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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.01.14 16:38:00 -
[1]
From the GameSpy World of Warcraft Alpha preview & designer interview:
 Quote:
One of the biggest issues with the current generation of MMOs isn't technological, it's philosophical. An MMO is a game, not a social experiment. Creating a huge arena and expecting the players to generate all your content means you've forgotten why people play games in the first place -- to have experiences, to challenge themselves. MMOs shouldn't be about a designer playing god and seeing what all his little ants do in his digital ant farm. To extend the metaphor, MMOs should be a theme park -- not a playground.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Lynal Bother
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Posted - 2004.01.14 16:45:00 -
[2]
Agreed
"Botehred"
Omen (Bad Omen I-X ) (R.I.P)
Maller (Unnameable I) (R.I.P)
Typhoon (Red Dwarf I) (R.I.P)
Tempest (Reighous Endvor) (R.IP)
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Neamus
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Posted - 2004.01.14 16:59:00 -
[3]
Heh the leaked copy of WoW alpha ive seen is lacking in content (no mobs). Still its nice to have a wander around the world and get a look at whats to come. Looking good from what ive seen so far, hopefully the fact its been leaked will help speed the beta process up. Afteral its just a matter of time before the leaked version gets updated. |
Sankari Kinoi
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Posted - 2004.01.14 17:03:00 -
[4]
Explain.
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Artean
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Posted - 2004.01.14 17:08:00 -
[5]
Give me a theme park in EVE.
Me wanna go ride cool roller coaster dressed in a Slasher.  |
Raven DeBlade
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Posted - 2004.01.14 17:15:00 -
[6]
agreed!
"To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees"
"Any statements made above this line are my persona" |
Atrioss
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Posted - 2004.01.14 17:35:00 -
[7]
I agree with the remarks in the poster's quotation. And although Morrowind isn't a MMOG, it won game of the year in large part because of it's wonderful content.
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Korthyn
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Posted - 2004.01.14 17:46:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Korthyn on 14/01/2004 17:47:59
Edited by: Korthyn on 14/01/2004 17:47:28
Quote:
I agree with the remarks in the poster's quotation. And although Morrowind isn't a MMOG, it won game of the year in large part because of it's wonderful content.
Its hard to draw comparisions between single player games like Morrow wind and multiplayer games (not just mmog's). A single player game would obviously be completely based on a fluid line of content for the player to progress through, thats all there is...
MMO's however have to facter in several other aspects of gameplay. To compete with todays market you have to have a thriving economy, you'd better have a damn good crafting system, and PVP is becoming a must. Then... you have to balance all that content as well as keep tabs on security and bugs.... this is all just the tip of the iceberg.
So... as you can imagine the cost of developing/maintaining a MMOG far outweighs the cost of a single player game. Comparing the 2 is like comparing apples to ora... wait no its more like comparing a combustible engine to a screw driver.
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Korthyn
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Posted - 2004.01.14 17:48:00 -
[9]
And... i'm not saying that mmo's shouldn't have loads of content for players to enjoy. It just takes more time and money for them to create that content. Everquest is full of content, but it is also over 5 years old now.
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Atar
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Posted - 2004.01.14 17:54:00 -
[10]
100% AGREE!
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Atrioss
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Posted - 2004.01.14 18:01:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Atrioss on 14/01/2004 18:05:45
I agree with you, Korthyn. There is a delicate balance that must be achieved when introducing content into a MMOG. I wonder if there are boundries to the dynamacism of content that can be included in MMOGs as compared to that of single player games?
I've often though that there is.
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Shakaar
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Posted - 2004.01.14 18:06:00 -
[12]
Exactly what i thought an MMO game should be...
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Asharee Intrefer
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Posted - 2004.01.14 18:09:00 -
[13]
I can't completely agree with the quote. I think a good MMO should be both a good gaming experience and at the same time leave it open for the players to have some influence on the game world. I can't see the point of having a persistent MMO world if it wouldn't be open for players' influence. I think the reviewers metaphoric playground should be replaced with a big box of building blocks, ready to be put together to create a personal game experience.
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scouting
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Posted - 2004.01.14 18:16:00 -
[14]
"you've forgotten why people play games in the first place -- to have experiences, to challenge themselves"
im getting all that without content...
which, surprisingly enough, is why i still play eve
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Last nights patch, was, without doubt, the worst ever. Rest assured that I was on the forum within minutes registering my disgust throughout the world. |
Korthyn
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Posted - 2004.01.14 18:25:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Korthyn on 14/01/2004 18:30:07
Quote:
Edited by: Atrioss on 14/01/2004 18:05:45
I agree with you, Korthyn. There is a delicate balance that must be achieved when introducing content into a MMOG. I wonder if there are boundries to the dynamacism of content that can be included in MMOGs as compared to that of single player games?
I've often though that there is.
Content in an MMO can be just as (if not more) dynamic as it can be in single player games. The trouble comes when analyzing all the possible situations that players can do with the content. If a player finds an exploit to gain exp at no risk at an incredibly fast rate in a single player game, who cares he's just ruining his own experience and essentially wasting his money.
Now... apply the same scenario to a MMOG and you've got a serious problem, now not only is that customer ruining his experience of the game, he's also unbalancing the playing field for everyone else on that server/world. When bugs/exploits get released to the masses... chaos ensues.
As an example... I play everquest (i say play because i'm still wheening my addiction to that damn game) on the xev server. A few months back a bug was introduced to the game that basically consisted of a certain mob dropping about 10,000 times as much money as it should have.
It was in the game for probably about 16 hours... in that time quite a few people became aware of it and exploited the crap out of it. In just 16 hours the economy of the server was completely ruined, it took the Dev's about a week to get it back to being reasonably restored. They never were able to get rid of all the "tainted" money.
Thats just one trivial example of how a misplaced zero can crush an online game. The stakes are high and your customers expect a lot more from you when they are paying 12 bucks a month or more to play your game.
At the same time however... the possibilities for the types of content you can have in a MMOG are greatly increased as well. There are so many more dynamics to these games than single player games that the possibilities are just endless.
In the end... it really all comes down to time and money. How much time will it take to create and add secure enjoyable content, and how much money can they expect to bring in as a result of those expenses.
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.01.14 19:54:00 -
[16]
disagree. MMOs are only fun when ur only an ant ;) especialy when ur one of those big red ants that beat the crap out of the little black ones...
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2004.01.14 20:01:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Its hard to draw comparisions between single player games like Morrow wind and multiplayer games (not just mmog's). A single player game would obviously be completely based on a fluid line of content for the player to progress through, thats all there is...
ehh ? Morrowind's probably the most free-form RPG in a long time .. its entirely up to the player where he goes and what he does  (you dont even have to do the main plot at all) they literally dump you off a boat onto an Island with 20-30 settlements, roaming monsters, dungeons and a couple thousand npc's all over and leave it to the player to decide whats fun
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-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.14 20:24:00 -
[18]
Content isn't the problem. Eve can work in it's current state with the addition of something it severely lacks:
Goals
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Artean
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Posted - 2004.01.14 20:30:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Content isn't the problem. Eve can work in it's current state with the addition of something it severely lacks:
Goals
Indeed. Though, not too seldom u see mmoprg players agrue goal=content.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.14 21:02:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Quote:
Content isn't the problem. Eve can work in it's current state with the addition of something it severely lacks:
Goals
Indeed. Though, not too seldom u see mmoprg players agrue goal=content.
Well Eve's game mechnics work against 'standard' content. They can't make some huge multilevel dungeon. Most they can do with a space setup is provide random encounters. Given the NPC AI, that would get stale rather quickly without a severe overhaul.
But with this setting what would work is providing goals for the individual, the corporation and the faction players. The lacking content would be created by people getting into each other's way.
Right now people fight for the sake of fighting. They earn isk for the sake of earning isk. But there's no tangible goal. And that bores people quickly.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Relic
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Posted - 2004.01.14 21:35:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Right now people fight for the sake of fighting. They earn isk for the sake of earning isk. But there's no tangible goal. And that bores people quickly.
At the moment we are heading towards the same goal as many such games - the complete replacement of all our equipment because the new equipment is 10%-30% better than the old equipment. The problem with this long term is that players see no net game and can only look forward to doing all again at some stage in the future.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.14 21:54:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Quote:
Right now people fight for the sake of fighting. They earn isk for the sake of earning isk. But there's no tangible goal. And that bores people quickly.
At the moment we are heading towards the same goal as many such games - the complete replacement of all our equipment because the new equipment is 10%-30% better than the old equipment. The problem with this long term is that players see no net game and can only look forward to doing all again at some stage in the future.
There's a difference from other games though. In other games you have to replace your equipment in order to progress. And you have to progress in order to see more of the game world and interact more with both it and other players.
Climbing the level ladder in EQ or AO opens up more opportunities for the player. The equipment is just a means to get there and determines how effective you are when you do get there.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Riffix
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Posted - 2004.01.14 22:02:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Well Eve's game mechnics work against 'standard' content. They can't make some huge multilevel dungeon. Most they can do with a space setup is provide random encounters. Given the NPC AI, that would get stale rather quickly without a severe overhaul.
But with this setting what would work is providing goals for the individual, the corporation and the faction players. The lacking content would be created by people getting into each other's way.
Right now people fight for the sake of fighting. They earn isk for the sake of earning isk. But there's no tangible goal. And that bores people quickly.
Jash has a very good point about the goals. A couple others have hit the right idea with the player content too. An MMORPG has to be huge and as dynamic as possible. The more scripted content a dev company adds, the less dynamic the world gets.
The problem is not that players have too great of a role in the content creation of the game, the problem is they don't have enough. Players need to be able to have a HUGE impact on the world and what does exist in the world should react accordingly.
"Lead, follow, or get the #@$@#$ out of the way" |
Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.14 22:19:00 -
[24]
Content shouldn't be confused with a linear plot line.
Content means just that. Shortly after eve was released the devs homoginzed the entire universe. Essentially every .5 sector was the same as any other .5 sector.
While although its a large universe. How many .3 sectors do you have to go to before you get the very real idea that you're not really seeing anything different.
As it stands they have a few POIs (points of interest) more than at release. These are a good example of content. Agent missions are also an example.
Making the faction system work would be yet another example and then having consequences for factions further expands that content.
The original post/quote is spot on. This games' content could have been 'brainstormed' in about 15 minutes by 4 guys sitting around a table eating pizza.
What eve has failed to do is bring anything unique to the table as far as experience. Most everything about eve is a slight variation of something others have done already.
Having goals is fine. However if they simply give everyone the goal of reaching 1000 completed missions, who really cares. It's the content in getting there that keeps one interested.
Right now I have a goal to beat every game number of freecell. Does that mean I play it as much as eve? Of course not. Eve has more content than freecell.
As for the player created content; If what is in-game now is any indication of players' willingness or ability to create it, then one could safely assume it's a failure of an idea.
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Wenchy
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Posted - 2004.01.14 22:56:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Heh the leaked copy of WoW alpha ive seen is lacking in content (no mobs). Still its nice to have a wander around the world and get a look at whats to come. Looking good from what ive seen so far, hopefully the fact its been leaked will help speed the beta process up. Afteral its just a matter of time before the leaked version gets updated.
I hate to break this to you but the leaked WoW alpha and the this stormfcraft emulator drivel is just a waste of time you will see nothing of the game except for the maps as it can do nothing else so if you get your rocks off wandering around vast unfinished maps alone then fill your boots
and if anything it will slow the change to beta as blizzard will be rethinking its stance on things based soley on that fact that people ahve leaked it and code will be changed to stop these emulators from working
think back to all the previous beta's and stuff
diablo
diablo 2
warcraft
all were delayed because of tards like this
my 2 cents
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Ayar Cachi
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Posted - 2004.01.14 23:08:00 -
[26]
Holy cow, the WoW are just so wrong. Guess I won't be playing that one.
Quote:
One of the biggest issues with the current generation of MMOs isn't technological, it's philosophical.
Clearly their philosophy doesn't agree with mine...and they even explain why:
Quote:
An MMO is a game, not a social experiment. Creating a huge arena and expecting the players to generate all your content
The reason I play Eve is because I want *other players* to provide the content instead of some stupid AI, a plot I don't care about, and other worthless challenges. Player driven, player driven, player driven.
Quote:
means you've forgotten why people play games in the first place -- to have experiences,
Yes, and in the case of MMOG that are with, due to, and at the expense of other human players.
Looks like they are mixing up solo games and MM online games. Silly rabbits....
Quote:
to challenge themselves.
Yes, against other players.
Quote:
To extend the metaphor, MMOs should be a theme park -- not a playground.
Wow, is this ever wrong, wrong, wrong.
I want the game designers to build the Playground Equipment. I don't want them providing the kids! Give us the stuff, we'll figure out how to use it, keep it, work together on it, fight over it, etc.
Well, they can provide a few fake kids to aid the 'feel' of the playground. But I already know they won't be the interesting ones.
The designers provide the *milieu*, the humans in the MMOG provide the characters, stories, content, vast bulk of the challenges, and all the actual multi-player stuff.
Themepark? What a bunch of morons.
Yeah, I came to watch other people get on the roller coaster and the give it a try myself. NOT!
I came to fight over who gets to swing next, who pushes who next, who rules the jungle gym, help my buds rule the jungle gym, and see what other kids are doing.
Good to know WoW is so out of touch with what I want. Still can't get over that stupid themepark thing. Gezzus.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.14 23:33:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Holy cow, the WoW are just so wrong. Guess I won't be playing that one.
...
Good to know WoW is so out of touch with what I want. Still can't get over that stupid themepark thing. Gezzus.
Meh...seems like you don't want to acknowledge one of Eve's flaws: lack of focus.
I'm not saying that a game should be nothing but static content. But it does help to provide people with a tangible focus. It's difficult to maintain a focus on mining/rat farming/agent running day after day to prepare for the off chance that someone might attack you one day.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.01.14 23:52:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Quote:
Holy cow, the WoW are just so wrong. Guess I won't be playing that one.
...
Good to know WoW is so out of touch with what I want. Still can't get over that stupid themepark thing. Gezzus.
Meh...seems like you don't want to acknowledge one of Eve's flaws: lack of focus.
I'm not saying that a game should be nothing but static content. But it does help to provide people with a tangible focus. It's difficult to maintain a focus on mining/rat farming/agent running day after day to prepare for the off chance that someone might attack you one day.
True. I'm not saying I 100% agree with the whole quote, but it has a good point--while of course players are going to generate "content" with in-game politics, guilds, and whatnot, you cannot expect that to be all. There has to be an underlying reason for those things to happen.
If you read the preview at GameSpy, it gives good insight into what Blizzard is doing to give players that reason. It's a good read, and I'd recommend doing so. Even though I don't plan on getting WoW, it is an interesting look into what many upcoming MMORPGs are going to be focusing on, rather than what most of the current generation are: a huge social experiment.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.15 00:23:00 -
[29]
Quote:
I came to fight over who gets to swing next, who pushes who next, who rules the jungle gym, help my buds rule the jungle gym, and see what other kids are doing.
Yeah but you aren't doing that. Nor are many others. There in lies the problem with 'player created' content.
Players are supposed to be driving the universe however the biggest impact another player has had on my gaming experience is jumping around gate to gate trying to catch and kill him. Or causing me to setup insta bookmarks to avoid overwhelming odds. WOOT!!
The RPG portion is hit and miss. The effect players have on the actual form and function of the universe is squat.
So I think CCP ought to do something (including adding content) to make this a game more than a glorified chat room.
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Riffix
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Posted - 2004.01.15 00:36:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Riffix on 15/01/2004 00:39:43
Quote:
Content shouldn't be confused with a linear plot line.
Content means just that. Shortly after eve was released the devs homoginzed the entire universe. Essentially every .5 sector was the same as any other .5 sector...
...As for the player created content; If what is in-game now is any indication of players' willingness or ability to create it, then one could safely assume it's a failure of an idea.
I wouldn't say it's a failure of an idea, more like failure of implementation. I say this because the players really don't get to create much content. We are very free to do what we want in terms of where we go, what we mine, what we buy/sell, or who we kill.
However, we can't do things that REALLY impact other players, thus giving them content. We can't, for example, emabargo a system or attack supply lines to cause changes in market prices. We can't, for example, directly help an Empire goverment to the point where others must help their Empire in order to balance the affects. We can't, for example, fight a war against an NPC corp and wipe them from the galaxy.
We can't, for example, actually engineer ships/weapons/devices to our own specifications and sell them or use them. We can't, for example, join Concord.
Like I said, good idea, bad implementation. You are also right about the sectors being very similar. Perhaps when we start having POS stuff we will be able to establish borders and maybe areas of space actually will be different for player-driven reasons.
Edit: I didn't see your last post before I posted this one, obviously we agree on much of the same.
"Lead, follow, or get the #@$@#$ out of the way" |
IZON
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Posted - 2004.01.15 00:45:00 -
[31]
Edited by: IZON on 15/01/2004 00:46:53
The astute amongst us have sensed this for some time, and it goes some way to explain why some pvp elements in eve are poor. For example, the markets in many regions are practically stagnant, this should have a much higher degree of NPC control, determined traders are having to make 80 gate round trips to monitor them (whilst the demands of some regions never seem to reflect what they actually need.  ) There needs to be a tool (a Business skill perhaps?) to integrate the 'entire' market. If a trader spots an opportunity 50 jumps away he can atleast 'attempt' to satisfy the demand atm we're literally flying around in the dark, 'hoping to stumble' on a demand.
That's a great quote Ronyo, but I fear it's far too late in the day for even CCP to take them onboard. Like my film tutor always said 'KISS' (Keep It Simple Stupid)
"...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!" |
Sankari Kinoi
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:21:00 -
[32]
The problem is, we (players) really do not know what we really want. We ask for things without thinking of the setbacks to the game or players.
EQ was it's finest (argue all you want, i loved the old - pre-expansion - game), where the old EQ team (and later the "vision" to try and get it back on track) told us what we wanted, regardless of the compliants.
I'm holding fire on CCP for a while yet.
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Antimater
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:31:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Antimater on 15/01/2004 01:33:55
Im sorry..i am adverse to using any profanities within the eve community...but that really is a load of BOLLOX!
Let me see...
1) Jas, i want you to play this game here, its not dynamic, evolving or supports user input into the world we've created...
Or
2) Jas, here is a game where we provide a background, and a framework, for you to build upon and develop, in the hope that we can better provide an environment that both evolves and develops with the gamer, and provides a third person view of the environment which many development teams lack...user feed back!
BANZI...PLACE BET NOW!
..
..
..
BETTING END...
IF YOU SAID 1...YOU WRONG!
what a load of crap! (does get to me at all)
disclamer: this post is in response to the artical...not the thread poster..hehe
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johnathan
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:34:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Heh the leaked copy of WoW alpha ive seen is lacking in content (no mobs). Still its nice to have a wander around the world and get a look at whats to come. Looking good from what ive seen so far, hopefully the fact its been leaked will help speed the beta process up. Afteral its just a matter of time before the leaked version gets updated.
Neamus whos to care about the haxor'd version of w.o.w its due out this summer and beta signups are at the end of the month for example iv already got my copy reserved
at eb who says its due out june 16 or so
Bad command or filename. Go stand in the corner.
Programmer: An ingenious device that converts caffeine into code.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.01.15 01:39:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Like I said, good idea, bad implementation. You are also right about the sectors being very similar. Perhaps when we start having POS stuff we will be able to establish borders and maybe areas of space actually will be different for player-driven reasons.
Yes I think that is why so many people still stick with eve. They see the potential there.
Remember when m0o was blockading mara/passari? How cool would it have been to see the demand for goods in those sectors go through the roof. Just waiting for those intrepid indy pilots to deliver them from the grasps of starvation.
Personally I've been playing alot more NWN since their release of HOU expansion. It above anything else I've played is the extreme of player driven content (although not an MMOG).
TBH Rif I think most of the playerbase of eve has similar viewpoints as you and I, heck even Jash and I may find common ground on this one
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.01.15 03:02:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Ronyo Dae'Loki on 15/01/2004 03:05:15
Edited by: Ronyo Dae'Loki on 15/01/2004 03:03:42
Quote:
Yes I think that is why so many people still stick with eve. They see the potential there.
Bingo.
Why do so many people play Eve?
Well, sure, it's a good game. But there are a lot of problems, of course. The reason people (like me) just stick with Eve isn't so much that it's a really fun game so much as it doesn't suck as much as most of the other MMOs out there!
Eve has a lot of potential. The question about that. The question is can CCP actually capitalize on that potential? Yes, it's getting a bit late after release, but there is still time. Can they present scenarios that, though optional, actually matter?
The scenario agent missions seem to be a start, but to hold people's interest for much longer, something has got to happen--whether it be a war between empires, an invasion by the Jove (or hell, throw the Shivans from FreeSpace2 at us, that'd give all the uber-players a run for their money), or whatever. The point is, something needs to happen, and something needs to make each area different from the other areas (besides whether c0w is camping that particular gate today).
Hematic, you have great ideas: if what players did actually affected the economy, that is content.
Is that player-created content? No. I don't care what anyone says: that'd be CCP-generated content, triggered by players. That is what we need: a blend between things engineered by CCP and triggered by the actions of the players.
Some games grab the players' hands and lead them along, and others (like Eve is right now) give them a huge place to go play in without much in the way of rules or indications on what to do. I think that for Eve to survive with this next generation of MMOs emerging, a balance between the two styles must be obtained--some sort of direction for the game itself, instead of the somewhat aimless wandering occuring at the moment.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Funky Monkey
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Posted - 2004.01.15 03:41:00 -
[37]
Good points all...
But I have absolutely NO faith that CCP will give a rats buttcheeks about what we think... they have their cotorie of "input people" and flog the game to their wants, not the majority as has been evidenced by the dropping numbers. I only hope that the "hard core fanbois" are enough to keep eve alive so they can go on with their ganking fests. |
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