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Ralumos
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Posted - 2007.06.22 13:32:00 -
[1]
How do people make long range, low tracking speed, turrets work effectively. Every time I try fitting railguns (am Caldari so have hybrid skills more than energy or projectile), I do great until whatever I am shooting gets within like 30km of me. What do you do then? Caldari are not a drone race, and I certainly can't kill everything with drones in a reasonable amount of time. I can AB or MWD, but its usually not enough to stay out of range indefinitely.
Which brings me to PvP. People say missiles suck in PvP (why, btw), and I know people use rails because I've seen it. So how do you keep your enemy 50km away from you long enough to kill them?
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.22 13:36:00 -
[2]
Fit tracking computers or tracking enhancers to help with tracking. But if it's very close range, you'll have trouble.
Missile aren't so good in PvP for long range engagements because of the travel time. By the time your first volley is there, chances are you turret brethren have taken the target down (especially with ranges of 150km+) HOWEVER, in small gangs, a torp raven can provide alot of firepower for the gang, if the target is locked down and painted.
Depending on your ship, caldari aren't completely crap with drones. I fit 7 t2 med drones in my raven, which is more than enough to take down frigates and some cruisers - hell, they can even take down a 500k BS rat by themselves.
You can't solo long range, which is what it sounds like you're trying to do. You need a tackler with a web and a scram to keep them at a distance from you that you want, in your case >50km.
Hope this helps, I'm a missile man myself, but I know the theory.
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PhantomVyper
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.22 13:39:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Ralumos
How do people make long range, low tracking speed, turrets work effectively. Every time I try fitting railguns (am Caldari so have hybrid skills more than energy or projectile), I do great until whatever I am shooting gets within like 30km of me. What do you do then? Caldari are not a drone race, and I certainly can't kill everything with drones in a reasonable amount of time. I can AB or MWD, but its usually not enough to stay out of range indefinitely.
Which brings me to PvP. People say missiles suck in PvP (why, btw), and I know people use rails because I've seen it. So how do you keep your enemy 50km away from you long enough to kill them?
Long range weapons are only really effective in fleet / large gang fights, where you have dedicated tacklers whose job is to pin the targets in plave so that the long range ships can destroy them.
Missiles aren't considered very good for PVP because they don't do instant damage like turrets do, they have a travel time to reach their target wich means that the other guy will probably outdamage you.
No idea what to do to keep PVE targets away since I don't PVE. But I guess thats the reason most ppl use missiles in PVE, you don't have to deal with silly things like range and tracking when using them...
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Ralumos
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Posted - 2007.06.22 13:40:00 -
[4]
I am much more invested into missiles also, I guess recently I've been reconsidering my Eve-life and wondering if I should start focusing on guns, since the damage potential is much greater. Being Caldari, railguns seem the way to go, but personally every PvP experience I've found myself in has gone my way even using missiles.
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Altemi Calabre
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Posted - 2007.06.22 13:42:00 -
[5]
Few key things:
One, because CCP can't grasp the concept of maneuvering should help the maneuverable ship, don't orbit your target. Flying dead away from them in a straight line at your best speed at least forces them to chase as much as possible, reducing transversal speed. This will improve your chance hit.
Two, you didn't mention if you were swapping to short range ammo, like Anti-matter. I'm assuming you are, but i've often been surprised by how many people don't realize the range characteristics of reloading.
Three, tracking computer or tracking low mods. Big helpers.
Four, webbers. Webbing a target that is pursuing you (yes, clearly he'll drop behind out of web range) can get you a very nice opportunity to label your target with a couple of good hits.
Five, target painting. While tracking is part of your problem, target painting the target so it's signature is more favourable (bigger targets are easier to hit :) ) is also a viable assist.
Depending on what your exact weak point is in a fight some combination of the above will work.
As for the second part of your question, fitting for speed and an MWD is your only hope and smaller ships will likely still catch you. If they are fast orbiters, you _may_ want to consider a smartbomb. Also handy for roasting drones eating your hull, but they are often dangerous and of limited use (notably in Empire space where carelessness or bad luck gets you a prompt punishing Concording).
Hope some of the above helps
Altemi
~ Why is it those with the greatest responsibility to make good decisions so often seem the least capable or inclined?
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Ralumos
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Posted - 2007.06.22 14:10:00 -
[6]
With a medium, and low tracking mod, and a webber, could I use railguns at very close range effectively?
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Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.06.22 14:14:00 -
[7]
You might also want to consider webber drones as an option, or I've found dual webbers handy for anything that gets withing 10km.
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Mastin Dragonfly
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.06.22 14:28:00 -
[8]
The problem you just discribed is the #1 reason why the Raven/Nighthawk/Drake are so good for mission runners: they can hit equally well at long range as they do at short range without even having to change ammo.
For turretboats it's always the dilemma to go for short or long range guns. For all their shortcomings Amarr have a bonus in this respect, since Mega Pulse can hit well up to 40km, especially with t2 ammo.
Long range turretboats are usable, but you pretty much need a webber and know various tricks to reduce tracking issues. And you want decent drone skills regardless.
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Caios
Caldari
Unified Refining Federation
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.22 14:47:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Caios on 22/06/2007 14:46:58
Problem isn't getting too close so much as tracking. If you are within optimal range, range no longer becomes a factor. However, the closer you are to the target the higher the traversal velocity could potentially be compared to turret tracking speed, meaning less damage.
Basically, you want to have your targets not moving lateral to you. I usually do this by either chasing my target or getting him to chase me, both achieved by moving in or out of the rat's orbitting range.
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Trefnis
Minmatar
Citadel of dark arts
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.22 15:01:00 -
[10]
Not sure if someone said it already but:
go overview settings -> column -> transversal velocity (spelling)
then look at target, move in same direction as him and change your speed to match his.
will work for range 30km and big stuff as bc or bs
might work for cruisers but depends on their speed
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Khorian
Gallente
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.22 15:07:00 -
[11]
You ideally want to have the targets you are shooting trail behind you. Keep the transversal as low as possible, that means you should move away from them at their speed or higher so they have to follow you in a line, ready to be picked off one by one. When you are in a BS and frigs get close to you and orbit there is no chance you can kill them with large turrets. Use drones for them.
In PvP, missiles are more like DoTs (Damage over time) while Turrets are DD (Direct Damage). There is always the chance of ships warping off before Missiles land. Turrets don't have that Problem.
Rails are excellent Fleet weapons. Fleet BS are often fitted with lots of tracking comps and enhancers and Sensorboosters, hitting 180+ km and still doing good damage it is no wonder Megathrons are on top of many killmails most of the time. You can switch Antimatter (or Navy Antimatter  ) and Spike L for Short and Long-Range.
Can go 60+ km with Antimatter and 180+ km with Spike.
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This is the signature
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Mastin Dragonfly
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.06.22 15:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Trefnis
Not sure if someone said it already but:
go overview settings -> column -> transversal velocity (spelling)
then look at target, move in same direction as him and change your speed to match his.
will work for range 30km and big stuff as bc or bs
might work for cruisers but depends on their speed
Instead of transversal velocity you may want to consider using angular velocity. Does pretty much the same thing, cept that the read-out is in radials/seconds, which is the same as how tracking is displayed on your gun info window. Note that have angular velocity being lower than your tracking doesn't automaticly mean you will hit, for some reason.
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Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari
Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.22 15:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ralumos
How do people make long range, low tracking speed, turrets work effectively. Every time I try fitting railguns (am Caldari so have hybrid skills more than energy or projectile), I do great until whatever I am shooting gets within like 30km of me. What do you do then? Caldari are not a drone race, and I certainly can't kill everything with drones in a reasonable amount of time. I can AB or MWD, but its usually not enough to stay out of range indefinitely.
1. Put a tracking computer on.
2. Put a target painter on.
3. Put an AB on and kite while always killing the closer targets.
4. Use your drones to kill anything that breaches the 25KM underbelly (which will almost always be frigs/crusiers).
Quote:
Which brings me to PvP. People say missiles suck in PvP (why, btw), and I know people use rails because I've seen it. So how do you keep your enemy 50km away from you long enough to kill them?
People say missiles suck because they're not quick-hit alpha strike weapons. At sniping ranges you can be dead before they get on target. Missiles can be out-run/damaged-reduced by fast ships.
And, of course, people like to be over-the-top and run with the herd when it comes to "conventional wisdom." Out a large part of the population, everything is always "teh rox" or "teh sux."
Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Malaan Tabfassh
Penguin Mining Operations and More
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Posted - 2007.06.22 16:07:00 -
[14]
A tracking comp and 1-2 tracking enhancers are a good idea. The columns angular velocity and speed are also important.
I have no problems hitting cruiser / battlecruiser trying to orbit me in 8k with 1400s.
To do so, two things are very important:
1) Setting a parallel course. Easiest way to do so: Center your view on your selected target then doubleclick in the direction in which it is heading. Do this continuously.
2) Match speed with your target. If you can do so, it can't orbit you and you have to do (1) just one time. When you're facing fast NPCs it might be a good idea to switch a tracking enhancer for an overdrive, when you can't fit an afterburner. Works great for me, but lots of people here will tell you it's crap to fit an overdrive in a missionrunner 
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Kirith Kodachi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.22 17:58:00 -
[15]
If you are trying to do PvE, warping out and warping in at a the extreme end of your range and then running directly away from them works nicely. Target fast stuff first.
For frigs that get too close before you can kill them, 5 T2 drones work wonders.
I use my Rokh for level four missions and it may not be as brain-dead easy as a Raven, it still rocks.
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