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Will the West emerge another juggernaut?

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JoCool MASS	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:16:00 - [1] Edited by: JoCool on 23/06/2007 08:18:31 Hello european brothers, american friends, hello EVE community, many of us europeans were closely following the news the last weeks. Our state leaders were working on a treaty for the European Union and the breakthrough has been achieved yesterday. Now if all goes well the treaty will become active in 2009. Just a few points: The EU will receive a common minister for foreign affairs, we know his name is different but the position the same. An own European Diplomacy Service. However, Mr Blair wanted to maintain national control over foreign policy, justice and home affairs which may be enforced. The leaders of the EU will elect the european President who will be in charge for 2 1/2 years each. The president of the council itself will still be kept and the terms rotate every six month between the member states. From 2014 on the system of doubled majority will be put in place. Essentially this makes the european states political weights double their population numbers. The states merge and share their power more and more while keeping their national identity. That process will be unstoppable. We europeans eat our cake and have it. The european union has 492.8 million people, compared to the US of 300.9 millions. In 2005 the GDP of the EU was 13.926.873, the US's was 12.438.873 (in million US-dollar). Will the world see another western superpower in a few dozen years? Fact is, even though its current nations' powers are relatively high, that the EU is still a sleeping supergiant, just like our american friends' US were before Pearl Harbour. Where will us westerners be in 20 years? What do you think? Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Arvald Caldari The Last Prophecy	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:22:00 - [2] Edited by: Arvald on 23/06/2007 08:21:18 Originally by: JoCool Edited by: JoCool on 23/06/2007 08:18:31 Hello european brothers, american friends, hello EVE community, many of us europeans were closely following the news the last weeks. Our state leaders were working on a treaty for the European Union and the breakthrough has been achieved yesterday. Now if all goes well the treaty will become active in 2009. Just a few points: The EU will receive a common minister for foreign affairs, we know his name is different but the position the same. An own European Diplomacy Service. However, Mr Blair wanted to maintain national control over foreign policy, justice and home affairs which may be enforced. The leaders of the EU will elect the european President who will be in charge for 2 1/2 years each. The president of the council itself will still be kept and the terms rotate every six month between the member states. From 2014 on the system of doubled majority will be put in place. Essentially this makes the european states political weights double their population numbers. The states merge and share their power more and more while keeping their national identity. That process will be unstoppable. We europeans eat our cake and have it. The european union has 492.8 million people, compared to the US of 300.9 millions. In 2005 the GDP of the EU was 13.926.873, the US's was 12.438.873 (in million US-dollar). Will the world see another western superpower in a few dozen years? Fact is, even though its current nations' powers are relatively high, that the EU is still a sleeping supergiant, just like our american friends' US were before Pearl Harbour. Where will us westerners be in 20 years? What do you think? were not suposed to discus polotics or the mods will wtfpwn us also FIRST \o/ ===============================================
JoCool MASS	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:32:00 - [3] This is not discussing politics but how our future life will be. How does the european union affect you? Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Arvald Caldari The Last Prophecy	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:33:00 - [4] Originally by: JoCool This is not discussing politics but how our future life will be. How does the european union affect you? \ sounded like polotics to me, though im not realy into that stuff (and then arvald made himself sound like an idiot ><) ===============================================
Cleric JohnPreston	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:37:00 - [5] Im up for it, any reason to keep them damn yanks in check is a good thing. No offense, but the US and world needs a peoper counter balance.
Cowboy Nuggets Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:39:00 - [6] This is not politics, this is world affairs. That being said, I don't think this is going to bring about any new world superpower. The reason is, the individual countries within the EU are not going to want to give up their own foreign policies to the EU as a whole. I don't think the member countries could possibly ever agree on any sort of foreign policy as they all have such different views towards the issues in the world today. More than likely the EU will just end up being a symbolic organization with no REAL power or authority, much like the UN is today. You can add up the population and the GDP of all the UN member countries, and it's HUGE. But it means nothing, what power does the UN truly have? Same will be the case with the EU imho.
JoCool MASS	Posted - 2007.06.23 09:00:00 - [7] Edited by: JoCool on 23/06/2007 09:02:47 To compare the UN to the EU is simply not possible as the UN is an alliance while the EU will be nation like, much like the USA. That's what the treaty is for. It is for most parts out of the common constitution that failed in 2005, we just call it "treaty". It will be for a common head. It is no simple alliance like the UN, it is much closer a merge. Only the United Kingdom did want to keep its national foreign policy, the other states were ready to give the might into EU hands - which is after all the same as before as the power will be actually kept - we're members of the EU. For us europeans internally there are no physical, trade or law borders anymore, just on the map and in language. Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Cowboy Nuggets Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.06.23 09:35:00 - [8] Well, it's not just the foreign policy thing that I think will limit the power of the EU. In order for the EU to become a true superpower, it would actually need to be given true soveriegnty over the countries within the EU. It would actually need to be like it's own country or statehood, and the countries within the EU would therefor have to give up their own statehood. Otherwise, when times get tough, everyone will just go about doing what they want. It will need to be more that just a treaty organization, or a trade organization. It seems to me from reading about this latest "treaty" the member countries are scraping together, every single part of it that had any hint of giving the EU statehood, or any sense of soveriegnty over the member countries has been shot down or compromised. To be considered less symbolic of statehood for the EU, many changes were made to this treaty. They changed the "laws" to "directives" and "regulations". They also changed it from being a "Constitution" to being called a "Treaty" for the same reasons. Other examples of this are the omission of any talk of flags, anthems or mottos. There is even an "opt-out" for in case a country does not want to cooperate with EU police actions. I believe if the member countries of the EU decide to sacrafice thier own statehood to the greater EU, then yes, the EU could emerge as a great superpower in the near future. But, as long as memeber countries continue to cling to thier individual soveriegnty, the EU will have no real power beyond being a powerful trade organization. *please excuse any spelling/grammar mistakes, it's late here....
rotweiler Gallente United Warriors Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:11:00 - [9] The US will cause a 3rd world war before anything will share its superpower status. If not them, someone else will be "pushed" to extremes (see israel). I find all this Euro talk pretty funny considering how its the germany-france bid for power with the english salivating at every turn on possible pie share, and barking at every other when things dont go their way.
Sean Dillon Caldari Naughty 40	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:15:00 - [10] The EU goverment doesn't care about its people only its own wallet and prestige its riddled with internal matters that never get really solved. A president on top of that would stand to far away from the people, just like bush in the UA, so I say no. I think country goverments know better whats good for their people then 1 guy to rule em all.
Max Godsnottlingson Amarr Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:32:00 - [11] Edited by: Max Godsnottlingson on 23/06/2007 11:34:38 While the EU has come a long way, and actually done a lot of good. It's far, far from ever becoming a superpower. While we are all coming together, in many countries, there is also a growing level of people wanting independence. IN the UK for instance, the Scots, (Northern) Irish and Welsh are constantly pushing for less involvement from London and all with a small, but vocal groups wanting full independence. Hell, even the Cornish are getting on the act now. Also keep in mind over 2000 years of almost constant warfare in Western Europe. While people are much friendlier towards each other, there are still many scars just below the surface. For at least our lifetime, Europe will remain as seperate countries, granted moving closer and closer to eachother. But the masses will not accept a United Europe. When they do, then the whole world will be a different place. For now, most people recognize that we need to work together. On one side we have the US industrial and cultural might,in the Far Eastern nations we have seen the rise of their industrial power, the Chinese are certainly a sleeping tiger starting to stire, and if teh Russians get their act together then it's another portential industrial threat to us. But working together, is not becomming one nation
Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:39:00 - [12] Not a chance. The Wests dominance is almost over. If you want to talk up and coming superpowers, talk China and India.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:45:00 - [13] Originally by: JoCool This is not discussing politics but how our future life will be. How does the european union affect you? Tbh I think it's a good idea. If it was up to me there would be a world prime minister/president or whatever. Money changed to credits (all these stupid valuts are annoying) and making a commen goal towards a bright future instead of bombing each other. This would also stop from countrys having idiots leaders etc. Could focus of research and sustainable development, making the whoel world a paradise to live in. Will never happen though... Pwnage PvP Recruitment \m/ Metal Head \m/
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:48:00 - [14] Quote: While we are all coming together, in many countries, there is also a growing level of people wanting independence. IN the UK for instance, the Scots, (Northern) Irish and Welsh are constantly pushing for less involvement from London and all with a small, but vocal groups wanting full independence. Hell, even the Cornish are getting on the act now. A lot of this is directly related to the EU: If the Welsh/Scots/Cornish/N.Irish gain independence from the UK, they believe they would have a greater say in the EU - assuming the EU accepts them in at all. Others see independence from the UK as a means to escape European unification, and benefit in the same way countries like Norway and Iceland do. Personally, I'll follow the maxim "Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss", which has me leaning toward anti-separatist sentiments. My only worry is that further unification of the EU might push more countries in Asia into a similar form of alliance, bringing us one step closer to 1984. -- Don't take the carebears out of empire - take the empire out of carebears!
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:59:00 - [15] Where will Europe be in 20 years? Simple. Strangled in red tape and run by faceless unelected bureaucrats impossible to remove. And probably partially under Sharia law to boot - because our lords and masters haven't got the guts to prevent it. I might believe in a united Europe if the people running it were elected. Ain't gonna happen. Alternatively, the EU in my opinion ought to be disbanded as soon as possible. Of course, it doesn't help us in the UK that when a new regulation is dreamed up everyone else ignores it - and the bureaucrats in the UK fully implement it, having first added on further layers of red tape not included in said regulation. There is a significant chance that Tony Blair is going to become the EU permanent president. 'Nuff said. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
JADE DRAG0NESS Native Freshfood	Posted - 2007.06.23 12:11:00 - [16] Dont forget that china is an emerging superpower too. "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
ivar R'dhak STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.23 16:55:00 - [17] Read 1984. Welcome your future. Say yes to the chip, goodbye to your freedoms, cuuse of them teerrorists, global warming, bird fluuu, yada, yada, yada. The trick lies in how slow the frog is boilt. Slow enough, judging on the posts here. _ Mal-`Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-¦Big damn heroes sir.¦ Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Andicuri Vas Gallente MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.06.23 17:32:00 - [18] I believe that anytime power moves in the direction of centralization, it is a bad thing for individuals. America, EU, China.....wherever. The bigger organizations get, the smaller the voice of the common citizen. The smaller the voice of the common citizen, the less likely the elites will be in touch with the will of the populace. The less the elites are in touch with the will of the populace, the more likely they will make (And get away with) policy that enhances their own power. The more policy that enhances their power, the less power that the common citizen has. The less power that the common citizen has, the more likely he/she will vote for government that promises freebies. The more freebies, the more vast numbers of men and women will be lulled to sleep like infants suckling on the great teat of Mother Government. All with the express consent of her people. The EU (- Britain) hasn't had the will to fight for anything in it's entire existence. How will this "Supergiant" be awakened? A good portion of the EU population numbers aren't nationalists and count themselves amongst another body that does have the will to fight. My prediction? The EU will be Islamic by 2020 and the US will be co-opted by Mexico, thereby making all white *****ers the New Palestinians, huddling in shame while refugee-ing our way to Northern Canada. A V
Jade Tairel Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.23 17:56:00 - [19] I've been getting the impression that the EU nations are still too nationalistic to cooperate and amalgamate to any great extent. (I'm a Canadian and can only speak from what I've seen, prove me wrong Europeans) While I don't believe that the EU's situation will worsen in the future, I wouldn't bet on it becoming a superpower anytime soon. As in, minimum two-hundred years or so when things have changed so much that the conditions have changed. They could do it if they truly became the same nation, but even that's difficult. Canada is the result of independent nations amalgamating and the provinces just don't see eye to eye most of the time. I also do not believe that China is the next superpower. While its economy is booming, there are serious *****s in the foundation that might cause problems soon. Its hard to tell, no one's ever seen an economy grow that fast. India's doing very well though.
Tarquin Tarquinius Gallente Escorts of Eve	Posted - 2007.06.23 18:41:00 - [20] Edited by: Tarquin Tarquinius on 23/06/2007 18:44:25 So....Europe will now become America 2: Electric Bogaloo? I don't know if we (Amurrika) can take you down if that happens. They should go ahead and let Turkey in too...the "ZOMG ITS NOT EUROPE" argument is kinda stupid. America let Hawaii in and its not really in America. EDIT: yes I realise this post is simple minded, narrow, and ignorant of European affairs. I don't feel like thinking right now. ----- 0.0 System Renaming?
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.23 18:50:00 - [21] Until the EU has the military power to back up its name, the EU doesn't mean much other than a trade conglomerate. Given that most European countries are staggering under the weight of overinflated social programs and a rising rate of elderly people...tied into the fact that governments have been wildly cutting military spending to fractions of a percent of GDP, the EU remains just that...a Union with an economic foothold in global politics.
MrTriggerHappy Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.23 19:05:00 - [22] Edited by: MrTriggerHappy on 23/06/2007 19:05:13 Back in the 18th Century the British Empire had more firepower then than the US does today. The definition for a super power is "In its generic use, the term refers to those few states with power (defined by combining a series of variables togetherùe.g. economic wealth, population size, and above all, military strength, especially in the possession of sophisticated nuclear armaments) far transcending that of the rest of the states in the international arena. More specifically, the term refers to the two states, the United States and the Soviet Union, in the time of the Cold War. After the Second World War, the United States and the Soviet Union emerged as the two leading powers, first in Europe, then, in the rest of the world, as the two powers competed against each other for influence in the global politics of the Cold War. It is widely conceded that in the aftermath of the Cold War there remains only one superpower, the United States; commentators have also coined the terms æunipolar powerÆ and æhyper powerÆ to describe the United States' post-Cold War power position." However if you want to base this purely on firepower, the eurofighter pwns the F22. During a war game the Eurofighter shot down an F22 just after it took off -------------------------------- My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance
Plaetean Drunken Shenanigans	Posted - 2007.06.23 19:40:00 - [23] Originally by: JoCool Where will us westerners be in 20 years? What do you think? Have you read The Clash of Civilisations by Samuel Huntingdon? I would go further, but don't want to risk discussing politics. I think if the EU states can co-operate well, this will be a good thing. -----
Teron D'Amun The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.23 20:58:00 - [24] "Mr. Ghandi, what do you think about western civilization?" "I think it would be a good idea."
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.06.23 23:12:00 - [25] Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 23/06/2007 23:11:57 Probably going to get locked for politics, sadly . But, by all means, on the whole I think it will be good. Europeans and us have had a few disagreements between us the last few years, but on the whole I think our relationship is strong - we believe in roughly the same ideals, means of governance, speak each other's languages fairly regularly. By all means . Looking for a relaxed ingame RP channel to join? La Maison De Tous Les Plaisirs
Sc0rpion Archer Daniels Midland	Posted - 2007.06.23 23:24:00 - [26] The EU will never be a serious power bloc as long as it buys it's natural gas from Russia. Sorry, not going to happen. He who controls the spice, rules the empire. The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche Killmails are for pooftas.
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.06.24 09:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Sc0rpion The EU will never be a serious power bloc as long as it buys it's natural gas from Russia. Sorry, not going to happen. He who controls the spice, rules the empire. Tell that the US and the Middle East . Looking for a relaxed ingame RP channel to join? La Maison De Tous Les Plaisirs
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.24 12:52:00 - [28] The EU is a trade alliance, not a political one. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: F'nog Reaper wins the thread.
Captain Hudson Caldari Intergalactic Space Defense Force	Posted - 2007.06.24 18:22:00 - [29] im just waiting for a man with a funny hair cut and a stupid moustach to come along and become EU president Originally by: SPQRMocton We would love to have a bunch of teenage pimple boys with no real pvp ability to fil our corpse yards
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.06.24 18:52:00 - [30] As long as they dont merge armed forces there will be no superpower. Even if the EU doesnt use armed forces in a aggressive way, influence will rise a lot. But thats not gonna happen, so relax ____________________________________________ Originally by: Marduk Felzhen You have an amazing cleavage, except you have no arms :(

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