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Illyria Ambri
Caldari
RennTech
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Posted - 2007.06.16 19:56:00 -
[1]
Too many capital ships already..
Give us small (drone sized) fast attack fighters that can target individual modules on enemy ships.
Sure it may be considered "twitch" gameplay but it might alleviate some of the lag if alot of people started using them for surgical strikes. Less capital ships to render and vastly smaller weapons effects.
You could get small gangs that could take on individual ships and target modules after the shields are down. Take out the weapons or "shield generators" modules or go for the weapons or the power systems. Maybe have a skill for targeting so it takes some skill to knock out the power modules. Imo taking out the power modules would be the fastest way to disable a ship but it needs to be alot harder to kill the power then the turrets since the power in internal and harder to target then individual weapons hardpoints.
The larger the ship the more HP each module has so its not identically easy to kill a dread weapon module as it is a frigate's.
Make them carrier dock able.
1 fighter cannot be allowed to take down a frigate.. you should need at least 2 or 3 fighters to take down a frigate and an increase in numbers the higher up the food chain you go.
Would make smaller ships a necessity causing less lag with the decrease in capitals and effects
Make only 1 ship type able to warp/scram but only frigates.. requires 2 for a cruiser, 3 for a BC and so on as you get higher.
Maybe a light, medium and heavy fighters with the associated speed/firepower limits by type.
They have to be killable by frigates and small sized guns/missiles but still be a challenge in numbers small groups of 3 so its not an instant slaughter for either side. balanced against frigates so either side could win in a 1v3 battle making it come down to skills for the frigate being able to target and hit the fighters and the fighters being able to chew up his shields fast enough to get at the modules inside.
With the addition of heat perhaps when targeting modules they help overload them to destroy them.
Maybe they do EM damage against shields and thermal damage to modules causing them to go into overload. So the risk is you help increase the enemy's firepower against you while your trying to destroy them. So you would need either numbers for more damage to take out the modules faster or better skills to target the more important modules like shields, PDU's, PDS, boosters etc.
Not sure how to handle the end game if the fighters win.. they should be module killers.. not necessarily ship killers.. so it requires another frigate or equal ship to actually kill the armor and hull to pop the ship. Maybe make it so the fighters can only disable and neuter ships but not destroy them without at least 10+ to kill a frigate. However destroying the modules has to be the better option then destroying the frigate outright if you do have the numbers.
Thoughts?
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This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.16 19:58:00 -
[2]
its not rendering the ships that causes the lag, for the most part its the sheer ammount of data for the combat simulation, equal sized fleets of frigates will lag the same as an equal sized fleet of dreads for the most part
Real turtles tank armor.
Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon!
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Clorthos
Gallente
Tau Ceti Global Production
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.06.16 20:28:00 -
[3]
lag got a upgrade in the game when they added fleet command, and wing commander bounues. Too much information to process for large groups per round of combat.
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Illyria Ambri
Caldari
RennTech
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Posted - 2007.06.16 21:22:00 -
[4]
So it wont necessarily improve lag in the network standpoint but it will in the individual clients rendering the ships and effects as I stated
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This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
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T'sar
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Posted - 2007.06.16 21:30:00 -
[5]
Not to be mr negative, but have fun with those smartbombs
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Sc0rpion
Archer Daniels Midland
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Posted - 2007.06.16 21:46:00 -
[6]
I fail to see how that would help.
No matter how big or small your ships might be, they are still rendered with textures (which do not scale). A 24 bit 1024x1024 image still has to be decompressed to it's full ~3MB. And god forbid if you want to start adding bumpmaps, alpha maps and who knows what else, which unlike the actual texture maps, pretty much have to be unique to each ship.
Now multiply that by 400 people on 1 grid.
Then there's that huge ~20MB overhead for the skybox that there's no real way to avoid.
And it all has to be calculated and drawn something like 60 times per second.
The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
Killmails are for pooftas. |
Edania
Caldari
Ordo Adeptus Astartes
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Posted - 2007.06.16 22:00:00 -
[7]
in regards to weapons effects which seems to be the thing you try to sell the idea on small rapid fireing weapons are more of an issue than slow fireing big ones and as has been mentioned 100 small ships is just as bad for lag as lots of big ships you still need position, velocity and hundredsof other live stats per object in space.
next we have fighters so your discusion confuses me as i keep fitting in your definition of fighters around my own.
but helping heat along seems pointless to me at the mo we ran a full rack of a nighthawks weapons at overload it took some 40 seconds before modules nearly blew up i doubt that any pilot will have time to respond to a weapon system overheating and bring guns to bear before it damn well blows itself up
your IC explanation about thermal damage to a module to help along heat boarders on ludicrous if you can breach a shield and hit a module you want to DESTROY it not help along an exotic build up of energy so it can hurt itself thats the star trek way not the sane way.
using a skill base to attack more important modules is a slightly better idea tho critical systems such as shielding and propulsion are not modules specifically in a fight i would like to disable in descending order of importance weapons, warp capability, defences any other poor sod that gets in my way so modifying that idea to accomplish that is more tempting to me.
you want to field 10 player controled ships to destroy a singular frigate? frigates are irrelevant to use 10 to take one down means each of your fighters must cost infinitesimally small amounts of ISK
 Quote:
my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
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Illyria Ambri
Caldari
RennTech
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Posted - 2007.06.16 22:08:00 -
[8]
Smartbombs could be an issue yes.. but not everyone carries smartbombs on them all the time.. so it would be an added risk. I'm not thinking 100+mill per fighter.. I'm thinking more along the lines of frigate costs. Something that can be easily replaced.
Remember this is for small roving gangs of fighters to take on 1 or 2 small ships at a time or for fleet pvp where they go after specific ships.. most likely those ships wont be carrying smartbombs. If they are.. the fighters have 2 chocies.. keep trying to attack and die.. or run away/change targets. Its a risk of flying such a small but special ship
Are smartbombs effected by the speed of whatevers in their AOE? Do they have a missle type explosion radius that can be defeated with a fast ship such as a fighter?.
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This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
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Illyria Ambri
Caldari
RennTech
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Posted - 2007.06.16 22:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sc0rpion
I fail to see how that would help.
No matter how big or small your ships might be, they are still rendered with textures (which do not scale). A 24 bit 1024x1024 image still has to be decompressed to it's full ~3MB. And god forbid if you want to start adding bumpmaps, alpha maps and who knows what else, which unlike the actual texture maps, pretty much have to be unique to each ship.
Now multiply that by 400 people on 1 grid.
Then there's that huge ~20MB overhead for the skybox that there's no real way to avoid.
And it all has to be calculated and drawn something like 60 times per second.
Ok fine.. so it wont do **** for lag.. very well.. you can stop dwelling on that single point and discuss the others now.
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This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
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Illyria Ambri
Caldari
RennTech
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Posted - 2007.06.16 22:33:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Illyria Ambri on 16/06/2007 22:33:10
Originally by: Edania
but helping heat along seems pointless to me at the mo we ran a full rack of a nighthawks weapons at overload it took some 40 seconds before modules nearly blew up i doubt that any pilot will have time to respond to a weapon system overheating and bring guns to bear before it damn well blows itself up
your IC explanation about thermal damage to a module to help along heat boarders on ludicrous if you can breach a shield and hit a module you want to DESTROY it not help along an exotic build up of energy so it can hurt itself thats the star trek way not the sane way.
This was typed using the possibilities of the in-game and soon to be ingame features as an idea.. you don't need to get all ****y and uptight about it.
As I was saying.. using either the heat or overload of modules to distroy them would be based on soon to be included system. Yes it would need tweaks.. I'm sorry (not really) for not spelling out every single little thing to you in exact detail with perfectly balanced options based on information and game play that hasn't been included yet.
Originally by: Edania
using a skill base to attack more important modules is a slightly better idea tho critical systems such as shielding and propulsion are not modules specifically in a fight i would like to disable in descending order of importance weapons, warp capability, defences any other poor sod that gets in my way so modifying that idea to accomplish that is more tempting to me.
As I said.. the way the fighters attack and how they damage would need to be examined and tweaked. But yes skill based would be necessary. You wouldn't want a lvl 1 "module targeter" to be able to take out the PDU's on your battleship quite as easily as they could take out the weapons. Other then skills I'm not sure how to force it so every newb with the skill cannot run around taking out ppls power and leaving them there. They have to go through more vulnerable modules first.
Originally by: Edania
you want to field 10 player controled ships to destroy a singular frigate? frigates are irrelevant to use 10 to take one down means each of your fighters must cost infinitesimally small amounts of ISK
No what I said is it would have to be balanced using frigates as a model being as they are the smallest fighting ship and would be, along with distroyers, the anti-fighter ships. So frgiates have to be able to destroy them but not be able to 1 or even 2 shot them. They must be able to hold their own against a frigate but still be distroyed by 1.
You have to picture it in your head..
1 frigate vs 3 fighters... needs to be an even match. Either side could win which is where the skills comes in. If the frigate pilot can successfully target and kill the fighters before the fighters whittle away the shields and get to the modules. The higher the fighters skill the more damage they do and depending on a possible module target skill lvl.. they can go for weapons only or the better modules that are equiped.
1 frigate vs 5+ fighters.. frigate may have a chance but favor is for the fighters.
1 frigate vs 10 or more fighters.. frigate has to die.
As you get to cruiser lvl yes you will need more fighters. can a single fighter take out a battleship? Hell no.. can 10? Sure if you got a few hours.
It would require the use of a frigate or larger sized ship to kill the anything larger then cruisers.
Anything smaller then a cruiser.. swarms of fighters can kill.
Anything larger then a cruiser.. fighters can only disable shields and modules. This would reguire fleets to dedicate some ships to anti-fighter support or they need to give up a slot for a smartbomb.
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This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
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Mithfindel
Amarr
Ordo Crucis Argenteus
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Posted - 2007.06.16 22:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Clorthos
lag got a upgrade in the game when they added fleet command, and wing commander bounues. Too much information to process for large groups per round of combat.
It is worth to note that before the fleet structure, every gang member could give the gang bonuses with his leadership skills, so actually the fleets did remove overhead.
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Edania
Caldari
Ordo Adeptus Astartes
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Posted - 2007.06.16 22:44:00 -
[12]
1 merlin =250K has one pilot and thats an expensive frigate
you wish to use 2 people at least to kill him in ships that have to be worth less than 125K or your throwing ISK away by all means do that to me, i can afford to lose two hundred of them a day a frigate is irrelevent and your proposing somthing more than doubly irrelevent.
if i engage a BS worth 100 mill with 2 BCs worth 50 each i need to garuntee that the enemy dies for 1 loss or less or that everyone lives as its not economical to comit greater rescources to destroy a lesser target
Quote:
my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
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Illyria Ambri
Caldari
RennTech
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Posted - 2007.06.16 22:44:00 -
[13]
As for how the modules are taken out.. Has yet to be seen.. the heat/overload idea was simply an idea for doing it.
Sure you can train to lvl 1 module targeting and go attack ppl.. start hitting their guns and the risk of you neutering their ability to shoot at you is that they can temporarily get better at it while you are doing it. So you either need good skill to take weapons out fast or more ppl.
If you have the skill for modules you can bypass their weapons and go for the more important systems like power relays, damage mods, or whatever you think would be more benificial to disable.
In a fleet battle a dozen or more fighters could neuter a command ship eventually but not distroy it. Thats for the rest of the fleet to do. But they can target (assuming they got the skill) the command links and warfare mods, thus disabling the ship while the rest of the fleet takes out their own targets.. If you take out the power systems they pilot wont be able to run their weapons or remaining modules. If they are scramed so the ship cannot escape they can either abandon ship and pod out or wait till it gets popped then pod out, or self distruct and pod out.
I have yet to figure out how to address armor tankers since fighters shouldnt have the ability to do a full 100% of armor damage. Though just having to get through shields and not armor would be a boon for shield tankers but rather crappy for armor tankers.
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This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
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Esurnir
Amarr
Bears Inc
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.16 22:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mithfindel
Originally by: Clorthos
lag got a upgrade in the game when they added fleet command, and wing commander bounues. Too much information to process for large groups per round of combat.
It is worth to note that before the fleet structure, every gang member could give the gang bonuses with his leadership skills, so actually the fleets did remove overhead.
Bonus which each time a member gone in and out of the system would have to be recalculated (recalculation mean : comparing everyones skill with everyone else, for each different leadership skill)
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Quote:
Thou shall pew pew.
Book of Revelation 12, 51 |
Illyria Ambri
Caldari
RennTech
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Posted - 2007.06.17 03:16:00 -
[15]
Either way the lag would either improve or stay the same.
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This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
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