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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.15 22:32:00 -
[1]
I keep seeing various opinions from different people on this topic. Some say rails are awesome...others say they blow chunks. I use rails and can't say I am overly impressed with them but then I don't have much experience using other weapon types yet so I'm not really in a position to say. Jsut what I notice from the damage other mates seem to dish out with presumably equivalent weapons.
So which is it?
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Atrioss
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Posted - 2004.01.15 22:43:00 -
[2]
You know what's funny? If you work in an office building where there is a nice, long hallway or corridor, and screaming at the top of your lungs, "THEY BLOW CHUNKS!!!". The echo effect can be quite entertaining.
But anyhow, your effectiveness with a given weapon set will be dependent on how well trained you are in a variety of skills. I don't imagine that there woul be one weapon in the group of 'small' class weapons which would be extremely more powerful, right out of the box.
Thenh again, maybe there is, and perhaps the training for that weapon simply takes longer.
Can someone clarify?
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.15 22:44:00 -
[3]
Railguns are supposed to have a lot of range, but the truth is projectiles have better range and do more damage, and they have way better ammo choices and use no cap, so why use railguns?
Railguns are just dead average guns, they're outclassed by projectiles. On a Megathron/Dominix, 425mm railguns are probably worth it due to the DMG bonus, for any other ship don't bother..
As far as cruisers go, the 250mm railgun is pretty decent, try to get some 250mm prototype gauss guns, theyre excellent guns.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Homo Erectus
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Posted - 2004.01.15 23:09:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Homo Erectus on 15/01/2004 23:11:06
On my scorp or raven, in long range battles(say 70km+), I am able to pump out more damage than any other gun per second. Using anti l on npc's from 90km is also nice. |
Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2004.01.15 23:10:00 -
[5]
moved to Ships & Modules
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
Atrioss
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Posted - 2004.01.15 23:11:00 -
[6]
Are you talking about using rail guns, or another weapon type?
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Homo Erectus
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Posted - 2004.01.15 23:18:00 -
[7]
Isn't the topic on rails? |
Lansfear
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Posted - 2004.01.15 23:26:00 -
[8]
 Quote:
Edited by: Homo Erectus on 15/01/2004 23:11:06
On my scorp or raven, in long range battles(say 70km+), I am able to pump out more damage than any other gun per second. Using anti l on npc's from 90km is also nice.
I can hardly get iridium to hit at 90km, how on earth are you getting antimater to hit decient even past 40km!?!
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Ayar Cachi
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Posted - 2004.01.16 00:37:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ayar Cachi on 16/01/2004 00:38:00
Quote:
Quote:
On my scorp or raven, in long range battles(say 70km+), I am able to pump out more damage than any other gun per second. Using anti l on npc's from 90km is also nice.
I can hardly get iridium to hit at 90km, how on earth are you getting antimater to hit decient even past 40km!?!
Not sure, but it sounds like Homo is talking about 425mm Rails on his Battleships and you are talking about something like 250mm rails (mediums) ??
At least, on my Battleships 425mm hit out to 90km + a bit. I tend to use Plutonium or Uranium Large ammo, though, so I'm hitting as much as I do at, say, around 60km (my fav range for the 425mm :).
On my Thorax, 250mm hit out to 50km with Plutonium/Uranium. Similar issue though, I'd prefer to sit around 40km with 250mm. Corp mate of mine uses 250mms in his Moa with Iridium and likes 45-48km apparently.
Of course on my real Thorax set up, it's all anode neutrons and knife fights. :)
Anyway, that could that be the diff?
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.16 02:52:00 -
[10]
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Homo Erectus on 15/01/2004 23:11:06
On my scorp or raven, in long range battles(say 70km+), I am able to pump out more damage than any other gun per second. Using anti l on npc's from 90km is also nice.
I can hardly get iridium to hit at 90km, how on earth are you getting antimater to hit decient even past 40km!?!
Easy.
Do it on Caldari ships.
I get an optimum of 37km with antimatter on a Scorpion, and there is still room in my skills to push it up. I get consistent hits with antimatter all the way to 50km, and with thorium from 70-75km.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Lansfear
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Posted - 2004.01.16 03:13:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Lansfear on 16/01/2004 03:21:04
I'm talking about 425mm rails, not 250mm.
Optimal for me is near 32 km with antimater. There can't be any amount of skills or gear that can raise that near triple to reach 90km.
If so please prove me wrong and post how here! I'd love to know how.
BTW, 425mm still suck.
edit: Just to make sure, i'm still refering to 425mm rails and antimater ammo.
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Prodigious
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Posted - 2004.01.16 03:16:00 -
[12]
heh.. projectiles all the way. but it's all relative to the skills that uve trained
small, med and large projectiles are all awesome.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.16 03:33:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Edited by: Lansfear on 16/01/2004 03:21:04
I'm talking about 425mm rails, not 250mm.
Optimal for me is near 32 km with antimater. There can't be any amount of skills or gear that can raise that near triple to reach 90km.
If so please prove me wrong and post how here! I'd love to know how.
BTW, 425mm still suck.
edit: Just to make sure, i'm still refering to 425mm rails and antimater ammo.
Yes I am referring to 425 rails.
Remember, Caldari ships have range bonus. They do let you use antimatter near the 40km range, which you can boost further with skills, tracking enhancers and tracking computers.
I don't know where anyone said you can push antimatter past 90km. But with Caldari range skills you can do that with Iridium or Iron.
With Iridium and Caldari range bonuses, I can hit targets at 30km with a Neutron Blaster.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Lansfear
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Posted - 2004.01.16 04:10:00 -
[14]
Posted by Homo Erectus
Quote:
Using anti l on npc's from 90km is also nice.
This is why I ask. I'm just curious on how it's done. If I'm reading this right, he's saying he's using antimater on npc's at 90km.
If I read this wrong ignore me and move on.
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Ayar Cachi
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Posted - 2004.01.16 04:41:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Ayar Cachi on 16/01/2004 05:08:04
Edited by: Ayar Cachi on 16/01/2004 04:55:41
Took an opportunity that came up on a mission to take a screenie.
425mm with plutonium/uranium at 94-90km
This is about typical for me at this range. I have no idea what ppl are expecting, so I figure to provide this and let ppl decide for each themselves :)
Certainly not optimal of course...like I said, I prefer to be a tad closer :) Wouldn't be surprised with better results with Iridium, but I don't ever use the stuff. Same for aforementioned Caldari ships (they smell bad), which might help matters too.
Um, there were more ships, but they died at bit over 90km, before I pushed the printscreen key :) Yes they are the silly Scenario Mission ships :(
Anyway, laying it out there. YMMV.
PS, LOL, 1st 425 wasn't even online. Missions == whatever mods are lying around + speed or cargo, please. :) Yes yes, need to be careful encountering ppl in this :)
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.16 04:44:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Posted by Homo Erectus
Quote:
Using anti l on npc's from 90km is also nice.
This is why I ask. I'm just curious on how it's done. If I'm reading this right, he's saying he's using antimater on npc's at 90km.
If I read this wrong ignore me and move on.
You can achieve very long range using tracking computers, the low slot ones are best I believe.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Lansfear
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Posted - 2004.01.16 06:45:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Lansfear on 16/01/2004 06:48:05
Awesome. Still can't see using them again, the damage is horridly low. Hopefully we'll see some love givin to hybrids soon.
Thanks for the info.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.16 07:30:00 -
[18]
Here's another way I look at bonuses.
Damage bonus --- Means I can make Iridium hit harder.
Range bonus --- Means I can make Antimatter go farther.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.01.16 08:44:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Here's another way I look at bonuses.
Damage bonus --- Means I can make Iridium hit harder.
Range bonus --- Means I can make Antimatter go farther.
Finally someone that understands why caldari ship bonuses don't suck.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.16 11:21:00 -
[20]
Maybe you can all see my dilemma. Here in this thread we see disagreement. That rails can pop someone long range is great but from what I gather projectiles can too, have more damage and use practically no cap.
Lasers may not have the range but better damage potential and no ammo to pay for (just deal with the cap).
Does that sum it up?
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VeNT
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Posted - 2004.01.16 11:40:00 -
[21]
its easyer to get rails to fire further and do more damage imho
but the ship bonus plays a HUGE part
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.01.16 11:46:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Maybe you can all see my dilemma. Here in this thread we see disagreement. That rails can pop someone long range is great but from what I gather projectiles can too, have more damage and use practically no cap.
Lasers may not have the range but better damage potential and no ammo to pay for (just deal with the cap).
Does that sum it up?
Nope.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
ga'ia
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Posted - 2004.01.16 11:51:00 -
[23]
Only problem that i can thats the problem is that they have fairly low falloff. the 1400 have almost 3 times as much [60km]. A little boost there wouldnt hurt if one really gonna use em as longrange guns.
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OmegaTron
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:23:00 -
[24]
the Large Dual 250mm's lick a$$ and the Large 425mm's are a little to small. CCP needs to bring in a Large 550mm Rail with 36k opt and 14k fo with a 9sec ROF and 4.8x dmg modifier.
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A Plague is comming.... |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:33:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Gariuys on 16/01/2004 13:33:50
Quote:
the Large Dual 250mm's lick a$$ and the Large 425mm's are a little to small. CCP needs to bring in a Large 550mm Rail with 36k opt and 14k fo with a 9sec ROF and 4.8x dmg modifier.
hmm, you don't actually use 425s do you 
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Valeria
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:40:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Here's another way I look at bonuses.
Damage bonus --- Means I can make Iridium hit harder.
Range bonus --- Means I can make Antimatter go farther.
5% range is nowhere near as useful as 5% damage, or 5% damage and rof, though. If they'd increase the bonus to 10% it would actually be useful and comparable to say 5% damage on the Megathron.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.01.16 13:43:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Quote:
Here's another way I look at bonuses.
Damage bonus --- Means I can make Iridium hit harder.
Range bonus --- Means I can make Antimatter go farther.
5% range is nowhere near as useful as 5% damage, or 5% damage and rof, though. If they'd increase the bonus to 10% it would actually be useful and comparable to say 5% damage on the Megathron.
That or they could make hardpoints on Caldari BS overlap more. 6/6 or something like that.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Miriel Arkonis
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:28:00 -
[28]
The people saying that rails suck and that projectile are the way to go are ignoring the fact that projectiles miss all the time.
Take a look at the screenshot that Ayar Cachi posted. He's firing at extreme range (way past optimum) and getting hits more often than a projectile gets AT optimum.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:36:00 -
[29]
Quote:
The people saying that rails suck and that projectile are the way to go are ignoring the fact that projectiles miss all the time.
Take a look at the screenshot that Ayar Cachi posted. He's firing at extreme range (way past optimum) and getting hits more often than a projectile gets AT optimum.
Okay, this is why people use projectiles over railguns, its quite simple.
Projectiles use no cap, do more damage, and have much much longer range, and use very little CPU.
Railguns use a significate amount of cap, do average damage, and hit nothing past their optimals, ever. They also are the highest CPU req weapons in the game.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Miriel Arkonis
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:47:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Quote:
The people saying that rails suck and that projectile are the way to go are ignoring the fact that projectiles miss all the time.
Take a look at the screenshot that Ayar Cachi posted. He's firing at extreme range (way past optimum) and getting hits more often than a projectile gets AT optimum.
Okay, this is why people use projectiles over railguns, its quite simple.
Projectiles use no cap, do more damage, and have much much longer range, and use very little CPU.
Railguns use a significate amount of cap, do average damage, and hit nothing past their optimals, ever. They also are the highest CPU req weapons in the game.
Projectiles use no cap
Yes, I agree, thats why people use projectiles, but that doesn't mean that rails suck.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:47:00 -
[31]
Raynor, give it a rest. Projectiles do not do more damage unless fitted on a Tempest. And even a Tempest can easily be outdamaged by a Megathron or Apocalypse/Armaggedon. At a capacitor cost, yes, but nonetheless.
Just do the math.
What needs fixing is Caldaris crappy ship bonuses.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.16 15:54:00 -
[32]
Quote:
Raynor, give it a rest. Projectiles do not do more damage unless fitted on a Tempest. And even a Tempest can easily be outdamaged by a Megathron or Apocalypse/Armaggedon. At a capacitor cost, yes, but nonetheless.
Just do the math.
What needs fixing is Caldaris crappy ship bonuses.
I never said 425mm railguns sucked, I said they are outranged by projectiles, which they are, and have many advantages over railguns.
425mm Railguns are DEAD average guns. A Megathron can turn them into a "good" gun, and a Caldari ship they are still DEAD average, with slightly better range.
Again, why use hybrids on a Caldari ship? Projectiles use less CPU (and on a Raven CPU is a huge issue), they do more damage, they use no cap, they outrange railguns.
Projectiles are just better for Caldari ships than hybrids are.
Capacitator is everything, hitting another shield tanked ship using 425mm railguns with a Caldari ship is like slapping it with a wet noodle and wearing yourself out quickly.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Valeria
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:16:00 -
[33]
Well, running 4 1400's on a Scorp/Raven as opposed to 4 425's will indeed give you alot more cap for your shields, but you'll also have to spend another low-slot and do less damage. The huge fall-off may nullify the optimal range advantage the 425's have but none the less, you will do less damage to your opponent.
Which is why I belive the issue is not with railguns but with Caldari ship bonuses.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Cirle
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:37:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Capacitator is everything, hitting another shield tanked ship using 425mm railguns with a Caldari ship is like slapping it with a wet noodle and wearing yourself out quickly.
How much to projectile users play with the different ammunition types, ie will they switch to EMP style ammunition against heavy shield users, or is it just chosen on range modifier?
Cirle |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:47:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Quote:
Here's another way I look at bonuses.
Damage bonus --- Means I can make Iridium hit harder.
Range bonus --- Means I can make Antimatter go farther.
5% range is nowhere near as useful as 5% damage, or 5% damage and rof, though. If they'd increase the bonus to 10% it would actually be useful and comparable to say 5% damage on the Megathron.
Indeed. The problem is NOT the 425mm rails, but the Caldari ship bonus.
The break-even, the distance where a 425mm rail fitted on a Caldari ship will deal as much damage as a 425mm rail on a Megathron is, at about 80 km range
For the rail on a Caldari ship to outdamage the one on a Megathron, you need to be at like 100 km range.
If the Caldari ship bonus was +10% to range instead of +5%, the Caldari rail could break even already at slightly above 40 km range.
But one major problem still remain. When fighting at like 45 km range, it takes about 25 seconds for the first cruise missile to reach the target.
As of now, cruise missiles are best used at close range.
Cruise missile speed needs to be upped to like 5000 m/s for Caldari to really be long range ships.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:49:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Quote:
Capacitator is everything, hitting another shield tanked ship using 425mm railguns with a Caldari ship is like slapping it with a wet noodle and wearing yourself out quickly.
How much to projectile users play with the different ammunition types, ie will they switch to EMP style ammunition against heavy shield users, or is it just chosen on range modifier?
Cirle
There is no point at all to use anything but EMP ammo with projectile guns.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
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