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Cloaking Device Invention Question

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Kirith Kodachi Kodachi Enterprises	Posted - 2007.06.13 11:51:00 - [1] My corp is moving from shield mod invention (which has been quite successful, thanks) into Cloaking Device invention since the required skills are similar with the exception of Graviton Physics in place of Quantum Mechanics. I noticed that the max run BPC for Prototype Cloaking Device was low, around 20? And the copying time and requirements were quite stiff. This leads me to suspect that perhaps not all mods are equal in terms of invention success rates. So my question is thus: is the base success rate for Prototype Cloaking Device BPC the same or lower than say Invulnerability Fields?
Aykido Gallente Darkstar Consortium	Posted - 2007.06.13 12:20:00 - [2] Edited by: Aykido on 13/06/2007 12:29:40 Edited by: Aykido on 13/06/2007 12:19:19 max run Prototype Cloaking Device is 100 runs. Only with a 100 run BPC will you get a base 10 run Improved or Covert Ops cloak. A maxed skill copier (science 5) with the necessary advanced science skills, (graviton 3, quantum 3) can make a single 100 run copy in 10d10h at a mobile lab in a POS. Making the copy at a station will take almost (just under) 14d plus whatever waiting time you are facing. The other option is using a 1 run BPC for a 0 run base BPC + decryptor bonus (minimum of 1 run) With good skills, 100 run BPC, best decryptor and built prototype cloaking device as base item, expect about 60% chance of either a 14 run improved cloak or a 14 run covert ops cloak. Expensive attempts = 70mil per attempt (50 mil BPC) cost per run = 8-8,5mil per run Or using a 1 run BPC, max run decryptor and no base item a 9 run BPC with a 15% success rate. "Cheap" attempts = 10mil per attempt cost per run = 7 mil (plus construction costs) Selling PERFECT PRINTS of 674 of the 730 seeded T1 BPOs: Ships, modules, rigs, drones, ammo, probes, components and capital mods, drones & ammo. (Cap Ships, Cap Components and Outposts 2007/2008)
silverzee	Posted - 2007.06.13 15:03:00 - [3] what is the best decryptor for prototype cloak??
Aykido Gallente Darkstar Consortium	Posted - 2007.06.13 17:34:00 - [4] Depends on the BPC you use. either max run BPC, and then use installation guide worth it for 30% incresed success rate and +4 runs (i.e., you get 14 run BPCs) If you can get 100 run BPCs for 40mil or less this is the most cost efficient way to make them. Success in 2/3 jobs with max skills. at a cost of 150-250mil you should have 14 runs of improved and 14 runs of covert ops in 3-4 attempts. or with 1 run BPCs (relatively easy to make) and max run decryptors success in 1 out of 6/7 jobs with max skills (result is 9 run T2 BPC). at a cost of 100-150mil you should have 9 runs of improved and 9 runs of covert ops in 12-15 attempts. Note that because 50% of successes are improved cloaks, there is not any easy money in cloak invention. To make decent profit, you need capital to withstand a few failures and you need trade skills or good location to make more than minimal profit. Selling PERFECT PRINTS of 674 of the 730 seeded T1 BPOs: Ships, modules, rigs, drones, ammo, probes, components and capital mods, drones & ammo. (Cap Ships, Cap Components and Outposts 2007/2008)
Kirith Kodachi Kodachi Enterprises	Posted - 2007.06.13 18:04:00 - [5] Thank you very much for the information, it was extremely helpful!
Kirith Kodachi Kodachi Enterprises	Posted - 2007.06.14 13:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Aykido Depends on the BPC you use. either max run BPC, and then use installation guide worth it for 30% incresed success rate and +4 runs (i.e., you get 14 run BPCs) If you can get 100 run BPCs for 40mil or less this is the most cost efficient way to make them. Success in 2/3 jobs with max skills. at a cost of 150-250mil you should have 14 runs of improved and 14 runs of covert ops in 3-4 attempts. OK, I have a question with your numbers. "100 run BPCs for 40mil" - I assume that is the cost of purchasing them through the contract market? Also, assuming I get my datacores for RPs instead of ISK and produce my own 100 run BPCs, then the majority cost of each invention run should be the optional Prototype Cloaking module and Decryptor, correct? (ignoring the "startup costs" for the interface and req skills of course)
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.06.14 17:00:00 - [7] He, he. The Datacores and BPC still hold a value even though you make them yourself. You should not count them as free. (If you could sell them on market you would just be cheating yourself if you didnt count thier value into your invention project.) "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Masheine	Posted - 2007.06.14 17:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Kirith Kodachi Also, assuming I get my datacores for RPs instead of ISK and produce my own 100 run BPCs, then the majority cost of each invention run should be the optional Prototype Cloaking module and Decryptor, correct? (ignoring the "startup costs" for the interface and req skills of course) Imagine you're a farmer. You're growing crops. You grow some wheat, harvest the wheat, mill it into flour. Imagine you can sell the flour for $1 per pound. Imagine you can make one pound of flour into a loaf of bread, which you can sell for $1.50. Now imagine you could also make three pounds of flour into a cake, which you can sell for $2. You cost to make either the bread or the cake is not nothing. You have spent nothing to acquire the goods to make the items, but you still have the goods, which have value on their own, because you can sell them directly. Making the bread is profitable, you can either sell the flour for a $1 per pound, or turn that same pound into bread, and sell it for $1.50. Making cake is not profitable. You make three pounds of flour into cake and sell it for $2, when you could have sold the flour for $1 per pound, getting $3 total. You've effectively lost $1. It's very important to look at production this way. A lot of people don't seem to get it, and we get people selling items for well below their actual value. It hurts them, because they're losing money (though they probably spell it "loosing"), and it hurts the rest of us, because it's hard to out price people who don't understand the value of their goods.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. Southern Connection	Posted - 2007.06.14 18:00:00 - [9] Now to add to that discussion, an ever more important point is that people don't value their time. Let's say I could sell that bread for $1.50, but to turn the flower into bread would take as long as getting another pound of wheat. Now instead of making $2.00 in x amount of time, I'm only making 1.50 because I decided to spend the time to make the bread. I've effectively lost $0.50 even though I increased the value of my raw goods by 50%. _______________ Pwett CEO and Founder [QTC]QUANT Corp.
Kirith Kodachi Kodachi Enterprises	Posted - 2007.06.15 12:50:00 - [10] Edited by: Kirith Kodachi on 15/06/2007 12:50:53 Man, I didn't do this much thinking about production and economics in my Economics 101 class in university. OK I understand that time is money and getting minerals or Datacores "for free" is not really for free. What I'm really trying to understand is the composition of the statement "40 mil for the BPC" to ensure I'm not missing any requirements. How is that number exactly arrived at? In my calculations, to create a 100 run BPC of the cloaking device the cost is: - price of BPO (once) - price of Datasheets and R DB components (each run) - cost of renting lab slot (each run) So ignoring the one-time cost of the BPO (which can be amortized over the lifetime of BPC production) I can't understand why the price of the BPC would be 40mil. Unless I misunderstood that poster and they were referring to the end cost of the invented T2 BPC which would then include the datacores, mod, decryptor etc. I haven't run those numbers yet. EDIT: Pwett, the mining Rokh in your sig makes me sad.
ockackies	Posted - 2007.06.15 14:14:00 - [11] it costs around 40mil if you buy the RDB's, and they themselves take a long time to build, but thier price fluctuates quite wildy. Last time I saw they cost 500k - 900k each, overpriced but it saves building them. (50% damage per run btw)
Kirith Kodachi Kodachi Enterprises	Posted - 2007.06.15 14:27:00 - [12] Originally by: ockackies it costs around 40mil if you buy the RDB's, and they themselves take a long time to build, but thier price fluctuates quite wildy. Last time I saw they cost 500k - 900k each, overpriced but it saves building them. (50% damage per run btw) I don't get it. 2 RDBs per copy job x say 1 million/RDB = 2 million isk <> 40 million isk. Either I'm missing something or we are talking about two different things. :/
Masheine	Posted - 2007.06.15 21:06:00 - [13] I don't recall ever paying anywhere near 40mil for some RDb's... I think the 40mil figure is what someone has priced the BPC at. Actual production costs on the copy are low, but they take forever to get done in a public lab just due to how many other people have jobs queued up, so people are willing to just buy them rather than wait to produce their own copies. If people are willing to pay 40mil for a max run copy, that means that when you produce one, it's worth 40mil (just like the wheat, which may have only cost you $0.20 for some seeds, and a month to grow, but can sell for $1 per pound). So you need to take that into account when calculating your costs. The fact that you _could_ have just sold the bpc directly for $nn, rather than actually making the cloaks.
the blender the Gentleman Loser	Posted - 2007.06.16 02:26:00 - [14] The reason for the high price of cloak BPC's is the huge amount of time it takes to copy the buggers, 10 days for 1 100run BPC in my own POS (no waiting, and thats on a max PE print as well. The reason for the long times is because the Prototype cloak BPO used to be T2 till the other cloaks hit the market, so it got bumped down to T1 but they didnt remove the T2 needs or production times. And do bear in mind that you only have a 50% chance at getting a cov-ops II BPC, the other ones just arnt worth building.
Fitz VonHeise United Connection's	Posted - 2007.06.16 03:30:00 - [15] cool
Kirith Kodachi Kodachi Enterprises	Posted - 2007.06.16 12:13:00 - [16] Awesome, thanks for the replies again.
EmmettBrown BTTF Enterprises	Posted - 2007.06.16 14:41:00 - [17] I have a permanent copy job of 5x 100run proto cloak bpcs running for a customer used for invention. The price of 40 mill is a little low tbh :) ------------------------------------------ BPO Sales Thread

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