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Lawsuits against the pyramid schemes?

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Garkon Woolin	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:03:00 - [1] Hi! I am pretty new but I read a bit on some pyramid schemes and investment scams which happened on eve, and was quite enraged. Since ISK can be officially traded for stuff which is worth money in r/l (gtcs..?), one can argue that ISK is worth real money, at a fluctuating exchange rate. Anyway, my point is that since ISK is worth real money, people who were scammed out of it should be able to sue the scammers for fraud. IANAL, but I think it could work and since I hate seeing scammers get away with it, I would be happy to see it happen and assist if I can. What do you think?
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:07:00 - [2] Originally by: Garkon Woolin Hi! I am pretty new but I read a bit on some pyramid schemes and investment scams which happened on eve, and was quite enraged. Since ISK can be officially traded for stuff which is worth money in r/l (gtcs..?), one can argue that ISK is worth real money, at a fluctuating exchange rate. Incorrect. CCP does not endorse buying GTCs with ISK--they endorse buying through a secure system that automatically adds the gametime to your account. Since you cannot buy the code itself, you cannot resell, and therefore ISK != $. --23 Member--
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:07:00 - [3] Edited by: Wylker on 05/06/2007 23:06:41 ISK is not worth anything. You can never own isk. CCP owns all electronic property pertaining to EVE. Trading isk for RL money is against the EULA. Also, who are you going to sue? You can't file a legal proceeding and name "Dark Shikari" as the defendant. (hugz DS :P) If ISK scams in a pretend universe ENRAGE you, you should probably see a doctor and take something to calm down. edit ok how the hell did you get in before me DS? /edit Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:08:00 - [4] Fraid not my good chum. Quoth the EULA: Originally by: EULA B. Rights to Certain Content You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved. And another relevant bit: Originally by: EULA B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. Nothing in the game or on CCP's servers actually belong to you- it's all the property of CCP. And you can't sue for what isn't yours. --------
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:11:00 - [5] Originally by: Wylker edit ok how the hell did you get in before me DS? /edit Magic. --23 Member--
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:12:00 - [6] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Wylker edit ok how the hell did you get in before me DS? /edit Magic. I was going for the First myself, but I decided to slow down and go the whole hog and quote the EULA. This wins me style points --------
Lance Hawke Beyond Divinity Inc Blind Beavers	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:16:00 - [7] ENRAGED
Rabb Darktide Cirrius Technologies O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:21:00 - [8] ITS JUST A DAMN VIDEO GAME!!!!!!!!!!!! My God man.. ---- Rabb Darktide Cirrius Technologies / O X I D E High Council
Kehmor Caldari The Movement	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:26:00 - [9] Sir you do have a case. I am a lawyer and would gladly help you for a small isk fee. Please contact me in game. The Movement is recruiting!
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Wylker ISK is not worth anything. You can never own isk. Bragg vs Linden Labs Hernandez vs IGE I've allways said I don't believe that the neo-prohibitionist approach would stand up in a court of law. Now, we're going to see the start of that stand. Be interesting to see how EULA's evolve to cope, to say the least. //Maya
Korizan Oort Cloud Industries	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Kehmor Sir you do have a case. I am a lawyer and would gladly help you for a small isk fee. Please contact me in game. Now that is classic.
Likewise	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:21:00 - [12] Originally by: Kehmor Sir you do have a case. I am a lawyer and would gladly help you for a small isk fee. Please contact me in game. That actually did make me LOL.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:26:00 - [13] So you won't accept scamming. But you will accept stealing, killing and destruction of your so called money? It is a G A M E.
Garkon Woolin	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:29:00 - [14] Yes, this is just a game - and I wasn't even scammed nor in any danger thereof. So what? people work hours and hours, months and years to earn their ISK. as for the bragg vs. linden labs - he won; http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2007/05/31/judge-rules-against-one-sided-tos-in-bragg-lawsuit/ eulas are eulas - they can say anything they want, but real world court cases have shown that eulas are not legally binding in cases where they were unfair to users.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Garkon Woolin Yes, this is just a game - and I wasn't even scammed nor in any danger thereof. So what? people work hours and hours, months and years to earn their ISK. as for the bragg vs. linden labs - he won; http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2007/05/31/judge-rules-against-one-sided-tos-in-bragg-lawsuit/ eulas are eulas - they can say anything they want, but real world court cases have shown that eulas are not legally binding in cases where they were unfair to users. Big difference: Linden Labs, the makers of Second Life, specifically designed their game to be a RMT game and even offers exchange between in-game money and real-life money. EVE is the complete opposite: RMT trading is banned, and no such exchange exists. --23 Member--
Garkon Woolin	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Trak Cranker So you won't accept scamming. But you will accept stealing, killing and destruction of your so called money? It is a G A M E. certainly! If I go fly somewhere, I am well aware that I can be killed - this is part of the game. if I give someone money for a promise of more money, I expect that to be fulfilled. I'll repeat - yes, this is a game. No! I've not been scammed. But nevertheless some people cheat people out of many many hours, which are real as anything.
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Wylker ISK is not worth anything. You can never own isk. Bragg vs Linden Labs Hernandez vs IGE I've allways said I don't believe that the neo-prohibitionist approach would stand up in a court of law. Now, we're going to see the start of that stand. Be interesting to see how EULA's evolve to cope, to say the least. Don't know the IGE case, but the Linden Labs (Second Life) one is different because it does in fact run on a real world economy with Linden Dollars being exchangeable with US Dollars at a fixed exchange rate. In a game where there is no sanctioned trade of ingame items and currency for real money, it would have zero bearing. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Garkon Woolin If I go fly somewhere, I am well aware that I can be killed - this is part of the game. if I give someone money for a promise of more money, I expect that to be fulfilled. Except that there is no rule in the game that says people have to live up to their "promises." Imagine if such a rule existed--there would be no breaking of alliances, no drama! --23 Member--
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Garkon Woolin Yes, this is just a game - and I wasn't even scammed nor in any danger thereof. So what? people work hours and hours, months and years to earn their ISK. as for the bragg vs. linden labs - he won; http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2007/05/31/judge-rules-against-one-sided-tos-in-bragg-lawsuit/ eulas are eulas - they can say anything they want, but real world court cases have shown that eulas are not legally binding in cases where they were unfair to users. The case is completely different. Second Life is a game where RL cash transactions are not just allowed but encouraged. They market their game as a virtual world, with real business opportunities. And the judge's ruling was on an arbitration clause that he deemed unfair, not the matter of scamming or virtual property ownership. EVE is a game that expressly forbids the sale of isk for RL money (GTC's being a hole CCP have stated they with to plug), and the matter of the scammers is nothing to do with arbitration clauses. In EVE, theft and violence are encouraged- and whats the difference between stealing a billion isk off someone by blowing up their freighter and stealing a valuable cargo and taking it off them with a coporate investment? Are we going to start sueing people for blowing up our ships, as well? --------
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:38:00 - [20] Originally by: Garkon Woolin Originally by: Trak Cranker So you won't accept scamming. But you will accept stealing, killing and destruction of your so called money? It is a G A M E. certainly! If I go fly somewhere, I am well aware that I can be killed - this is part of the game. if I give someone money for a promise of more money, I expect that to be fulfilled. I'll repeat - yes, this is a game. No! I've not been scammed. But nevertheless some people cheat people out of many many hours, which are real as anything. Surely an unprovoked attack on you can cost you many hours work as well? And where does it say that scamming is not part of the game? How can anyone but CCP draw that line?
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:40:00 - [21] Patch, Actually, the ruling already made has already had an "impact" on Eve. An American court taking the precident of the Bragg ruling is clearly going to decide against clause 16, second paragraph - it is if anything, more obnoxious (in the legal sense). And yes, I know CCP is intending to give the Ebay ISK sellers an early christmas. I disagree that that's a good idea. //Maya
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.06.06 01:25:00 - [22] This topic is dumb, CCP owns all 1's and 0's contained on their hardware. Unless they in writting give us the ownership, you don't anything but useless 1's and 0's on their servers.
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.06.06 01:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Maya Rkell Patch, Actually, the ruling already made has already had an "impact" on Eve. An American court taking the precident of the Bragg ruling is clearly going to decide against clause 16, second paragraph - it is if anything, more obnoxious (in the legal sense). And yes, I know CCP is intending to give the Ebay ISK sellers an early christmas. I disagree that that's a good idea. Clause 16 does not stipulate arbitration as the only means of conflict resolution, it just establishes the legal venue of the contract, which is perfectly acceptable in in contract law. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.06.06 02:55:00 - [24] ISK is data on CCP's database. CCP owns that data. Buying ISK is a scam, not business. Buying GTCs to sell for isk is not a scam, but it's not a business either. You could only chuck a lawsuit at CCP if they failed to provide their service effectively, which is the ability to play the EVE game via your client. mutters something indecipherable about people who want a ****** free lunch* Improve Market Competition!
Lavinrac Krad	Posted - 2007.06.06 03:38:00 - [25] As soon as you give monetary value to isk and in game assets, expect for your government to want to tax it. They may have monetary value on a black market, but we don't want them to have that value in the regulated market (Can of worms, I'm telling you).
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Lavinrac Krad As soon as you give monetary value to isk and in game assets, expect for your government to want to tax it. They may have monetary value on a black market, but we don't want them to have that value in the regulated market (Can of worms, I'm telling you). This.
Entity One	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:55:00 - [27] Being ******** enough to fall for a pyramid scheme is more of a crime than scamming fake game money imo. Anyone who lost money in a pyramid scheme apparently doesn't know how to do basic arithmetic.
Wyehr Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:13:00 - [28] OMG! Forum Lawyers! I love you guys! Every time this comes up, I have to read the whole thread to see if I get to be the voice of reality or if someone else will beat me to it. As a techie, you may think the matter obvious and closed, since ISK isn't real, but merely a database entry in CCP's servers. You should really meet some lawyers, who will readily tell you that the matter is novel and open, since your checking account is just a database entry in your bank's computer, and the questions of control and expectations of access apply to both. P.S. ISK has cash value. CCP may disagree, they may disapprove, they may make the transition difficult, but the (platonic) reality is what matters in court. P.P.S. Google for "title" if you don't already know how complicated western law can be when it comes to property rights. [ 2007.03.18 18:45:59 ] (notify) Typhoon belonging to Gandolf self-destructs.
Fswd	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:23:00 - [29] Own fault you got scammed, live with it. --- So I flame and troll when the occasion calls for it. So what are you gonna do about it?
Cadela Fria Amarr The League of Legitimate Nigerian Businessmen	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Garkon Woolin Originally by: Trak Cranker So you won't accept scamming. But you will accept stealing, killing and destruction of your so called money? It is a G A M E. certainly! If I go fly somewhere, I am well aware that I can be killed - this is part of the game. if I give someone money for a promise of more money, I expect that to be fulfilled. I'll repeat - yes, this is a game. No! I've not been scammed. But nevertheless some people cheat people out of many many hours, which are real as anything. Just as you can be killed, you can be scammed, lied to and backstabbed. The argument of having spent "real hours" getting what you want, is just not valid. You can apply that to any game where you can achieve something by spending time working for it. Like Command & Conquer: Tiberium Wars - You spend REAL time, mining Tiberium to build your base and army, only with the most likely outcome of losing it all. Please don't tell me you're emberassing yourself by attempting to sue your opponent after you lost a game of CnC. "Funny, but CnC is built specifically for tactical warfare and blowing your opponent up. The whole point of the game, is destruction." - You might say this. However then you didn't turn on your brain. EVE is a PvP game, always was, and hopefully always will be. PvP involves more then just shooting at one another. It involves politics, undercover ops, lies, deceit, markets and various shady deals. You knew this when you signed up, and if you didn't, you do now - It's just the nature of the game. As someone once said: EVE is the perfect game of darwinism. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right

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