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Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 22:03:22 After complaining about other peoples stupid ideas for a lot of time i have decided to go and make my own longish thread with uber-amarr-boost ideas. ============================ Amarr Revamp Ideas ============================ General Issues: 1.Laser Issues a) laser cap use reduction bonus is seen as a wasted bonus The default amarr bonus "10% reduction in [size] laser capacitor need" is seen as a flawed bonus. It does not improve your ship but is pretty much a requirement to fit lasers. If you want to get a decent capuse out of your lasers you will need to train the shipskill to 4 or even 5. The bonus was created to insure that only amarrian laserboats would be able to efficently use lasers. It is also including a "hidden damagebonus". Lasers already deal more raw dps by default and are only made useable in combination with the shipskill. For our laser-damage ships this works alright (geddon, harbinger, zealot and such). b) tanker line of ships does not have much reason to fit lasers over autocannons The problem with this lies with our tanker line of ships: punisher, maller, proph, apoc. These ships all have a "hidden damagebonus" that is not all that useful when you're not trying to deal damage but rather tank it. In addition to that lasers still use a lot of cap on those ships even with the bonus..which is also not very useful for tanking. As our tankers dont have a second laser bonus and this first one doesnt help them much it often makes sense to fit autocannons and a heavy tank on these ships instead of lasers. Your damage output still wont be all that high but you can keep all your cap for tanking and get to deal your damage in explosive/kinetic which is nice against the all too common armortanks. c) heavy capuse on lasers -> amarr are most vulnerable to capacitor warfare Due to the cap intensive nature of lasers and armortanks amarrian ships are the most vulnerable to capacitor warfare even though they generally have the biggest capacitor. Also their advantage in terms of cap capacity and cap recharge is often not big enough to make up for their higher capneed compared to other races ships. d) omni tanks greatly increase em-resistance on armor / racial resists are flawed has been the content of many complaints. eanm-omnitanks are simply too good compared to specific tanks to not use them (even after the changes to eanm/hardener cpu-need). as such they are present in many pvp setups and push the already high em-resist on armor to even higher levels. this is particulary bad for amarr as we deal most of our damage in em and are very limited when it comes to selecting different damagetypes. regarding the 2nd part of this problem: the way racial resists are applied as a flat 10% is very much flawed as it greatly favours minmatar ships with 70% em resitance on armor. e) fitting requirements for some of the heavier lasers medium beams are getting fixed now and can finalyl be fitted on retributions without gimping their setup. still to adjust: heavy pulse/beam lasers, mega beam lasers, tachyon beam lasers. in all cases the cost is high in both powergrid and cpu (high for amarr ships at least). f) range on t2 megabeams is to short battleship t2 snipers (much needed for 0.0 fleet warfare) with amarrin ships are pretty much forced to use the very hard to fit tachyon beam lasers to achieve the required optimal ranges. even with 3x tracking enhancers/computers mega beams with aurora cant really reach far enough. the heavy reliance on optimal and compared to hybrids and projectiles smaller falloff are to blame here.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:46:00 - [2] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 22:01:51 2. Lack of Versatility a) due to the heavy reliance on lasers amarrian fleets are very predictable/easy to counter amarrian fleets can be counterd quiet nicely by preparing for em/thermal damage and having a few tracking disruptors as ewar. b) all 3 amarr bs cover pretty much the same role as it stands now our 3 battleships for most of the time fill the same roles. Which one is prefered for a given taks is more a matter of personal style and the amount of isk one wants to spend than any design differences. c) There is still no sighting of the much liked Khanid MK2 project khanid ships with the sole exception of the curse currently preset poor versions of their viziam/carthum counterparts. sacrilege and vengeance were even patched to look more like zealot and retribution and they ended up dissapointing again. 3. missing 6th frig / missing astrometrics frig should someone open the market under the section section ships\frigates\amarr to do some counting he will notice that there are 5 t1 versions available compared to the 6 t1 frigates minmatar, caldari and gallente get. coincidentially we're also one t1 astrometrics frigate short. 4. the auguror-issue not only is this little ship not all that useful but its also spelled wrong (either that or the description that is now only found on the guardian has it wrong).
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:47:00 - [3] please do not disturb the little placeholder..should soon be filled.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:48:00 - [4] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 21:47:09 please do not disturb the little placeholder..should soon be filled.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:50:00 - [5] please do not disturb the little placeholder..should soon be filled.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:51:00 - [6] please do not disturb the little placeholder..should soon be filled.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:52:00 - [7] please do not disturb the little placeholder..should soon be filled.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:53:00 - [8]
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:54:00 - [9] please do not disturb the little placeholder..should soon be filled.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:54:00 - [10] please do not disturb the little placeholder..should soon be filled.

Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 21:55:00 - [11] please do not disturb the little placeholder..should soon be filled. hope this is the last i will need...feel free not to reply until its all posted.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.13 23:01:00 - [12] You realize that you just made amarran ships WORSE right? You added no damage and increased cap use. There is no 25% laser damage bonus, its a myth. Beams do 16% more DPS than rails Blasters do 16% more dps than Pulses. Rails have a stronger range bonus than pulses. Rails are easier to fit than beams. Blasters are easier to fit than Pulses[exception, brutix]. The secondary modules also dont help, since they have to sacrifice other slots in order to fit those new modules. Terrible terrible idea. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.13 23:25:00 - [13] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 23:24:38 Originally by: Goumindong You realize that you just made amarran ships WORSE right? You added no damage and increased cap use. which is why all the ships that are currently good and working get the lost damage back with a 5% laser damage bonus and get the lost cap back with increased base cap and better cap recharge rate. for those ships nothing changes. for those ships nothing major needs to change. eanm fix and proper racial bonuses would boost the geddon, zealot and such more than enough. add some minor fitting tweaks maybe. all the tankers that pretty much suck for damage anyway get a real 2nd tanking bonus to make them good at what they are supposed to do: tank. edit: what secondary modules?
Amira Silvermist The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2007.06.14 12:08:00 - [14] Sounds like a really interesting idea. Lineup 1 would rock. --------------------------------------------------
Grr Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.06.14 12:17:00 - [15] About time I see a thread suggesting Amarr changes from somebody that actually knows what they are talking about. I agree with most of the ideas here.
Tartarus Vile	Posted - 2007.06.14 12:24:00 - [16] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 22:37:16 crusader - role: tackler / laser-dmg - 5% small laser damage - 5% small laser dmg - 5% sig reduction - 7.5% small laser tracking - capacitor +75 -> 450 @ 281.25 (1.6x) ---------------------------- retribution - role: escort / laser-dmg - 5% small laser damage - 10% small laser optimal - 5% small laser damage - capacitor 437 @ 187.50 (2.33x) ============================ add +1 midslot to them.
Grr Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.06.14 15:55:00 - [17] As much as I wouldn't complain and as nice as an extra mid slot would be it would unbalance things making their roles as gunboats no longer unique.
Habraka Canes Pugnaces	Posted - 2007.06.14 17:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Tartarus Vile Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 22:37:16 crusader - role: tackler / laser-dmg - 5% small laser damage - 5% small laser dmg - 5% sig reduction - 7.5% small laser tracking - capacitor +75 -> 450 @ 281.25 (1.6x) ---------------------------- retribution - role: escort / laser-dmg - 5% small laser damage - 10% small laser optimal - 5% small laser damage - capacitor 437 @ 187.50 (2.33x) ============================ add +1 midslot to them. To be honest, it's not really needed. I've been flying Amarr for over 2 years now and I've grown to love the two midslot Crusader. The Malediction is the tackler frigate, while the Crusader is designed to do damage.
Ma Raia'l Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.14 17:07:00 - [19] Well, it's different than what I would think would fix Amarr, but a few points aren't bad. However, I think I'll have to completely disagree with you regarding versatility. I think the rigidness of Amarrian ships should be it's strength. They may not be able to do a whole lot other than gank/tank, but damn it they should be the best gankers/tankers out there. They sacrifice everything else (EW, drones, missiles, etc) for being the best at the only thing they can do (tank and/or gank). There's a long standing tradition in RPG's: there is one race (Human, or in the case of EvE-Online I think it should be Gallente) that is the iconic jack of all trades but master of none. They might be able do everything okay, but there's always other races that excel in one specific area. This is what I think EvE is currently: Caldari: missile spamming, EW and sniper kings. Minmatar: masters of hit and run warfare, speed-demons. Amarr: gankers/tankers, though they fall short of being the best in these departments. That goes to... Gallente: How long has it been since they've gotten a nerf? They are: -the best gankers (and range is not an issue, as all combat either takes place at short range {in which Gallente have no problem dictating range, expect against Minmatar ships} or long range {in which anything other than snipers are useless}), -arguably have the best tankers (Myrmidon - uber shield tank AND armour tank?, Hyperion, and the tanking version of the Gallente CS), -have EW option on par with the (nerfed) Caldari due to the effectiveness of sensor damps, and the fact most of their ships have a healthy amount of med slots. -and are extremely versatile. They can decide to do nearly anything. It's the fact that Gallente are not only the most versatile race, they are also the strongest (or at least on or very near par with the strongest) in every field they can fit their ships to. Traditionally in RPG's the world over, any race that is the most versatile is also the most average race. They may be able to do everything, but they can't do anything exceptionally well. So how do you fix Amarr? it's two fold. 1) Buff our tanking abilities (ex: giving us the armour repair amount as well as resistance bonuses) and ganking abilities (keep the high cap use on lasers and buff our damage, or fix armour resistances against EM) 2) Nerf Gallente so they are okay at everything but master of nothing (except drones). Thus giving them a real role; the role being versatility. This would give all the races their own unique roles. Caldari: missile spamming, EW and sniper kings. Minmatar: masters of hit and run warfare, speed-demons. Amarr: the best tankers/gankers, but can't do anything else. Gallente: jack of all trades but masters of none (except drones).
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.14 19:55:00 - [20] Originally by: Ma Raia'l Amarr: the best tankers/gankers, but can't do anything else. i like the general idea of that too but i think it would be too hard to balance properly. if amarr are limited to just gank (maybe lasers only) and tank then they need to be really really good at that compared to other races. when fighting against intelligent opponents versatility becomes very important and predictablility makes you very easy to defeat. especially when your one trick can be countered as easy as lasers. the main rpoblem for the restricted race would lie with small gang and solo warfare as it can already be seen with amarr today. to make up for that lasers would need to become very powerful gank weapons. and while that may look balanced for small gang and 1vs1 it will become a much greater issue for bigger gangs/fleets. lasers (in most cases) have a very good range and instant damage. as such they scale up very good in fleets and it becomes very easy to create a sphere of death around a fleet of laserboats. add the high damage they would need to make up for the lack of versatility and they could easily become overpowered in fleet warfare. hence i suggest to take a middle road and allow amarr some ships that break out of their normal designs. the arbitrator already does that very well for cruisers. khanid mk2 will likely help some more. the only ship class that is missing out are battleships. as they are somewhat essential for medium gang/fleet warfare this is a real problem. besides...we simply dont need three battleships that all fill the same role.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.14 22:31:00 - [21] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/06/2007 22:32:04 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 23:24:38 Originally by: Goumindong You realize that you just made amarran ships WORSE right? You added no damage and increased cap use. which is why all the ships that are currently good and working get the lost damage back with a 5% laser damage bonus and get the lost cap back with increased base cap and better cap recharge rate. for those ships nothing changes. for those ships nothing major needs to change. eanm fix and proper racial bonuses would boost the geddon, zealot and such more than enough. add some minor fitting tweaks maybe. all the tankers that pretty much suck for damage anyway get a real 2nd tanking bonus to make them good at what they are supposed to do: tank. edit: what secondary modules? The modules you describe in the OP.[ed: NM, read it wrong. Its still pretty dumb] And no, with ship skill 4 your ships use the same amount of cap, and do less damage than current amarr ships. With ship skill 5, they use more cap, and do the same amount of damage than current amarr ships This change increases the cap use of amarran ships and does not give them any more damage. Before ship skill 5 it reduces the already low damage. The idea is frankly terrible. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.15 00:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Goumindong And no, with ship skill 4 your ships use the same amount of cap, and do less damage than current amarr ships. With ship skill 5, they use more cap, and do the same amount of damage than current amarr ships yes. shiplevel will have no influence on the cap used to fire your lasers. it will influence damage. just like it works for minmatar, gallente and caldari ships. you may remember them from all those thread where amarrians complained that those races had it better with their useful bonuses. Originally by: Goumindong This change increases the cap use of amarran ships and does not give them any more damage. Before ship skill 5 it reduces the already low damage. it increases the capneed of lasers and gives the ships more cap. where would i find that cap problem your imagining? and yes before lvl5 damage would be slightly lower. not much different from now where you need level 4 or 5 just to be efficient. i would certainly not complain about an additional damage boost for lasers but that may be too much of a boost for our already pretty good laserboats. the idea is to have the same endresult at lvl5 for the damagdealers while allowing our tankers to get a more tanking oriented bonus instead. the current problems with low damge from lasers dont come from a lack of raw damage on our laser-damage dealers (zealot, harbinger, geddon and such). to solve those issues one needs to adress the problems with racial resistances and omnitanks/high em resist on armor. Originally by: Goumindong General cap boosts make fiting lasers even LESS desireable. Now not only it is underireable to fit lasers on tanking ships, its less desireable to fit lasers on NON laser ships, especialy before you have ship skill 5. on the tankers lasers deal less damage but also repair armor or neut the enemy with each shot fired. this is exactly what tanking is about. less damage but more survivability. if you want damage use the laser-damage dealers which will have no change whatsoever in damageoutput once you reach lvl5. Originally by: Goumindong Unless you use the cap reduction/battery idea the cap is better spent on direct methods of repairing with autocannons instead of lasers. it is currently better to use autocannons instead of lasers on our tankers not jsut because of the capneed but also because of the more desirable damagetypes agaisnt the common armortanks. once that is fixed a lasers raw damage combined with an armor repair ability can be better than autocannons. also: the armor repair tied to those lasers does not need to use the values i wrote here. could very well be made more efficient if those values are deemed to low. anyway the point was to come up with a laser-bonuse that will really help with tanking. this does include moving our tankers away from damagedealing and closer to dedicated tankers. obviously the tanking bonus needs to be good enough to make spending the cap for your lasers worth it.
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.15 01:53:00 - [23] This is how I see it. Gallente=Minimatar>Ammar>Caldari Gallente has best damage, minimatar has best speed on ALL ships by FAR so they have something to give. Minimatar has the best ships to fly smaller than a bc, as those all come down to speed. Gallente has the best battleships and bigger. As they have most dps, which is what matters for gallente. Ammar is a bit gimped by the two main PVP races in game, they both have great em resist. Ammar destroys caldari of course, no burn eden noob**, that stuff only works on noobs. Killmail *s aren't real pvp imo. However Ammar has some very good t2 ships, maybe a but gimped on em damage.. but not against caldari so its not worst. Caldari worst speed in all aspects, worst damage, doesnt even have alpha LOL, no ew=no solo. If it caldari wants to ew.. has no tank. About the only good thing about caldari is scorpion.. and that is still slow as **. Speed(mini) and Dps(gallente) ftw Tank(Ammar) ftl.. but after a while Missles (Caldari) ftl
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.06.15 02:40:00 - [24] Huge posting I agree mostly with the analysis and I like almost all of the suggestions. All in all, this concept could work. It's nice you have noticed the built-in damage bonus and don't try to give Amarr a tier2 or tier3 drone BS. Fitting costs should really be looked into. I guess a nice concept would be if lasers need lots of grid (and Amarr ships could actually fit them with less problems) and little CPU while projectiles need more CPU and less grid, thus discouraging from fitting projectiles on Amarr ships. I'm not sure about range, though. Given the huge alpha strike, it might be a valid tradeoff. Better blame it on mandatory fleet tactics and ranges. Regarding the core problems I personally prefer to tinker with the current design as long and possible, to retain it's special flavour, and only change it drastically if it's beyond repair. Perhaps some people would like to look into my set of adjustments: Amarr love Hope that doesn't hijack the thread too much. After all I also just want to help. _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. -
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:09:00 - [25] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/06/2007 18:11:42 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne snip You have managed to create a set of fixes that A: lowers the damage of the all laser based ships, except gank ships which have ship skill 5. B: increases the cap use of all laser based ships C: Increases the incentives to use non-cap based weaponry by way of increased capactor on ships. D: Decreases the incentive to use lasers on tanking ships due to cap use and specialization. Neut idea can be stronger by using an energy neut in the utility high slot, or dropping a gun, using autocannons and doing the same. Cap boost idea can be done better by using a NOS + autocannons as well Armor repair idea can be done better by fitting nos on top and increase the number of repair units. You have made all amarr ships worse, unarguably worse. Its terrible. You reduce the raw damage of lasers BELOW autocannons. Bad tracking, susceptible to tracking disruptors, terrible damage, no damage bonus... You ignore that you need 4 slots in order to be an active tanker. I mean, why would i fit lasers on anything anymore when i could fit autocannons and do even better. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.18 00:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Goumindong Neut idea can be stronger by using an energy neut in the utility high slot, or dropping a gun, using autocannons and doing the same. Cap boost idea can be done better by using a NOS + autocannons as well Armor repair idea can be done better by fitting nos on top and increase the number of repair units. expect hat for all those things (neut/repper/cap boost) you need to sacrifice slots. while my suggestion would jsut give another use to the turret slots. and they can certainly be tweaked to be good enough to justify the loss of raw damage. Originally by: Goumindong You have made all amarr ships worse, unarguably worse. Its terrible. i see you have still not figured out that for some ships nothing changes at all. just because you dont like the idea of dedicated tankers doesnt mean that all ships would be worse off suddenly. all of the laser-damage ships would be able to deal the same amount of damage and have better cap than before. Originally by: Goumindong You reduce the raw damage of lasers BELOW autocannons. Bad tracking, susceptible to tracking disruptors, terrible damage, no damage bonus... - that would be the raw damage before taking into account that autocannons are often not fired from within their optimal range? - pulse tracking isnt really that bad to start with and gets a boost in rev2. - terrible damage/no dmg bonus? yes on the tankers that get additional repair or neut capabilities to make up for the damage they lack. those ships dont need to deal a lot of damage. its not their purpose in the ship lineup i proposed here. there are other ships for damage. no need to have several versions of those in each class. Originally by: Goumindong You ignore that you need 4 slots in order to be an active tanker. where did i do this? or are you not just talking about slots but medslots here? in this case you would be wrong. Originally by: Goumindong I mean, why would i fit lasers on anything anymore when i could fit autocannons and do even better. because you may want to put a heavy tank on that ship and your autocannons would not repair your armor.
Sanctus Maleficus Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance	Posted - 2007.06.18 02:36:00 - [27] Like most other topics, Goumindong has it right. What I don't understand is that theres basically a "bonus" on amarrian ships, and lasers are otherwise penalized when used on other ships. That implies the weapons are some how better, but need to be balanced, but that doesn't really seem to be the case... I mean, without the cap issues, would people use lasers on other ships? I kinda doubt it.
Mahavy Seth Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.18 11:51:00 - [28] Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 18/06/2007 11:53:12 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 23:24:38 Originally by: Goumindong You realize that you just made amarran ships WORSE right? You added no damage and increased cap use. which is why all the ships that are currently good and working get the lost damage back with a 5% laser damage bonus and get the lost cap back with increased base cap and better cap recharge rate. for those ships nothing changes. for those ships nothing major needs to change. eanm fix and proper racial bonuses would boost the geddon, zealot and such more than enough. add some minor fitting tweaks maybe. all the tankers that pretty much suck for damage anyway get a real 2nd tanking bonus to make them good at what they are supposed to do: tank. edit: what secondary modules? Well Udyr, you are a good man, but this changes (awesome changes) will make eve too complex for the Game Designers of CCP. What I mean is this: have you ever played Dune, a veryu old strategic game? There was 3 races in this game, but even if they was using different technology and different units, all these races was pretty the same. If you play with one race, you will be able to play well yet with the other race, because game designer was dumb or lazy. Now check for example Starcraft. If you play with one race, the other 2 are tottally unplayable for you. Blizzard is Blizzard... Anyway these changes Udyr will never take plae because TOO COMPLEX for CCP. Edited: just look at EAN changes... only a ______ can think that peoples will change their tanking setup just for this. But they implemented this anyway!! even if all the comunity was screaming.
GiddeOn Drake	Posted - 2007.06.18 16:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 22:19:37 Defensive Laser Bonuse Idea #3 "Micro Neutraliser" This is an interesting idea, the EM damage of the lasers disrupting the capacitor of a ship instead of damage to the armor. Could be an increase to the recharge time or energy neutralization, just not as much as a neutralizer module of comparable size.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Ordo Ministorum	Posted - 2007.06.18 16:46:00 - [30] Originally by: GiddeOn Drake Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 13/06/2007 22:19:37 Defensive Laser Bonuse Idea #3 "Micro Neutraliser" This is an interesting idea, the EM damage of the lasers disrupting the capacitor of a ship instead of damage to the armor. Could be an increase to the recharge time or energy neutralization, just not as much as a neutralizer module of comparable size. Yes that is definately an interesting idea allright....overall i like the OP's idea's, especially the BS changes...it actaully gives some much needed 'flavour' to Amarr ships. While from an RP perspective Amarr should be rigid and inflexible, it does not make sense from a Game Balance pov. One Empire, One Emeperor, One People, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.



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