcement of spreading the market (frex, more manufacturing slots in areas away from the core), and the removal of the major barriers on doing so (frex, sell order limits) rather than another kick in the market's teeth.
You could even considering restoring escrow, because a lot of things formerly sold on escrow are now being sold on the market, in Jita, instead since it's plain not feasable from the time, profit and visibility viewpoints to use the contracts system to do so.
And put a "bypass high volune systems" option into the autopilot.
But don't kick the market in the teeth again, because trade volume will dip sharply and prices rise..and a little of the market might go to the other existing hubs, but the factors which act to prohibit the market's spread will deadstop anything else!
//Maya |
Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:25:00 -
[47]
Quote:
I don't go there either (my character hasn't actually been to high sec once so far in 2007, and my alt is much ignored), so its merely abstract on my part. I see Jita as a big***** up that everyone complains about, and that could be fixed. And I know its something CCP want to fix, so I like to discuss it any time anyone makes a half decent suggestion.
Thats discussion boards for you- if you don't like to discuss Jita, why are you in a thread with the title "Time to Tax Jita"?
I never said I don;t like to discuss it. I simply said if YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH JITA DON'T GO THERE! I think it has been the best suggestion in the thread so far. We don't need silly things like tax. some people actually enjoy massive crowds and if that is the case they will hang out in Jita and have to deal with the lag etc.. if you don;t like it don't go
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:28:00 -
[48]
several problems...
1) Technical: coding - you do KNOW the market database is HUGE right? with LARGE amounts of volumes in different stations in different systems in different regions..
I hate to be the dev who code in the self-adjusting tax rate for the whole universe...
imagine the lag each time the tax updates when goods change hands....
This could be bypassed if the tax is updated at DT.. but still, tons of coding, tons of calucation (each item type for each station for each region.)
and most likely cause tons of lag due to having to calculate different tax rates for different stations...
but yeah, even the simplified verison would muck with the database quite a bit...
feel sorry for the dev who is told to code this.
2) people like to get everything in one place. unless all traders who carries many kinds of goods is willingly move their operation and updates/move everytime the tax makes selling it not profitable...
people will still pay higher prices in Jita/hubs...
hate to be the trader who spend hours calculating profit margins (which are already paper thin in T1 ships and modules) with an adjusting tax rate.
I can see alot of traders/manufacturers say "screw this"..
3) the Lag problem will only go away with better hardware and code optimization... any attempt to change human behaviour on a "grand" scale will be like trying to herd a bunch of cats down the street.
if you want Jita to be lag free, tell CCP to give it another node =P
but the tax thing just isnt practical... good idea though, if theres only 1 station per system and maybe 10 different items on the market at max...
-Siggi-
""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:50:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Petrothian Tong
several problems...
1) Technical: coding - you do KNOW the market database is HUGE right? with LARGE amounts of volumes in different stations in different systems in different regions..
I hate to be the dev who code in the self-adjusting tax rate for the whole universe...
imagine the lag each time the tax updates when goods change hands....
This could be bypassed if the tax is updated at DT.. but still, tons of coding, tons of calucation (each item type for each station for each region.)
and most likely cause tons of lag due to having to calculate different tax rates for different stations...
but yeah, even the simplified verison would muck with the database quite a bit...
feel sorry for the dev who is told to code this.
2) people like to get everything in one place. unless all traders who carries many kinds of goods is willingly move their operation and updates/move everytime the tax makes selling it not profitable...
people will still pay higher prices in Jita/hubs...
hate to be the trader who spend hours calculating profit margins (which are already paper thin in T1 ships and modules) with an adjusting tax rate.
I can see alot of traders/manufacturers say "screw this"..
3) the Lag problem will only go away with better hardware and code optimization... any attempt to change human behaviour on a "grand" scale will be like trying to herd a bunch of cats down the street.
if you want Jita to be lag free, tell CCP to give it another node =P
but the tax thing just isnt practical... good idea though, if theres only 1 station per system and maybe 10 different items on the market at max...
Thankfull I am not a database programmer but I feel sure that the coding could be done. They do it for station rents and various other calculations. Whilst the market tables would be large I feel sure the devs could manage. How often tax's are updated would be up to them.
People can still use Jita and trade hubs they would simply pay more. Whislt this maybe fine for the low end stuff someone buying/selling 1bil of trit or POS fuel may decide to sell the gear near nearer to the actual POS's or even at the stations they mine the damn stuff.
Sure lag will go away with better hardware but this takes a long time to implement. The issue however is not just about lag in Jita. Its about Risk/Reward and currently selling goods in Jita carries little risk.
Maybe some traders will say "screw this" and move on to other things but I bet most will adapt and even take advantage of it.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:56:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/06/2007 23:58:08
No, a good proportion of the people currently selling that 1 bil of fuel won't anymore, and most of the rest won't sell it on the market. A little will be left over, marked up far more than the tax increase. It's been seen before, stop kicking what's left..the market's sick enough as it is without more stick. Carrot
There is no way to "take advantage" of your profit margins being destroyed by tax in any of the places where anything sells. Even 5% more tax will mean most T1 items are not worth selling, ffs... (And no, tax dosn't NEED to be done that way, but it's how CCP have done it despite protests...)
//Maya |
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MehTheTrader
University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:58:00 -
[51]
reason I go to jita is so I can fit my entire ship in one station, has nothing to do with the prices tbh.
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Futuris
Minmatar
Nano Ltd
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:16:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Futuris on 04/06/2007 00:15:58
Why would anyone want this change and what would it fix at all? I just don't see a point except that it nerfs the player economy and introduces an isk sink.
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:17:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/06/2007 23:58:08
.....
There is no way to "take advantage" of your profit margins being destroyed by tax in any of the places where anything sells. Even 5% more tax will mean most T1 items are not worth selling, ffs... (And no, tax dosn't NEED to be done that way, but it's how CCP have done it despite protests...)
There is a way to take advantage of the proffit margins being affected by higher tax. Sell it in low tax systems or increase the price in high tax systems.
People wont bat an eye lid paying an extra 10k or 20k for ammo or a mod or even paying an extra million or 2 for the good stuff, if they need it ASAP.
Many however could box clever and move stuff to regions of conflict and/or demand. POS fuel in Jita has to be bought in and then shipped out to lower sec systems. Why not sell the stuff where the demand is?
Buy orders could be better used by both traders and customers to encorage people to deliver the goods at a fair price and for lower sales/purchase tax.
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: MehTheTrader
reason I go to jita is so I can fit my entire ship in one station, has nothing to do with the prices tbh.
I do as well and would be willing to pay a premium for the convience.
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Tyrenical
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:20:00 -
[55]
The market in jita developed naturally. 4 years ago jita was not a market hub. Does that not tell you SOMETHING?
_______________________________________________
Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:21:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/06/2007 23:58:08
No, a good proportion of the people currently selling that 1 bil of fuel won't anymore, and most of the rest won't sell it on the market. A little will be left over, marked up far more than the tax increase. It's been seen before, stop kicking what's left..the market's sick enough as it is without more stick. Carrot
There is no way to "take advantage" of your profit margins being destroyed by tax in any of the places where anything sells. Even 5% more tax will mean most T1 items are not worth selling, ffs... (And no, tax dosn't NEED to be done that way, but it's how CCP have done it despite protests...)
Well, the way to deal with your profit margins being eaten into by tax would be to sell it in another system without the tax. Thats kind of the point of the OP, I think
On the whole though, I do agree that carrots are better than sticks at things like this. But I haven't seen any good carrot suggestions worth backing- you increase production slots in some backwater region, people will just haul it to Jita when its done (all of 20 minutes work, with WTZ). I hated Escrow with a passion, so I don't see why that should be brought back (if they could just make the contract system easier to browse multi region, that would be nice). The autopilot detour thing is quite a smart step, but I doubt it'll help much in the long run, other than meaning less unwilling souls will be subjected to the shrivelled up Jita node.
And I really don't buy in to the fact that there will be "less trade" if theres a tax. If I need a Battleship fitted with rail guns and drones and armour and webbers and so forth, I need to buy all those things. There being a tax won't stop anyone buying anything they were going to buy before, even if it means that Jita ISN'T 10% cheaper than the rest of the galaxy any more. It might just mean that sellers won't be able to sell so many times cheaper in Jita than anywhere else, forcing them to put their prices up. So, people will be encouraged to shop around the other 1000 star systems a bit more. Tragic.
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:24:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Futuris
Edited by: Futuris on 04/06/2007 00:15:58
Why would anyone want this change and what would it fix at all? I just don't see a point except that it nerfs the player economy and introduces an isk sink.
It would add an element of risk/reward to the trader profession.
It would encorage traders to sell in other systems and regions as well as lower sec areas.
It would encorage the big buyers to place their buy orders outside higher sec system to reduce their sales tax thus encoraging traders to deliver the goods for an increase in profits due to lower sales tax.
It would reduce lag in Jita and other systems.
It would add an ISK sink to the game.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:31:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/06/2007 00:32:11
KingKenny, that risk allready exists. From other players. And it'd "encourage" traders to quit the game because they've been nerfed in a fundermental way again - they can't guatanree any level of profit from anything, or even there will BE profit, when they've allready taken the risks. "Big buyers" will be encouraged not to use the market all at, is all. ISK sinks on their own are NOT GOOD. Unless there is an active need for them, that just means a corresponding ISK faucet needs to be upped. And the inflation in Eve is via CCP's deliverate choices, nothing else.
Patch86, the thing is - escrow worked. Contracts don't. They're 1000% harder to use and browse.
"And I really don't buy in to the fact that there will be "less trade" if theres a tax."
Every single nerf to trade, however minor, has caused a major drop in the volume of market trading. A massive nerf like this? Come on. And Jita isn't cheaper than elsewhere NOW for most items, ffs.
"Well, the way to deal with your profit margins being eaten into by tax would be to sell it in another system without the tax."
Okay, and then other people move there, and suddenly you're losing 5% on each item sold because the tax rate got cranked on you. Sigh. No, the answer is people will retreat from using the market, and given the uselesness of the contracts system, that means direct selling - usually to alliances, completely cutting out the average buyer.
//Maya |
Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:50:00 -
[59]
Patch86,
There WILL be hubs. This is pretty simple group dynamics. But at the very least, there should be one hub per visibility group (region). And yes, people will quit if you make it too annoying to get all the items they want together - Jita's about the only place for that, and the current game mechanics mean that can't change very easily!
"Jita's prices have always been historically far cheaper."
I disagree with what you said. PS, Hammerhead II's price is (or was until recently) artifically high anyway.
//Maya |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.04 01:05:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Patch86,
There WILL be hubs. This is pretty simple group dynamics. But at the very least, there should be one hub per visibility group (region). And yes, people will quit if you make it too annoying to get all the items they want together - Jita's about the only place for that, and the current game mechanics mean that can't change very easily!
"Jita's prices have always been historically far cheaper."
I disagree with what you said. PS, Hammerhead II's price is (or was until recently) artifically high anyway.
Its fair enough, if thats your view. If you're of the opinion that, if denied a hub to shop in, people will simply quit the game, then I can understand your objections. I just don't agree on that conclusion.
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Futuris
Minmatar
Nano Ltd
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Posted - 2007.06.04 01:08:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
There WILL be hubs. This is pretty simple group dynamics. But at the very least, there should be one hub per visibility group (region). And yes, people will quit if you make it too annoying to get all the items they want together - Jita's about the only place for that, and the current game mechanics mean that can't change very easily!
Dead on. Someone who lives in a low-populated area such as lowsec or 0.0 and only comes to Empire to shop, does NOT want to fly all over 10 different regions to sell his loot/minerals and buy POS fuel and new mods.
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 02:18:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Futuris
Originally by: Maya Rkell
There WILL be hubs. This is pretty simple group dynamics. But at the very least, there should be one hub per visibility group (region). And yes, people will quit if you make it too annoying to get all the items they want together - Jita's about the only place for that, and the current game mechanics mean that can't change very easily!
Dead on. Someone who lives in a low-populated area such as lowsec or 0.0 and only comes to Empire to shop, does NOT want to fly all over 10 different regions to sell his loot/minerals and buy POS fuel and new mods.
Well if the market system made it more profitable to have the gear you need closer to you then would that not be an improvement?
Sure you could still go to jita if you wanted, but imagine being able to shop for what you want in a system near you?
As a trader why should I risk going to lowsec? The reason you go to Jita is simply because there has never been reasons for traders like me to sell stuff in other locations.
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redcurse
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Posted - 2007.06.04 02:49:00 -
[63]
I like jita IV-4 station, which have all the stuffs that I wanted.
Warping to many regions is too bad just for assembling a ship.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.06.04 02:51:00 -
[64]
Before we take this topic any further:
Kenny, do you even fly a Freighter, and understand just how unfeasible it is to do 10-12 jumps just for the shopping portion of your hi-sec run?
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Mirt T
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Posted - 2007.06.04 03:28:00 -
[65]
going to jita may be a pain but going to 20 places to pick up what i need would be worse. with jita i have a short pain with 20 places would last all day. if interbus ever gets there devilry system set up will be much nicer.
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BoBoZoBo
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.04 04:51:00 -
[66]
I am 100% up to taxing markets according to volume.
I think the exact terms need to be hashed out, like area or measure (system/region/etc.), and method of taxt rate, but its a good direction.
It may help spread out markets to surrounding areas. I think there always will be a concentration at some point.. but this may leverage out the threshold a bit as well as make other markets more attractive.
=========================
Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9 |
Devious Syn
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Posted - 2007.06.04 04:58:00 -
[67]
I dont understand why they dont have highways from jita to amarr to our to (whatever other system they want to become a hub) all of the sudden the folks in jita have only to go 1 hop if jita is to loaded to buy and sell stuff.
I think most people WANT to move out from jita but they know if they do their goods wont sell as rapidly. Highway's between a few "major" hubs would fix this.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.04 05:39:00 -
[68]
Edited by: James Duar on 04/06/2007 05:37:54
Originally by: KingKenny
HAW HAW HAW MORAL SUPERIORITY.
The problem is you're an idiot and today I feel like being an ass.
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Johnathan Roark
Caldari
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.06.04 06:30:00 -
[69]
As I read through this thread, I can not help to wonder, how many of those saying Jita needs fixed find themselves in Jita on a regular basis? I avoid Jita except for the few things that are hard to find at a good price. Jita does not need fixing unless its impacting server performance. Let it remain the market hub. If anything, remove everything else. Every time i hear people talk about fixing Jita, i think back to a busy system called Yulai. It was the the center of the eveveres until it was "fix" but its name was really just changed to Jita.
Corporation Management Improvement |
Miz Cenuij
OctoberSnow Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.04 07:37:00 -
[70]
great idea. signed.
"Men are going to die..
and im going to kill them". |
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Redbad
Minmatar
Tempered Steel Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.04 08:36:00 -
[71]
Hmm, there are many corporations in EvE which have a very nicewebsite on which you can order stuff and it will be delivered on your doorstep.
why fly all the way to Jita when it can get delivered?
RB
join us today! |
freddy bloggs
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Posted - 2007.06.04 08:39:00 -
[72]
unfortunetly all this would do is move the hub to another system for just the reasons you state make it profitable.
What can be done is a remote delivery skill which makes items appear so meny jumps from and to jita dependent on skill.
This would then make most pilots have no need to go to jita
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Sales Merchant
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Posted - 2007.06.04 08:41:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Sales Merchant on 04/06/2007 08:41:15
I avoid Jita like the plague, undock from station navy 4 and you risk two things happening:
1. Being ganked by opportunists outside the station who want the items you just purchased.
2. Getting stuck in a bundle of ships and then being ganked by opportunists outside the station who want the items you just purchased.
In the rare occasion you get away, it usually means they were busy scanning someone elses ship. I rather pay a couple million more for an item in surrounding systems than go to the lag and gankfest that is Jita.
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Ares Lightfeather
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.04 09:09:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 04/06/2007 09:08:05
Actually I think this idea is not gonna work... the best idea in my opinion would be the exact opposite of what is suggested here.
First, the self increasing tax doesn't make sense. The guy handling the system would actually lower taxes to bring more people in, if they had any commercial sense.
Second, the fact that jita is the main place where prices are down also come from the fact that it's impossible to check prices in another region... as a result, people go to the same region to buy / sell.
What I would propose isn't to "nerf" jita, it's just a waste of time... because in addition to the argument stated above, people would just create another one in the next system, therefore "jita" bis still exists. I would propose to boost other systems. The problem is, why go to this station rather than another ? the tax is the exact same.
How ? research stations exists, manufacturing stations exists, but trade stations don't. Creating them is, for me, the solution.
Their effect would be to reduce the tax on a sale, depending on the type of station (some station reduce the tax on ships, others on shields, other on ammo, other on materials), depending on the standing with the corp owning the station. Therefore, CCP could create a number of trade hubs per regions. 2 benefits are to be expected : spreading of trade over region (less lag), and creation of viable secondary hubs (these stations would concentrate the trade in isolated regions, therefore creating secondary hubs).
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Plague Black
4S Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.04 09:31:00 -
[75]
So you propose to punish players for dev screwup? Do you work for some goverment maybe?
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 11:18:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Amarria Black
Before we take this topic any further:
Kenny, do you even fly a Freighter, and understand just how unfeasible it is to do 10-12 jumps just for the shopping portion of your hi-sec run?
I love my freighter very much thanks and it does make moving the high volumes so much easier. Freighters may even be part of the problem.
I see sell orders for huge amounts of POS fuel, minerals and ships. The only way the items could have got their is using freighters. It would appear the stuff is mined and/or manfuctured in other systems and regions many many jumps away and freighted in to jita only for much of it to be freighed out again.
Would it not make more sense for the very same stuff to be sold at or near source?
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 11:31:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Plague Black
So you propose to punish players for dev screwup? Do you work for some goverment maybe?
I don't think the devs decided that Jita was going to be a hub system for 90% of trade, it sort of evolved over time.
With all other aspects of eve there is a huge element of risk / reeward and also supply/demand. If every decided to make their gear in Jita then there is a finite limit of factory slots. When they get full thats it. Players either join a queue for the next slot or move to another system/region and build there.
Same applies to mining, only so many roids available before they get popped, even piracy is affected by supply demand. To many pirates in a system for too few targets and some pirates move along.
With trade however Jita appears to have unlimted sell/buy slots and unlimted demand. Whilst it does make for an easy life, mine included, it does not encourage an expansive trade system which I think the game needs.
Why is trade in 0.4 and below so poor? The buyer and seller pay the same tax's as Jita. Now whilst ammo and some stuff does sell in 0.4 quite well the better stuff is simply too risky to move when Jita is available for the same profit margin and is a damn site safer.
Games evolve and Eve has evolved but the devs are always looking to add balance to the game via a nerf or a boost. I think Jita will always exist and people will always use it for the ease of fitting out a ship but maybe they should pay a small premium for doing so.
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Xarloz
No Fear Buccaneers
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Posted - 2007.06.04 11:37:00 -
[78]
So nobody has spotted the in-development note for providing Interbus shipping services?
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.06.04 11:45:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Marquis Dean
How can so many people miss the entire point of Eve so completely.
Someone have a little think about why we all hate WoW so much. Because there are alot of binding rules on what we can or cannot do, and we love Eve because it's a sandbox and we have near-unlimited freedom. The moment CCP start introducing 'special measures' to the game to try to force people to do things, Eve will lose some of it's freedom.
You mean like titans?
Cos we all know blobs arent fun.
Right guys.
200 ships shooting at each other, the fun, the thrill of the kill, the excitement...
Yeah. Blobs suck alright, its a much better idea for 1 guy to be able to blast hundreds of others out of the sky in seconds...
Well done CCP.
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 12:01:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Xarloz
So nobody has spotted the in-development note for providing Interbus shipping services?
I think i first spotted that maybe 2 or more years ago. I don't think I have seen it as part of Rev 2. Maybe next year.
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari
Bladerunners
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.06.04 13:57:00 -
[81]
How about a limit on the number of buy/sell orders and contracts allowed in any one station? Yes, it is messing with the game mechanics, but it doesn't directly affect the market cost - it just restricts how much can be put on sale which would force people to sell stuff elsewhere...
Thoughts/comments ?
Having said that a proper solution would really be to make other systems more active to trade in and I can't see any other way to do this other than buy increasing the number of stargates in them to make them hubs too.
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Gee Lok
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Posted - 2007.06.04 14:10:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Amarria Black
Well... it would be an enormous isk-sink.
QFT
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.04 14:11:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Cletus Graeme
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 04/06/2007 14:05:01
How about a limit on the number of buy/sell orders and contracts allowed in any one station? Yes, it is messing with the game mechanics, but it doesn't directly affect the market cost - it just restricts how much can be put on sale which would force people to sell stuff elsewhere...
Thoughts/comments ?
Having said that a proper solution would really be to make other systems more attractive to trade in and I can't see any other way to do that other than by increasing the number of stargates to them to make them hubs also.
I'd prefer a system that gives you incentives to do / not to do certain things but will still let you anyway over a system that simply locks you out of doing something. All a numerical cap would do is mean that 10% of the traders will mass spam all the orders there with nonsense orderse, and replace them with real orders as and when they need them. Exactly the same thing as happened to manufacturing / lab slots in the old system.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.06.04 15:00:00 -
[84]
Jita is a wierd market. It often has the lowest price available because of all the competition. But just as often it has the "jita price" which can be substantially higher than say an offer 6 to 8 jumps away.
I think people are willing to pay the higher "jita price" on some things simply because of the convienience factor. And I have no idea why some things are cheap in jita and others are definately not. Who knows.
Anyway, I think the OP is close to the sort of solution needed. For any topic that revolves around high lag due to too many players in one place, the game needs dynamic factors that adjust automatically based on population in that place. A toll booth at the jita gates, docking fees, CONCORD policeman's ball tickets, whatever. Some fake isk sink that discourages players from crowding up systems.
Take motsu for example. If they would implement something like a 30% decrease in LP's awarded for every 100 players in the system, people would probably finally get motivated enough to bug off and find another agent.
Anyway, whatever the solution it shouldn't be directed at any one specific system. It should be a dynamically adjusting factor applied to all of eve's systems that would inherently be seen most clearly in the systems most needing attention.
Such a system would let people pay a premium for the jita convienience, and let shrewd shoppers / sellers self-adjust.
Btw, what happened to the InterBus delivery thing that Oveur talked about a few months back?
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Say What? |
Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.06.04 15:22:00 -
[85]
I think the answer has already been stated: With Factional Warfare, only those with proper standings will be able to use Jita. Therefore another 3 market hubs will be opened, and this will relieve the stress on Jita.
While the OP has good intentions, I don't think taxes will solve the problem of overcrowding. Honestly if it gets too high, then the taxes will just be added to the cost of the goods.
I look at this future development as a good thing. Empire will be polarized between 4 factions and those 'neutral' players will be the only ones capable of moving between factions.
What I'm interested to know is how Concord will fit into this. For example, if I decide to enter a Calderi system and they start shooting me, can I shoot back?
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KingKenny
Minmatar
Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 16:39:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Princess Jodi
I think the answer has already been stated: With Factional Warfare, only those with proper standings will be able to use Jita. Therefore another 3 market hubs will be opened, and this will relieve the stress on Jita.
While the OP has good intentions, I don't think taxes will solve the problem of overcrowding. Honestly if it gets too high, then the taxes will just be added to the cost of the goods.
I look at this future development as a good thing. Empire will be polarized between 4 factions and those 'neutral' players will be the only ones capable of moving between factions.
What I'm interested to know is how Concord will fit into this. For example, if I decide to enter a Calderi system and they start shooting me, can I shoot back?
Factional Warfare could indeed be part of the solution but as a trader war is good for business so it would be in my interests to remain neutral. (I am assuming that factional warfare is optional).
If, as you say, those aligned to one race of another can not enter various regions then that could help other hubs become more developed. I fear however that many will simply build a neutral alt to get their gear, just as many of the -10 pirates do.
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