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Petition against ISK for Gametime

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Faye Valerii Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.06.04 13:31:00 - [1] Hi everyone, Below you will find a post by CCP explaining how they plan to allow players to buy gametime with ISK. As a working, contributing member to society I would like to express my complete and utter opposition against such a move. The reason is very simple : I DO NOT WISH to subsidize loafers and other social parasites. Because WE, the PAYING customers, will be subsidizing the gametime of these non-lifers with our hard-earned subscription money. Now you won't only lose your ship to those 23h/day gatecampers, you'll be PAYING them with RL money for the privilege! ISK-farmers will also be able to farm for 0 cost ... Quite frankly I have no idea at all why CCP would kill the GTC trade, which benefits all parties involved equally. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The recent MotD mentioning the sale or purchase of ISK for real money generated some questions about how Game Time can be traded for ISK, Game Time that was purchased with real world cash. In some of my replies, I was unclear. This wasn't by intention, but because of the information I am authorized to release at this time. In the future, CCP will introduce a billing solution replacing the current system that allows the purchase of game time from third parties for in-game ISK. In essence, it will be possible for a time and ISK-rich, but financially challenged player to purchase game time directly from CCP. Game Time codes will still be available for purchase, but the trade of game time codes for ISK will no longer be an approved payment option. We still have a number of details to work out, as well as implementation and integration, but that will hopefully clear up some of the confusion created earlier. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang Look Ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait...
DaOpa Amarr Static Corp	Posted - 2007.06.04 13:39:00 - [2] Interesting Post Static Corp Website
Brisi Veto.	Posted - 2007.06.04 13:40:00 - [3] How that is going to result in anything other than lost revenue for CCP is beyond me. Current system: Player A buys timecode for rl money, and sells it to Player B for Isk. CCP gets paid and players get what they want. New system: Player B buys timecode for isk directly from CCP. There is no rl money involved, ergo CCP loses income. This makes no sense from a business viewpoint. None whatsoever. Resistance is Fertile.
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2007.06.04 13:47:00 - [4] Edited by: ToxicFire on 04/06/2007 13:48:22 discussed in many other posts alot. The current system is worse as it devalues isk as you can simply buy it if your a rich *****, theres also nothing in that post to suggest that other players will be subsidizing those buying game time for isk eve doesn't really have the room to increase its existing subscription fee's. What is more likely to happen is that the cost of isk for a period of time will go up 900mil for a 90 day card etc which will mean the loafers will have to work harder to obtain the isk to remain in the game, quit or start paying cash which actually benefits ccp in alot of ways, loafers quitting reduces demand on server resources, increasing cost of isk means farmers selling isk have to increase their sales prices making it less like for people to buy isk, it also makes it harder for them to support their own accounts without taking a larger portion of isk from their turn over to pay for their accounts. Also is it just me or does the op seem to be under the impression there isn't currently GTC for isk trading going on? Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.04 13:53:00 - [5] The ISK/GTC trading should have never been introduced. It allows players to use their real life cash to achieve an advantage in the game - which negates all the effort I have spent progressing my character and my game experience. Originally by: "Faye Valerii" Below you will find a post by CCP explaining how they plan to allow players to buy gametime with ISK. .. so what do you think this current GTC system is doing? YES CCP should prevent ALL game time <==> ISK trading. This won't happen, but they should do it, since it's ruining the game, much moreso than eBay was before this thing was "legalised". NO CCP are NOT wrong to re-think the current GTC system. The way it works atm is a total shambles and is having a negative effect on the game. It seems CCP are trying to find a more balanced solution. I applaude and appreciate this. ~Dobbs --------- <Talon`dor\|Work> Arma - yeah but we call BNC dirty boosterhoes
Skakkee	Posted - 2007.06.04 13:55:00 - [6] They could just sell the isk back to the players for rl money
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.06.04 13:57:00 - [7] Ironic, since one of your directors used to buy/sell GTC's?
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.04 13:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Skakkee They could just sell the isk back to the players for rl money Thus turning EVE into "second life" and losing most of the players. --------- <Talon`dor\|Work> Arma - yeah but we call BNC dirty boosterhoes
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:00:00 - [9] Originally by: bloomich Ironic, since one of your directors used to buy/sell GTC's? If you're talking to me, I'm aware that many people in BoB rely on the GTC system. Unlike a lot of weak minded individuals, my opinion is not based on which ingame faction I am allieged to. Those in BoB who participate in the GTC system are just as guilty as the thousands of other players who do it. My opinion remains the same. --------- <Talon`dor\|Work> Arma - yeah but we call BNC dirty boosterhoes
Faye Valerii Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:01:00 - [10] Ofcourse I know about the current trading, duh ... With the current system, I, as a player who isn't selling GTC's, AM NOT subsidizing the playtime of other people. So it just doesn't concern me at all. And if someone wants to spend their own RL money to sell GTC's, I have no problem with that either. You're turning social success into success ingame, which is a hell of a lot better than turning social failure into free playtime : ) No offense meant to students, handicapped, and other people who justifiably possess lots of disposable time.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Robert Dobbs The ISK/GTC trading should have never been introduced. It allows players to use their real life cash to achieve an advantage in the game - which negates all the effort I have spent progressing my character and my game experience. do you work? if you do work, do you work full time? do you have children or pets to look after? do you prepare meals for your family, or do the housework? all these things are going to take a huge bite out of your eve time. The entire training system is based around not having to farm EXP in order to progress, so playtime is not an issue. Basically what you're saying is that you don't think people who don't have much time shouldn't be allowed to play the game, since if they can't afford ships they can't earn isk, insure ships, pvp, or muster enough cash to learn the high end skills you spent so much, uuh, effort developing. and who's to say that they are belittling your achivements? i'm sure you have access to a large selection of T2 bling - why would somebody spending seven quid to get a battleship be ****ing on your bonfire?
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:08:00 - [12] Originally by: Faye Valerii With the current system, I, as a player who isn't selling GTC's, AM NOT subsidizing the playtime of other people. Someone pays for those GTC's you buy, with ISK. And just because that person has more money than sense, he has obtained an advantage in the game, billions of ISK, perhaps even bought a character. Naturally these are the sort of people who fly a carrier fitted with basic miners and get ganked in belts, so what goes around comes around - but it is still very wrong. --------- <Talon`dor\|Work> Arma - yeah but we call BNC dirty boosterhoes
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Robert Dobbs Originally by: bloomich Ironic, since one of your directors used to buy/sell GTC's? If you're talking to me, I'm aware that many people in BoB rely on the GTC system. Unlike a lot of weak minded individuals, my opinion is not based on which ingame faction I am allieged to. Those in BoB who participate in the GTC system are just as guilty as the thousands of other players who do it. My opinion remains the same. No not to you, to the OP. Sorry I was not clearer, but then again, I am a GTC funded alt so you can ignore me
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:11:00 - [14] Originally by: ry ry why would somebody spending seven quid to get a battleship be ****ing on your bonfire? Because this is a game. A competitive environment. What you are suggesting is cheating. (And yes, I realise that some of the weaker minded people think all of BoB are cheaters, fair enough but this is not the thread for that.) --------- <Talon`dor\|Work> Arma - yeah but we call BNC dirty boosterhoes
Faye Valerii Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:12:00 - [15] Honestly I can't believe that CCP would be so ... stupid from a business perspective. Not only are they losing the GTC trade income, they'll be encouraging those 'financially challenged' people to farm even more ISK than they do now. It's also almost criminal from a social perspective. Like giving extra ****** to an addict. I mean, 15 euro's a month? Most people make more than that for one hour of work. If you can't afford 15 a month, you have some very serious problems and shouldn't be encouraged to waste your time in an online game. You should be out there looking for a job, getting educated, or volunteering for human drug trials.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:14:00 - [16] Edited by: ry ry on 04/06/2007 14:13:38 Originally by: Robert Dobbs Because this is a game. A competitive environment. What you are suggesting is cheating. making isk is easy. really, really easy. its just time consuming - there's simply no talent involved in rolling through belts in a BS making a million isk every couple of minutes. since there's no skill involved, why punish people who lack time? Originally by: Robert Dobbs (And yes, I realise that some of the weaker minded people think all of BoB are cheaters, fair enough but this is not the thread for that.) did i mention that alliance?
Faye Valerii Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:15:00 - [17] Like I said, people selling GTC's doesn't affect me directly. I'm not paying RL money that can be siphoned off to subsidize a bunch of addicts. Also, see Robert Dobbs' answer. I feel the same way (not that I would be implying that those who feel otherwise are weak-minded. I respect both those for and against the current GTC trade, because both stances can be justified rationally) Originally by: bloomich Originally by: Robert Dobbs Originally by: bloomich Ironic, since one of your directors used to buy/sell GTC's? If you're talking to me, I'm aware that many people in BoB rely on the GTC system. Unlike a lot of weak minded individuals, my opinion is not based on which ingame faction I am allieged to. Those in BoB who participate in the GTC system are just as guilty as the thousands of other players who do it. My opinion remains the same. No not to you, to the OP. Sorry I was not clearer, but then again, I am a GTC funded alt so you can ignore me
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Faye Valerii Honestly I can't believe that CCP would be so ... stupid from a business perspective. Not only are they losing the GTC trade income, they'll be encouraging those 'financially challenged' people to farm even more ISK than they do now. It's also almost criminal from a social perspective. Like giving extra ****** to an addict. I mean, 15 euro's a month? Most people make more than that for one hour of work. If you can't afford 15 a month, you have some very serious problems and shouldn't be encouraged to waste your time in an online game. You should be out there looking for a job, getting educated, or volunteering for human drug trials. The argument aside, you seem to have deduced a lot from a CCP announcement which doesn't actually give any details at all! From where do you think that the new system will force all players to subsidise ISK/GTC payments? And why do you think "they'll be encouraging those 'financially challenged' people to farm even more ISK than they do now." Perhaps i've missed a WHOLE lot here but that CCP post just said .. "We're thinking about stuff" --------- <Talon`dor\|Work> Arma - yeah but we call BNC dirty boosterhoes
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:19:00 - [19] Originally by: ry ry Originally by: Robert Dobbs (And yes, I realise that some of the weaker minded people think all of BoB are cheaters, fair enough but this is not the thread for that.) did i mention that alliance? My apologies, that wasn't directed at you, it was more directed at the swarm of goon alts that hound my posts .. sorry if I offended you. --------- <Talon`dor\|Work> Arma - yeah but we call BNC dirty boosterhoes
Faye Valerii Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:23:00 - [20] Originally by: Robert Dobbs Originally by: Faye Valerii Honestly I can't believe that CCP would be so ... stupid from a business perspective. Not only are they losing the GTC trade income, they'll be encouraging those 'financially challenged' people to farm even more ISK than they do now. It's also almost criminal from a social perspective. Like giving extra ****** to an addict. I mean, 15 euro's a month? Most people make more than that for one hour of work. If you can't afford 15 a month, you have some very serious problems and shouldn't be encouraged to waste your time in an online game. You should be out there looking for a job, getting educated, or volunteering for human drug trials. The argument aside, you seem to have deduced a lot from a CCP announcement which doesn't actually give any details at all! From where do you think that the new system will force all players to subsidise ISK/GTC payments? And why do you think "they'll be encouraging those 'financially challenged' people to farm even more ISK than they do now." Perhaps i've missed a WHOLE lot here but that CCP post just said .. "We're thinking about stuff" Because that's what Kieron says ... literally : In the future, CCP will introduce a billing solution replacing the current system that allows the purchase of game time from third parties for in-game ISK. In essence, it will be possible for a time and ISK-rich, but financially challenged player to purchase game time directly from CCP. Game Time codes will still be available for purchase, but the trade of game time codes for ISK will no longer be an approved payment option. The subsidies are pretty logical : I pay a monthly fee in RL money. This is to cover my cost, as a player. When I play, I use up cpu cycles, database elements etc ... I cost money. This is why there is a subscription fee in the first place. And the more players, the more CCP must invest in datacenter hardware, which is expensive as hell. When you're allowing players to play for no RL money at all, you're in effect taking RL money from your REAL subscriber pool and using it to cover the extra cost of hosting for the parasites. Those parasites, through their enormous playing times, are also a burden on your average normal player. They are camping the gates 23/7, hogging up all the good mining spots, whatever ... Making life less enjoyable for the RL paying customer. Though I'll admit some people might take offense to this last statement. I respect that. This money could be used for other, better things, like more money for developping EVE etc ...
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:26:00 - [21] Edited by: ry ry on 04/06/2007 14:24:59 Originally by: Robert Dobbs Originally by: ry ry Originally by: Robert Dobbs (And yes, I realise that some of the weaker minded people think all of BoB are cheaters, fair enough but this is not the thread for that.) did i mention that alliance? My apologies, that wasn't directed at you, it was more directed at the swarm of goon alts that hound my posts .. sorry if I offended you. bloody hell, it'd take more than that to offend me! :) besides, i am one of the weaker minded people anyway. although you're still wrong about the GTC for ISK.
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:27:00 - [22] Edited by: Robert Dobbs on 04/06/2007 14:29:41 Originally by: Faye Valerii When you're allowing players to play for no RL money at all, you're in effect taking RL money from your REAL subscriber pool and using it to cover the extra cost of hosting for the parasites. If this is true, i agree it is absolutely diabolical and it will most likely mean that I end my EVE subscription. But you are jumping to conclusions sir :) Don't take it to heart until a solid announcement is made with the fine details of how the new system works. CCP have a history of saying one thing and doing another.. also, bear in mind that this would mean a LOT less money for CCP since they'd see a HUGE number of paying customers switch to ISK. I don't think even the most demented business manager would see your enterpretation as a viable option! --------- <Talon`dor\|Work> Arma - yeah but we call BNC dirty boosterhoes
Faye Valerii Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:29:00 - [23] Indeed Sir Robert : ) That's what I am hoping, and if enough angry people start threads about this in the forums, maybe they will listen.
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:33:00 - [24] I think it is ok for them to separate real life money from ingame currency. I have been dreading this game might somehow, in a far future, turn into a Second Life or Project Entropia clone. I remember playing Project Entropia. Everything in the game cost money, even firing one shot or slicing one enemy cost $$$$ (ammo would be spent, and equipment would degrade). And, as in this game everything you earned could be cashed out, it brought several nasty consequences: - Every activity (crafting & mining, for example) success is random based (well, adjusted by your skills, but still random). Surely you don't expect to be able to pull out the "Rifter" manufacturing process with a 100% chance of success, right? Ah, and your minerals and BPO run are still consumed if you fail. Otherwise the company loses money. - Looting is also randomly based (again, probably adjusted by skills). You generally don't get anything at all, or loot that does not even give you back the cost of firing your ammo (otherwise the company loses money as everyone would be making money and cashing it out). And remember, everytime you fire a shot or slice thru an enemy, or get hit, your equipment degrades, and guess what? Repairing it costs money. - If you don't want to invest RL money on the game, there is a grind that is even more boring that mining here, again, randomly based as a 100% success rate would make the company lose money. You could literally spend hours to earn some "sweat", so you could sell it for some cents. And as a you levelled, your chance of generating sweat diminishes. I have not played it in a while, I might go back to it sometime to play only for fun, but I doubt I would last more than a few hours again. It gave me the idea that it was a GIANT CASINO disguised as a MMORPG (you could hit the jackpot and get a lot of money, but most of the time, you are generally losing it, just like in those damned slots machines). Don't get me wrong, there are some people who play it 24/7 and they make a living out of it, but for the casual gamer it is a boring game where everything costs you money (or that is what it seemed to me), and I have always feared EVE someday would go that away. It would be the end of the game as we know it... So I believe this is a very good move from CCP. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Deacon Ix Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:34:00 - [25] Nice1 Faye All it will do is mean that people with the RL cash will get more alts and mine ect. thus redeveloping the 'macro miner' (not actually using a macro but having 3/4 PCs all running eve amounts to the same end result) What the GTC system does is provide a legal system so it can be controled, as has been seen in every case - when something is made illegal it will just find a market underground and good/innocent people will start getting screwed over
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:35:00 - [26] Originally by: sesanti It gave me the idea that it was a GIANT CASINO disguised as a MMORPG (you could hit the jackpot and get a lot of money, but most of the time, you are generally losing it, just like in those damned slots machines). that would be brilliant!
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:35:00 - [27] Originally by: Robert Dobbs Edited by: Robert Dobbs on 04/06/2007 14:29:41 Originally by: Faye Valerii When you're allowing players to play for no RL money at all, you're in effect taking RL money from your REAL subscriber pool and using it to cover the extra cost of hosting for the parasites. If this is true, i agree it is absolutely diabolical and it will most likely mean that I end my EVE subscription. But you are jumping to conclusions sir :) Don't take it to heart until a solid announcement is made with the fine details of how the new system works. CCP have a history of saying one thing and doing another.. also, bear in mind that this would mean a LOT less money for CCP since they'd see a HUGE number of paying customers switch to ISK. I don't think even the most demented business manager would see your enterpretation as a viable option! I believe if CCP were to introduce this, the cost of a monthly installment would be WAY HIGHER than the current cost using a GTC (in isk, i mean). Otherwise everybody would begin paying with ISK and CCP would lose money. That's why Kieron says "time and ISK-rich". Maybe we are talking into the billions scale. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:37:00 - [28] Originally by: ry ry Originally by: sesanti It gave me the idea that it was a GIANT CASINO disguised as a MMORPG (you could hit the jackpot and get a lot of money, but most of the time, you are generally losing it, just like in those damned slots machines). that would be brilliant! That is what it is, at least from the point of view of the company. People spend money and leave happy, most of them lose it to them, only a very very few win it. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:37:00 - [29] Edited by: ry ry on 04/06/2007 14:37:13 if they do implement isk for GTC directly from CCP, it'd be a massive isk sink, which would have a host of knock on effects, not least goods costing less for those of us who don't spend all our iskies on GTCs. that way we gain more time to be doing all the stuff we like, rather than farming the whole time. again, i don't see any problem with this.
Robert Dobbs Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.04 14:41:00 - [30] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 04/06/2007 14:37:13 if they do implement isk for GTC directly from CCP, it'd be a massive isk sink, which would have a host of knock on effects, not least goods costing less for those of us who don't spend all our iskies on GTCs. that way we gain more time to be doing all the stuff we like, rather than farming the whole time. again, i don't see any problem with this. Mm but if there are less people actually paying money as the OP suggests there might be, then either.. a) the subscription fee would rise b) CCP would have less money with which they could improve the game, giving all of us a degraded experience. Do you still see no problem with this? --------- <Talon`dor\|Work> Arma - yeah but we call BNC dirty boosterhoes

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