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A habitable Mars

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Dryson Bennington	Posted - 2007.06.16 18:22:00 - [1] I was recently watching a special on The History Channel about Mars and the polar caps. If what is specualated about Mars' poar caps having hydrogen, and the other elements that make water, which when coupled with the process of trees taking in carbon dioxide that produces sugar or energy along with oxygen which every lifeform as we know it needs in order to survive can show that by just taking maybe one hundred tree saplings to Mars planting them close to the close the polar caps may initate the process of producing a breatheable atmosphere like that of Earth. Of course irrigation would have to either be designed and taken to Mars along with some glacial water, why glacial water, because glacial water contains microbes that survive in that type of environment and would help in the growth of the trees. Or irrigation could be designed to melt and would then be pumped from the Martian polar ice/water caps to the roots of the tree. The upside to this expieriment could possibly see the trees grow at a very rapid state given that trees thrive on carbon dioxide and produce oxygen. Perhaps this is why the Redwoods in California grow like they do and are so enormous, they may have been the first trees to clean the atmosphere of CO2 thus making oxygen that other lifeforms grew form. The down side is the PH level of the Martian soil, but the upside to this is when the glacial ice water along with the microbes and the trees interact together the PH level may possibly be changed to suit the needs of the growing trees and microbes. The only way to find out is by conducting the expierement on Mars. Any planetary theorists that would like to expand on this notion, please go ahead. Up out and Beyond
Pwn4ge P4nts Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.16 18:26:00 - [2] Wall of text, but an interesting idea! Bring a bunch of apple trees to Mars, and in a few hundred years colonists will have a breathable atmosphere and apples to boot. Win-win.
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.16 18:27:00 - [3] Whats this got to do with EVE? Arrow Capital Ship Sales
Zhett Haukes Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.16 18:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Phoenix Lord Whats this got to do with EVE? Mars is in space? So is Eve? I think that is about as close as the link gets. On topic, wikipedia has some interesting articles about the colonisation of Mars if you are interested in that kind of think?
Great Artista Purple Cloud	Posted - 2007.06.16 18:45:00 - [5] This is gonna get moved to OOP any minute now... ___________________________________ You can either choose to agree the above, or distribute your own opinions, if you do; please flame, I like making people angry. <3
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.16 18:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Zhett Haukes Originally by: Phoenix Lord Whats this got to do with EVE? Mars is in space? So is Eve? I think that is about as close as the link gets. On topic, wikipedia has some interesting articles about the colonisation of Mars if you are interested in that kind of think? So youre telling me i can post anything that has to do with space in the EVE General Discussion section? Wow, i should start posting about all the other space games i play. Arrow Capital Ship Sales
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.16 18:49:00 - [7] This really doesn't have anything to do with EVE beyond the coincidence that the EVE colonists were trying to terraform planets, and the OP is talking about terraforming of Mars. I want more nitrogen!
Ghast Ley	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:19:00 - [8] dude, ccp has been talking about enhanced planetary interactions for some time now. Atmospheric flight..planetary bases
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:21:00 - [9] if they give us atmospheric flight, i want joystick control so as to avoid the gravity wtfpwning me! Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:25:00 - [10] Unfortunately, the atmosphere composition of Mars is actually one of the smaller problems facing potential colonists. First of all, you've got the insanely low atmospheric pressure. It doesn't matter if you change the CO2 to O2, people are still not going to be able to go outside without space suits. You say that trees would thrive in a martian atmosphere because it's made of CO2. But there's not even much CO2 around either. Another thing is that Mars does not have a protective magnetic field like Earth does. Colonists on the surface would be receiving intolerable amounts of solar radiation. This might be countered by placing an artificial magnetic field around the settlements, but the power consumption would be very high. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Beer is my religion. Guinness is my God.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:29:00 - [11] Interesting but in wrong section i think. Someone else suggested polluting Mars like were doing the Earth, start up a nice greenhouse effect, polar caps will melt and presto, liquid water (and a place to put our heavy polluting industry hehehe) CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
The Pointless Gallente Plastic Toys	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Zhett Haukes Originally by: Phoenix Lord Whats this got to do with EVE? Mars is in space? So's Earth, in case you didn't notice. ----------------------------------------------- "Breaking News! The Pointless hates GIFs!"
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:44:00 - [13] Mmmm, yes so going by his logic. I can talk about ANYTHING i want because it would have to do with earth, which is in space, which is also EVE's setting! :D Arrow Capital Ship Sales
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:45:00 - [14] Originally by: The Pointless Originally by: Zhett Haukes Originally by: Phoenix Lord Whats this got to do with EVE? Mars is in space? So's Earth, in case you didn't notice. LIES! everyone knows the sun revolves around the flat earth!
Cassius Decius	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:45:00 - [15] Why dont we just nuke the poles and melt the darn ice, were gonna frack the planet up as soon as we get there anyway.
Kylegar Caldari The Dark Horses Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:47:00 - [16] Edited by: Kylegar on 16/06/2007 19:52:04 Edited by: Kylegar on 16/06/2007 19:47:56 As was already said, Theres not enough atmospheric pressure to support earthly life on Mars. Right now, your bodies are exposed to an average of 1.01x10^5 Pascals of pressure, witch is alot, Mars is less than 1/10 of that. I read an article in PopSci about Terraforming Mars, and it includes increasing the atmospheric density of Mars to Earth-like levels using the same methods we use now to contribute to Global Warming. Heres that Article, its a good read. http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviationspace/2849488180c30110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:47:00 - [17] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 16/06/2007 19:47:15 Originally by: ReaperOfSly Unfortunately, the atmosphere composition of Mars is actually one of the smaller problems facing potential colonists. First of all, you've got the insanely low atmospheric pressure. It doesn't matter if you change the CO2 to O2, people are still not going to be able to go outside without space suits. You say that trees would thrive in a martian atmosphere because it's made of CO2. But there's not even much CO2 around either. Another thing is that Mars does not have a protective magnetic field like Earth does. Colonists on the surface would be receiving intolerable amounts of solar radiation. This might be countered by placing an artificial magnetic field around the settlements, but the power consumption would be very high. you forgot some points! avg temp of earth is -23C mars is colder the light recieved (and thusly reducing solar radiation as well) is alot lower, day/night cycle is different, 2 smaller moons affect tidal forces alot differently all of which reduce the liklihood of earth evolved vegetation for surviving also, venus looks to be the easier planet to terraform, the atmosphere is denser, we just need to drastically reduce the greenhouse effect and it will likely be livable Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Kylegar Caldari The Dark Horses Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 16/06/2007 19:47:15 Originally by: ReaperOfSly Unfortunately, the atmosphere composition of Mars is actually one of the smaller problems facing potential colonists. First of all, you've got the insanely low atmospheric pressure. It doesn't matter if you change the CO2 to O2, people are still not going to be able to go outside without space suits. You say that trees would thrive in a martian atmosphere because it's made of CO2. But there's not even much CO2 around either. Another thing is that Mars does not have a protective magnetic field like Earth does. Colonists on the surface would be receiving intolerable amounts of solar radiation. This might be countered by placing an artificial magnetic field around the settlements, but the power consumption would be very high. you forgot some points! avg temp of earth is -23C mars is colder the light recieved (and thusly reducing solar radiation as well) is alot lower, day/night cycle is different, 2 smaller moons affect tidal forces alot differently all of which reduce the liklihood of earth evolved vegetation for surviving also, venus looks to be the easier planet to terraform, the atmosphere is denser, we just need to drastically reduce the greenhouse effect and it will likely be livable Technicly speaking, Earth does not recieve enough light to keep it as warm as it is, but out atmosphere is filled with "Greenhouse" gasses, that trap or reflect solar radition and keep our planet warm. The same thing could be done with Mars, but a different mix of gasses would be necissary.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:54:00 - [19] the problem with that is that mars is no longer outgassing at a rate that could keep it livable, thus any build up in the density of atmosphere would have to be artificially maintained until a viable ecosystem is built, which just isnt realistic at this point Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Kylegar Caldari The Dark Horses Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.16 20:00:00 - [20] Im not saying it wouldnt be quick, But it would be fairly simple enough that if we could get there, we could do it. Look at what we are doing to our planet now, and think...with no factory emmision resraints, we could easally put enough carbon-based gasses to pressurize and trap heat on Mars, and making it liveable in the next 1000 years
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.16 20:02:00 - [21] Habitable Mars ain't happening. 1) Atmospheric pressure is WAY too low. 6 millibar. 0.06% as dense as Earth's. You might as well be breathing vaccuum. 85% of the contents of Mars's atmosphere exists within three feet of the ground. 2) No magnetic field. No magfield makes ozone holes look positively benign. You'll be WISHING for ultraviolet rays compared to what you'll get a dose of on Mars. 3) Temps. The average temp, as stated, is about like North Dakota or Siberia. The mid latitudes hit about 80F during the day. Without an atmosphere to retain heat, it drops to -120F by midnight, or colder than it EVER gets on Earth (current low record -117F)
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.16 20:03:00 - [22] sure but how do we maintain that industry in the time it takes to make mars livable? most factories couldnt be run in pressure suits and having a chimeny to release those gasses would generally release the atmosphere too, the logistics of it are more complicated than we could handle while shipping everything we need to run it there Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2007.06.16 20:12:00 - [23] Edited by: ToxicFire on 16/06/2007 20:14:32 Biggest problem also is that mars doesn't have the mass to maintain (ie hold onto) the kind of atmosphere that has been suggested so no matter what you did to generate the atmosphere you couldn't maintain it with the current martian and the only way around that is to increase Martian mass... a not impossible task but very lengthy and costly process where its just simpler to live in self contained biodomes. The really test of our abilities to create a small localize environment that isn't externally supported from earth will come with the first mars mission where the team will most likely have to spend in excess of a year on the surface before both Earth and Martian orbits are at there closest Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.16 22:08:00 - [24] The simplest way to make mars habitable would be to create prefab habitation buildings rather than trying to terraform the entire planet. It would be tricky to get the amount of vegetation in perfect balance with the number of humans living there, but I think it could be done. So you'd have a self-sufficient atmosphere at least. You'd still have to import food, water and batteries though. Maybe there's a way to land these things on mars using unmanned transports. Living conditions would be terrible though. You also have the problem that it would take over a year to get there. In that year, you're almost certainly going to be exposed to some solar flare or coronal mass ejection that would liquify your DNA or something nasty. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Beer is my religion. Guinness is my God.
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes	Posted - 2007.06.16 22:30:00 - [25] ill throw my recomendation into the pot, the mars trilogy (red green and blue mars) by Kim Stanley robinson are a good read on the methodology and ethics of terraforming mars + its filled with natural and unnatural disasters wars politics and the destruction of a space elevator and the mass destruction that could cause (tho the description is scientifically wrong who cares :) ) also he throws in sex to keep the young uns entertained Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Mithfindel Amarr Ordo Crucis Argenteus	Posted - 2007.06.16 22:50:00 - [26] A point considering the Venus comment: I assume you should do something to the fact that "good weather" in Venus means that it's raining acid. Not like "acid rain" on Earth, but in an even more concrete way. And yes, on Mars you'd basically need to build habitat modules (or even underground to help have protection from the elements and radiation). The fact that there's a nominal gas-sphere (not really athmosphere, since it isn't air) doesn't mean that there aren't sandstorms in Mars. Also, the energy needed to melt the polar ice caps is pretty astronomical, so it would likely take a better part of a millennium, anyway. Any power held by the mankind is rather ridiculously small compared to forces of nature. (Though note, when the minute effect is multiplied by six billion, it becomes a bit greater.)
Stegas Tyrano Gallente Delta Omega Iota Inc. Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.16 22:52:00 - [27] Edited by: Stegas Tyrano on 16/06/2007 22:52:17 Originally by: Janu Hull Edited by: Janu Hull on 16/06/2007 20:03:49 Habitable Mars ain't happening. 1) Atmospheric pressure is WAY too low. 6 millibar. 0.06% as dense as Earth's. You might as well be breathing vaccuum. 85% of the contents of Mars's atmosphere exists within three feet of the ground. 2) No magnetic field. No magfield makes ozone holes look positively benign. You'll be WISHING for ultraviolet rays compared to what you'll get a dose of on Mars. 3) Temps. The average temp, as stated, is about like North Dakota or Siberia. The mid latitudes hit about 80F during the day. Without an atmosphere to retain heat, it drops to -120F by midnight, or colder than it EVER gets on Earth (current low record -117F) 4) Surface liquid water virtually unknown. Because of atmospheric pressure, the temperature range in the phase transitions which allow for a liquid state are EXTREMELY narrow. Most of the time, water transitions directly from ice to steam. The boiling point of water in that atmosphere is quite low. Surely if you buried underground and lived there it would be alot easier. There would be more pressure there not sure how much but it would be easier to make up for there being less of it. There would be no UV ......and no other light... solar power up top? Being underground and closer to the mantel will make it warmer. Surface liquid water? does that mean theres water underground. You could use heat from the planet to melt ice..maybe?
Zhett Haukes Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.17 16:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Phoenix Lord Mmmm, yes so going by his logic. I can talk about ANYTHING i want because it would have to do with earth, which is in space, which is also EVE's setting! :D My point was that there was no link between Mars and Eve, but I guess I didn't word it correctly. I was trying to poke harmless fun at the OP for the random post in the Eve-General forums. But never mind.
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.17 17:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Stegas Tyrano Edited by: Stegas Tyrano on 16/06/2007 22:52:17 Originally by: Janu Hull Edited by: Janu Hull on 16/06/2007 20:03:49 Habitable Mars ain't happening. 1) Atmospheric pressure is WAY too low. 6 millibar. 0.06% as dense as Earth's. You might as well be breathing vaccuum. 85% of the contents of Mars's atmosphere exists within three feet of the ground. 2) No magnetic field. No magfield makes ozone holes look positively benign. You'll be WISHING for ultraviolet rays compared to what you'll get a dose of on Mars. 3) Temps. The average temp, as stated, is about like North Dakota or Siberia. The mid latitudes hit about 80F during the day. Without an atmosphere to retain heat, it drops to -120F by midnight, or colder than it EVER gets on Earth (current low record -117F) 4) Surface liquid water virtually unknown. Because of atmospheric pressure, the temperature range in the phase transitions which allow for a liquid state are EXTREMELY narrow. Most of the time, water transitions directly from ice to steam. The boiling point of water in that atmosphere is quite low. Surely if you buried underground and lived there it would be alot easier. There would be more pressure there not sure how much but it would be easier to make up for there being less of it. There would be no UV ......and no other light... solar power up top? Being underground and closer to the mantel will make it warmer. Surface liquid water? does that mean theres water underground. You could use heat from the planet to melt ice..maybe? You're assuming the structure of mars is the same as earth's. It's not true. The reason mars doesn't have a magnetic field is because it doesn't have a liquid core. Mars is just a rock and it doesn't get warmer as you go down. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: F'nog Reaper wins the thread.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.06.17 17:19:00 - [30] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Stegas Tyrano Edited by: Stegas Tyrano on 16/06/2007 22:52:17 Originally by: Janu Hull Edited by: Janu Hull on 16/06/2007 20:03:49 Habitable Mars ain't happening. 1) Atmospheric pressure is WAY too low. 6 millibar. 0.06% as dense as Earth's. You might as well be breathing vaccuum. 85% of the contents of Mars's atmosphere exists within three feet of the ground. 2) No magnetic field. No magfield makes ozone holes look positively benign. You'll be WISHING for ultraviolet rays compared to what you'll get a dose of on Mars. 3) Temps. The average temp, as stated, is about like North Dakota or Siberia. The mid latitudes hit about 80F during the day. Without an atmosphere to retain heat, it drops to -120F by midnight, or colder than it EVER gets on Earth (current low record -117F) 4) Surface liquid water virtually unknown. Because of atmospheric pressure, the temperature range in the phase transitions which allow for a liquid state are EXTREMELY narrow. Most of the time, water transitions directly from ice to steam. The boiling point of water in that atmosphere is quite low. Surely if you buried underground and lived there it would be alot easier. There would be more pressure there not sure how much but it would be easier to make up for there being less of it. There would be no UV ......and no other light... solar power up top? Being underground and closer to the mantel will make it warmer. Surface liquid water? does that mean theres water underground. You could use heat from the planet to melt ice..maybe? You're assuming the structure of mars is the same as earth's. It's not true. The reason mars doesn't have a magnetic field is because it doesn't have a liquid core. Mars is just a rock and it doesn't get warmer as you go down. Living underground is still a decent possibility for living on Mars (or the moon, or any other place we decide to set up camp). A cave is essentially a natural "bio-dome", and 100ft of rock is an excellent natural insulator. Further, it being devoid of any sensible sort of atmosphere, the danger of asteroid strikes is 100 fold (most pebbles being burnt away by earth's hearty atmosphere). A big glass dome would be tragically vulnerable to being pocked full of holes- not so much a nice cosy cave. Bearing in mind that the surface of Mars is pretty much entirely unpleasant (no air, lot's of UV, so on and so forth), there's no real good reason to NOT dig some holes. Providing the rocks are the right kind of rocks, of course... --------

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