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Mogrin
Caldari Spartan Fleet Systems
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Posted - 2007.06.21 02:37:00 -
[1]
These faction missiles are gonna sell for a ton imo. Best missiles that you'll be capable of stockpiling. Damn near the damage of a advanced high damage missiles with the range of normal missiles.
Now for those of you people that will want to buy them of a special type, is best that you put out serious buy orders beforehand so we'll know which ones to get from the LP store. I say serious because this will be a sellers market. _______________ Rokh vs. Hyperion |
Sessho Seki
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Posted - 2007.06.21 02:53:00 -
[2]
Market forces, contrary to CCP in every single instance, will ALWAYS bring stability.
Cash cow? maybe for the initial push and novelty, but the second players see a market in it, the greed will take hold nicely and players will pour into the new aspect of the market. Being relatively "repeatable" thing to acquire, anyone with the will to do so will thus make it so.
Then in short order, equilibrium will find itself (note the lack of CCP artificially manipulating the market, this is a good thing), players will see abundant supply, and providers/producers there-of. This will result in competition for sales, it is not only a given, but an inescapable truth (see also Hulks quite commonly at less than 25% of their former price range for instance).
Competition will nicely make prices palatable for both the buyers and the sellers, equilibrium will be found quite well on its own, and the villagers will rejoice.
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Ryan Scouse'UK
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Posted - 2007.06.21 02:58:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Sessho Seki Market forces, contrary to CCP in every single instance, will ALWAYS bring stability.
Cash cow? maybe for the initial push and novelty, but the second players see a market in it, the greed will take hold nicely and players will pour into the new aspect of the market. Being relatively "repeatable" thing to acquire, anyone with the will to do so will thus make it so.
Then in short order, equilibrium will find itself (note the lack of CCP artificially manipulating the market, this is a good thing), players will see abundant supply, and providers/producers there-of. This will result in competition for sales, it is not only a given, but an inescapable truth (see also Hulks quite commonly at less than 25% of their former price range for instance).
Competition will nicely make prices palatable for both the buyers and the sellers, equilibrium will be found quite well on its own, and the villagers will rejoice.
So Question ... have you been out lately ..
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Mogrin
Caldari Spartan Fleet Systems
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Posted - 2007.06.21 03:04:00 -
[4]
I guess this kinda flew over your head. Missiles are consumable, you use them, you use lots of them. Make no mistake the demand will be higher than the supply. You did notice the navy ravens on that list? Kinda destroys your theory right there. _______________ Rokh vs. Hyperion |
Krulla
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.21 03:24:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mogrin I guess this kinda flew over your head. Missiles are consumable, you use them, you use lots of them. Make no mistake the demand will be higher than the supply. You did notice the navy ravens on that list? Kinda destroys your theory right there.
I think you missed the part where all 30% of EvE does is run missions for caldari agents.
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Raivi
Explosion Matrix
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Posted - 2007.06.21 03:27:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Raivi on 21/06/2007 03:29:04
Originally by: Krulla
I think you missed the part where all 30% of EvE does is run missions for caldari agents.
This.
There are a ton of people running Caldari missions, and all those people will be able to produce more missiles than needed for themselves.
It should be a fairly balanced market, because if supply outstrips demand then people will simply switch to buying BCUs and Hardeners from the LP store and demand will never outstrip the potential supply of that many people with Caldari LPs.
Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.21 04:00:00 -
[7]
No, faction ammo will NOT be the ubernew cashcow. It won't be any more nor any less of a cashcow as any other offer from the LP shop.
It basically comes down to how much is 1 LP worth in ISK. Now, all offers will have roughly the same value in ISK for 1 LP, and I hope I don't have to explain in painstaking detail WHY. The lowest ISK:LP values will be for items requiring little LP to acquire, the higher values will be for those with a high LP value, but the spread will be quite small.
The BOTTOM value of 1 LP is already fixed at around 1000 ISK for 1 LP, through the "nexus chips" NPC buy orders. The upper value will be determined by supply/demand. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.21 05:02:00 -
[8]
Simple put, they cost a certain amount of ISK and a certain amount of time (to do the missions to get the LP). So the price won't vary much, since there already is a solid bottom pane, and they are so easy to get, that once the price gets too high, many will jump on the bandwagon, purchase them from the shop..and voila, bring down the price again.
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Mogrin
Caldari Spartan Fleet Systems
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Posted - 2007.06.21 06:41:00 -
[9]
The concept of a luxury item isn't sinking in. Just having these missiles is an extra 13% damage mod. These are something that mission runners will NOT use but pvpers WILL. In my last level 4 i blew through 4600 heavy missiles, like hell im gonna use caldari navy ones for mission running.
I'm betting they'll sell for at least double that of fury missiles. _______________ Rokh vs. Hyperion |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.06.21 07:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mogrin The concept of a luxury item isn't sinking in. Just having these missiles is an extra 13% damage mod. These are something that mission runners will NOT use but pvpers WILL. In my last level 4 i blew through 4600 heavy missiles, like hell im gonna use caldari navy ones for mission running.
I'm betting they'll sell for at least double that of fury missiles.
You're over estimating how committed to their craft most PVPers are. I kill 'PVPers' all day long that have all T1 setups (and I mean bone standard T1, not best named T1) or just plain garbage setups, because they're afraid of actually losing ISK if they lose their ship.
For people like me, damn right I'm gonna use faction ammo. I need every last dps I can get when I'm attacking (and killing) battleships with my cruisers and frigs. 15% more base damage is a huge bonus for me, as I would never use T2 ammo due to the penalties.
BUYING ZAINOU 'DEADEYE' ZGL1000 IMPLANTS, PAYING WELL, CONVO/MAIL IN-GAME |
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Rilder
Caldari THC LTD
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Posted - 2007.06.21 08:00:00 -
[11]
For me, being a casual rper and one who does missions a fair bit I'm probably not gonna sell my faction ammo that I get, for me firing a Caldari Navy salvo of missiles\Hybrid ammo is just my way of saying "Regards From the State" as they tear into my enemies. ---------- -Rilder Visit my blog =) http://rilderslog.blogspot.com/ |
Rafein
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Posted - 2007.06.21 10:19:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mogrin I guess this kinda flew over your head. Missiles are consumable, you use them, you use lots of them. Make no mistake the demand will be higher than the supply. You did notice the navy ravens on that list? Kinda destroys your theory right there.
Actually, the missiles are pretty cheap. LP wise. Enough that a player can simply run missions to keep himself in stock. They only cost 4,200 LP for Cruise (not sure about other missiles). A player get the offer, user the missiels in missions, and by the time he runs out, have enough LP to select the offer 2-3 more times.
The real price spike will be the making the basic missiles that you use in the offer. I stopped by motsu yesterday, and most missiles were selling at around 45% above average marketcost.
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Random Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.21 10:42:00 -
[13]
Huge numbers of mission runners have access to huge quantities of missiles. Expect the market to get flooded rather soon.
Judging by the lp cost of the missiles versus lp recieved for missions and how many missiles are required per mission, I think most mission runners will be able to be self sustaining in faction missiles if they want to go that way.
And even have a surplus. Meaning the only possible customers u may get are pvpers.
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Kesh McCall
Caldari Independant Science Network
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Posted - 2007.06.21 10:59:00 -
[14]
5000 torps cost me 5800 LP 5000 casual Torps and some ISK ( due to producing the basic torps ).
Considering 1 LP = 1000 ISK plus the initial costs would make this around 2800 ISK per torp. 12 to 16 torps for a Cruiser / Battlecruiser sized ship cost me 33.600 - 44.800 ISK while they yield a bounty of 20.000 to 56.000 ISK. So their only profitable use for a mission runner is against Battleships. And even then .. i save a maximal amount of 15 % time pure Missionrunning ( not for salvaging looting and such ) while i pay a whooping 7 times higher price for my ammo. And this all without any profit.
Conclusion: I will use Faction ammo for PvP and i will sell faction ammo to people who think they can afford it.
So who wants some 100k Ammo of any sort ?
Cheers, Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars |
myii
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.06.21 11:07:00 -
[15]
What effect will the influx of faction ammo have on T2 ammo producers? Is it even worth inventing T2 ammo now?
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violator2k5
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.21 11:20:00 -
[16]
Originally by: myii What effect will the influx of faction ammo have on T2 ammo producers? Is it even worth inventing T2 ammo now?
wasnt worth it in the first place
its about time they brought out faction missiles imo, and from the looks of this thread people are already trying to farm it :/ ---------------------------- BOB 4 LIFE NOT JUST 4 A DAY ----------------------------
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Asmosis
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Posted - 2007.06.21 12:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Mogrin The concept of a luxury item isn't sinking in. Just having these missiles is an extra 13% damage mod. These are something that mission runners will NOT use but pvpers WILL. In my last level 4 i blew through 4600 heavy missiles, like hell im gonna use caldari navy ones for mission running.
I'm betting they'll sell for at least double that of fury missiles.
I think the concept of a market is failing to sink in here. Missles are predominately used by caldari mission runners.... see where thats going? The excess supply from here will easily fund anyone outside of that group.
Like any new toy the price will start high then drop to normal, Just like implants and connections books will now be doing.
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Zar Dim
Minmatar Anus Horriblis
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Posted - 2007.06.21 12:32:00 -
[18]
Please note there are plenty guys in Ravens who did not have access to caldari agents
And if the mission time will be shortened by 10%(due to faster kills). Missiles will repay themselves. I'm not doing lvl4 missions to shot frigs and cruisers in any way.
As for t2 missiles they are obsolete now.
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Sessho Seki
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Posted - 2007.06.21 15:20:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mogrin I guess this kinda flew over your head. Missiles are consumable, you use them, you use lots of them. Make no mistake the demand will be higher than the supply. You did notice the navy ravens on that list? Kinda destroys your theory right there.
I guess it kinda flew over your head that no one here agrees with you, and that I am not only 100% correct, but the market will continue to prove me so.
As for the CN Ravens, cost pre-patch and cost post-patch are identical, time needed to get the LP is the same, material needs are the same... that basically takes your opinion and places it precisely where it belongs, in the circular filing cabinet
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Exlegion
KnightRaven Research KnightRaven Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.21 15:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Zar Dim As for t2 missiles they are obsolete now.
As opposed to being useful prepatch?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
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Nai Ling
Amarr Middle Finger Technology Ghosts Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Mogrin The concept of a luxury item isn't sinking in. Just having these missiles is an extra 13% damage mod. These are something that mission runners will NOT use but pvpers WILL. In my last level 4 i blew through 4600 heavy missiles, like hell im gonna use caldari navy ones for mission running.
I'm betting they'll sell for at least double that of fury missiles.
You're over estimating how committed to their craft most PVPers are. I kill 'PVPers' all day long that have all T1 setups (and I mean bone standard T1, not best named T1) or just plain garbage setups, because they're afraid of actually losing ISK if they lose their ship.
For people like me, damn right I'm gonna use faction ammo. I need every last dps I can get when I'm attacking (and killing) battleships with my cruisers and frigs. 15% more base damage is a huge bonus for me, as I would never use T2 ammo due to the penalties.
Don't get me wrong, I'll fit Faction + T2 like crazy on a PVP ship, but if I'm gonna go out ratting/mission running, I'm just gonna fit standard T1 equipment, or named if I have it lying around. I'm not gonna spend all the money in the world if I know I'm not going to do anything but carebear that ship. Maybe that's why my ratting ships don't fair so well when I get caught in belts after being careless..... _______________________________________________
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Mogrin
Caldari Spartan Fleet Systems
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sessho Seki
Originally by: Mogrin I guess this kinda flew over your head. Missiles are consumable, you use them, you use lots of them. Make no mistake the demand will be higher than the supply. You did notice the navy ravens on that list? Kinda destroys your theory right there.
I guess it kinda flew over your head that no one here agrees with you, and that I am not only 100% correct, but the market will continue to prove me so.
As for the CN Ravens, cost pre-patch and cost post-patch are identical, time needed to get the LP is the same, material needs are the same... that basically takes your opinion and places it precisely where it belongs, in the circular filing cabinet
Step 1 -Take a look at how many navy ravens are on the market. Step 2 -Take a look at the demand for navy ravens. Step 3 -blush
If supply cannot keep up with demand, prices stay really high. And with things like navy ravens, demand will eventually go down as more players get their navy ravens and keep them longer than it takes to make 600k LP.
Now please realize the difference between ships and ammo. Demand for ships can go down as we can see with the oversupply of ships. Now take a look at tech 2 ammo. I can't find any fury scourge heavies in my region. And when I can they are sold for like 3000 isk a pop, AND THEY SELL.
Caldari scourge heavies weren't on the market at all yesterday. Some noob sold 5000 for 450 a pop, they sold before I could get them, and then they were back on the market for 2500 a pop, again they sold before I could get them. I haven't seen any on there since.
And the same people that buy these luxury items one day will still buy them the next day because they run out. Its not possible to keep supply up with demand in this case. It takes more missiles to gain the LP needed than the amount of missiles you gain from the LP spent.
What this means is the market will stay empty and if you decide to put up caldari scourge heavies on the market for 20,000 a pop, somebody will buy them and curse your name, but they'll buy them. _______________ Rokh vs. Hyperion |
Sharupak
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mogrin These faction missiles are gonna sell for a ton imo. Best missiles that you'll be capable of stockpiling. Damn near the damage of a advanced high damage missiles with the range of normal missiles.
Now for those of you people that will want to buy them of a special type, is best that you put out serious buy orders beforehand so we'll know which ones to get from the LP store. I say serious because this will be a sellers market.
I definately see what you are saying there. Especially since it will be restricted by LP of a single person. You get a whole load of people to run missions and aquire the missles off of them to sell in the market for a way marked up price.
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Sessho Seki
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Posted - 2007.06.22 16:32:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Sessho Seki on 22/06/2007 16:33:45
Originally by: Mogrin
Originally by: Sessho Seki
Originally by: Mogrin I guess this kinda flew over your head. Missiles are consumable, you use them, you use lots of them. Make no mistake the demand will be higher than the supply. You did notice the navy ravens on that list? Kinda destroys your theory right there.
I guess it kinda flew over your head that no one here agrees with you, and that I am not only 100% correct, but the market will continue to prove me so.
As for the CN Ravens, cost pre-patch and cost post-patch are identical, time needed to get the LP is the same, material needs are the same... that basically takes your opinion and places it precisely where it belongs, in the circular filing cabinet
Step 1 -Take a look at how many navy ravens are on the market. Step 2 -Take a look at the demand for navy ravens. Step 3 -blush
If supply cannot keep up with demand, prices stay really high. And with things like navy ravens, demand will eventually go down as more players get their navy ravens and keep them longer than it takes to make 600k LP.
Now please realize the difference between ships and ammo. Demand for ships can go down as we can see with the oversupply of ships. Now take a look at tech 2 ammo. I can't find any fury scourge heavies in my region. And when I can they are sold for like 3000 isk a pop, AND THEY SELL.
Caldari scourge heavies weren't on the market at all yesterday. Some noob sold 5000 for 450 a pop, they sold before I could get them, and then they were back on the market for 2500 a pop, again they sold before I could get them. I haven't seen any on there since.
And the same people that buy these luxury items one day will still buy them the next day because they run out. Its not possible to keep supply up with demand in this case. It takes more missiles to gain the LP needed than the amount of missiles you gain from the LP spent.
What this means is the market will stay empty and if you decide to put up caldari scourge heavies on the market for 20,000 a pop, somebody will buy them and curse your name, but they'll buy them.
Hmmm... /Tries to wade through Mogrin's ego on the way to what he/she was supposedly trying to say...
You are not the macro economy, you aren't even the micro economy, individual experience does not an economy make.
Before you open your unbelievably ignorant mouth again, please learn at least something about economics. Again, I know full well you don't believe me, and I am quite content with that situation, thankfully however the facts are independent of your belief and as such will remain the facts regardless of your uninformed opinion or microcosm of experience.
The market can and will find its own balance, supply and demand will meet in an equilibrium between the demand's willingness to pay and supply's capability to provide (which you even touched upon then ran away from when you realized you countered your own silly contention within the same post). Time will settle the waves, and as I said before and will reiterate now, just as with every single other market (real or virtual), the second things like CCP's destabilizing artificial scarcity are removed from the equation, the markets not only stabilize but flourish precisely because they aren't being constrained.
Continue to be ignorant, choose to not think beyond your tiny realm, and simply mire yourself in your misinformation; meanwhile the rest of the game will happily move on without you and it will continue to find its balance regardless of your disbelief.
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Sessho Seki
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Posted - 2007.06.22 16:44:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sharupak
Originally by: Mogrin These faction missiles are gonna sell for a ton imo. Best missiles that you'll be capable of stockpiling. Damn near the damage of a advanced high damage missiles with the range of normal missiles.
Now for those of you people that will want to buy them of a special type, is best that you put out serious buy orders beforehand so we'll know which ones to get from the LP store. I say serious because this will be a sellers market.
I definately see what you are saying there. Especially since it will be restricted by LP of a single person. You get a whole load of people to run missions and aquire the missles off of them to sell in the market for a way marked up price.
Keep in mind that there are numerous other commodities that require perfectly comparable investment of time, the rewards can be large, and the resulting purchase is inherently consumed, only to leave the purchaser needing more again. No one is complaining that building materials are the "cash cow" (unless they are idiots), simply because when people see there is a demand for supply, they know money is to be made.
Those people will do what they can do fill that demand to make that money, however as more people get into the market, supplies increase and each person wants to sell, so competition inherently influences price drops (I defy anyone to tell me of even a single market where competition has not reduced prices).
Competition of producers make for a BUYERS market, Mogrin is exactly right in being 100% wrong
Remember, we can't measure the economy on the back of a single producer, and in the long run there will not be a single producer now will there? Think of all the mission runners out there (and for heaven's sake don't even get started on Caldari mission runners), do you actually believe out of the entirety of EVE that those mission runners aren't going to see the potential for their LP to repay them? They will see soon enough that there is potential in their LP, and will use it accordingly.
Yet again, it's simply a matter that time will tell, and I have absolute confidence in the economy to regulate it self, because every single time a market has been left to its own devices it has done better.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2007.06.22 18:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mogrin Now please realize the difference between ships and ammo. Demand for ships can go down as we can see with the oversupply of ships.
Then perhaps we can use ME datacores as an example? Those never dropped in price as more people began going into ME Research agents did they? Nor as they become more available with reduced RP cost? May we call you Mogrin Greenspan? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected]) |
Tarazed Aquilae
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Posted - 2007.06.22 19:11:00 -
[27]
For what itÆs worth, this is what I think will happenà
Mission runners will be very tempted to use the faction ammo and PvPers will almost have to use it to compete. This will mean there will be a solid market for the ammo.
But, the market will decide that one LP is worth æXÆ amount of ISK. Then it becomes a fairly simple matter to determine what the price of the faction ammo should be. If ammo prices drop below this amount then people will simply spend their LPs somewhere else and supply will dry up. If the ammo sells for more than this amount people will convert all their LPs to ammo and make a fortune. This, of course, will drive supply up and prices will fall.
The necessary ôcommonö ammo is very easy to make. There might be a shortfall right now but it will quickly correct. Keep in mind that the market isnÆt going to correct overnight. Someone mentioned Mechanical Engineering datacores. It takes time to train the skills, time to get the necessary standing, and time to earn the research points. And, if people think that everyone else is going to run out and chase ME datacores they arenÆt going to invest the time. But as time goes on, more and more people will.
The actual market effect will be felt in other areas thoughà
Prices on implants are probably going to change drastically. Some might go up and some might go down but they will change to reflect the costs in the LP store.
The LP store is going to be a huge ISK sink. When players buy from each other no ISK leaves the system (except taxes) itÆs just transferred from one player to another. But, with the LP store, ISK in huge quantities will vanish forever. This will tend to cause overall prices to drop. NPC prices and rewards wonÆt be affected however and that will make skills and LP store items relatively more expensive.
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William Alex
Viscosity Dark Synergy
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Posted - 2007.06.22 19:21:00 -
[28]
While I don't claim to see the future like everyone else in these forums *gasp*, I do have a feeling it will be a good sell. I'll have to wait and see though. As long as there's a clear cut best way to convert lp to isk you'll see people doing it.
Remember that lp will be valued at what ever the best conversion rate is.
Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
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Vivus Mors
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Posted - 2007.06.22 20:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: William Alex While I don't claim to see the future like everyone else in these forums *gasp*, I do have a feeling it will be a good sell. I'll have to wait and see though. As long as there's a clear cut best way to convert lp to isk you'll see people doing it.
Remember that lp will be valued at what ever the best conversion rate is.
well, I don't think anyone is claiming to see the future, but rather do what people in real life do, follow trends that have recurred in the past to help determine the most likely course things will follow. The economics of the argument are pretty clear, and it's not even a matter of predicting anything as it is stating what always happens when people are allowed to have a free-market.
Just as with anything else made somewhat newly available (see also faction stuff, tech 2 stuff, etc.) LP based gear is now available more directly than ever before, if anything, removing the leash from the market will only make it that much easier to acquire in the long term than it is now.
LP Market is to Faction/Empire gear as Invention is to Tech 2 gear, and in time it will be a great stabilizer by directly equating effort (for LP) with value (in isk and/or items). ------------------------------------------------ UPDATED March 11 Formal request for improvements to industrialism |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.06.22 20:34:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/06/2007 20:35:27
I was having a look at the republic fleet ammo. Its much sexier. Shame there was no version of Barrage though, but guess I cant have everything I want. :) ---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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