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Lag, and the future of EVE

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Toman Torax Rage For Order	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:11:00 - [1] So, it seems that as the playerbase continues to grow, the dreaded Lag monster rears its ugly head and gets worse and worse. CCP makes promises to add to and upgrade the hardware, but either that is just an outright fallacy, or the load is just simply more than the current architecture can now, or ever hope to bear at any time in the future. So as I sit here, trying to get out of Jita, I ponder... Is Eve going to be ABLE to withstand their "holy grail" of 300,000 active subscribers? It can't even do so, now. And the Jita problem... well... this weekend has proven that Jita, too, needs to be addressed, and FAST. Don't get me wrong - I love this game, and I hope to continue to play it at least a few more years, if possible. But I have some SERIOUS doubts as to whether or not the current state of the infrastructure of the game will be able to withstand any more growth, player wise. So, beyond empty promises from CCP to help allieviate the problem, IS there even a solution? - short of sharding the game, which I KNOW that NOBODY wants. I'm starting to doubt it... and I want, more than anything else, to be proven WRONG. So I ask, is there any hope?
Araxmas The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:14:00 - [2] I have not much lag, I have just enterd motsu to pick-up some cruise missile bays and yes the lags bad but only about a ten-15 second delay....not as if i plan to stay there so currently there is not much lag for me. -------- Robbie Rotten left me
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:17:00 - [3] Quote: So I ask, is there any hope? Nope.... the end of the world is near
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:17:00 - [4] There is only a lag monster in one system. Your problem is that you are there. Visit this guide.
Araxmas The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Curzon Dax There is only a lag monster in one system. Your problem is that you are there. Visit this guide. We know your guide exists, its pretty much one post below this one -------- Robbie Rotten left me
Antari Shiy Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:20:00 - [6] Theres plenty of hope for the rest of the Universe. Jita on the other hand is screwed and will be until people learn to spread out. CCP can only do so much it's the player base that needs to take action. ------------------------ Blink and you're dead ------------------------ I like the new HUD, am I the only one ?
Tellenta Gallente White-Noise Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:20:00 - [7] No offence to the Jita whiners, but seriously do you not expect lag from 800 or so people in the same system, typically in or outside the same station? The problem has more to do with players not willing to admit the fact that there are several trade hubs that sell the exact same thing for roughly the same price. What is it that entices so many darn people to jita? I just dont get it. Maybe it would be a better place to be if people entered jita did thier buisiness and gtfo. But im a person that has only been to jita twice in the year i've been playing so i dont really know much about jita proper. Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
Araxmas The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:21:00 - [8] Edited by: Araxmas on 24/06/2007 22:22:06 Originally by: Antari Shiy Theres plenty of hope for the rest of the Universe. Jita on the other hand is screwed and will be until people learn to spread out. CCP can only do so much it's the player base that needs to take action. I heard they were implementing some npc haulage type ability which should help reducing jita numbers but yes even if jita is removed and all items help in jita are dumped within neighbouring systems they will prob relocate into kisogo or some other trade heavy system. edit: to post above I think it is because in Jita you are pretty much guaranteed to get any item you want for sale on the one station so it saves time. I must admit that today I went to jita to fit an omen for some random pvp set-up test, I did not lag much at all but I was part of the problem I suppose -------- Robbie Rotten left me
Tellenta Gallente White-Noise Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:31:00 - [9] Edited by: Tellenta on 24/06/2007 22:31:14 Originally by: Araxmas Edited by: Araxmas on 24/06/2007 22:22:06 Originally by: Antari Shiy Theres plenty of hope for the rest of the Universe. Jita on the other hand is screwed and will be until people learn to spread out. CCP can only do so much it's the player base that needs to take action. I heard they were implementing some npc haulage type ability which should help reducing jita numbers but yes even if jita is removed and all items help in jita are dumped within neighbouring systems they will prob relocate into kisogo or some other trade heavy system. edit: to post above I think it is because in Jita you are pretty much guaranteed to get any item you want for sale on the one station so it saves time. I must admit that today I went to jita to fit an omen for some random pvp set-up test, I did not lag much at all but I was part of the problem I suppose Thats not exactly what i ment, I guess im just tired of reading posts about how laggy jita is... If i was smart i wouldnt click anything that has jita in the title oh jita wasnt in the title i was trapped and baited Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.06.24 22:41:00 - [10] Possible solution: Shard Jita? Make the market/contracts mirrored in eve shard as well as Jita shard but just the actual graphics etc have a seperate shard. If that was a completely stupid, noob thing to say than ill take the flak for it as this is the first mmo ive ever played and my knowledge of the mechanics of "sharding" is limited to discussions of it here. Maybe this whole walking in stations deal will also help reduce lag due to people being on different resources. If we are talking about combat lag from fleet fights I think that will eventually get sorted out. Its just probably going to need a massive overhaul of the current system. I dont know if ccp would be willing to invest that much money into improving performance tbh. As long as its not bad enough that people stop subscribing they prob wont really take the bigger steps needed to remove lag. Imagine an abstract line on an imaginary "angermeter" the more lag related issues the higher the meter rises to the abstract "quit eve" line. CCP's financial strategy will only be to keep the "angermeter" below that line, not to completely remove the need for the meter in the first place. If an additional cost is needed or discussed, it will only be a justified cost if it keeps said meter below that line. If it doesnt then its not a justified cost/upgrade. The only variable here is the collective playerbase. We move the line up and down that scale. If you can convince everyone else to whine about jita, you may influence ccp to "lower" the bar on the angermeter and get a solution. Or you could just gtfooj. There are other trade hubs. As for combat lag, well thats trying to be addressed with antiblob tactics, bombs etc etc. I would like to see more work done on this sort of lag if possible, rather than spend time resources and rl isk on the laziness and stupidity of empire residents and their refusal to simply spread out a bit. Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
Toman Torax Rage For Order	Posted - 2007.06.24 23:32:00 - [11] Well for those who love to whine about Jita whiners ... this thread isn't about Jita, although I just happened to be there at the time. Lag exists in many forms OUTSIDE of Jita as well: fleet battles, missioning, in empire, in 0.0, flying around, docked in a station - it's not just ONE system. And for those so quick to jump, this wasn't a whine thread. I would just like to know if I'm going to be able to enjoy the game the way it was MEANT to be played.
Jonathos	Posted - 2007.06.24 23:43:00 - [12] I understand what happens when a lot of people are together in fleets/highly populated systems. I personally have rarely been affected by lag other than the type that occurs before a crash. I play all over low sec and 0.0 and except in the gangs of a few hundred people, everything is smooth sailing. I realize there is a problem with some types of gameplay, but continually posting things like "is there any hope?" and "CCP fix this cmon" is just exaggeration. As I said, when huge masses of people are together there is lag, almost any other time, there isn't. This is not some huge problem that everyone is affected by. And when we talk about how we doubt the game's ability to continue to hold more players, a few years ago nobody believed an MMO could survive on a single server at all. I think we should have a bit more faith in the future instead of whining and worrying about this stuff we really have very little control over.
OHGODSPIES	Posted - 2007.06.24 23:43:00 - [13] Your post would only make sense if you had some proof or at least a shaky theory that the lag is unfixable. ITT WE PREDICT THE END OF THE WORLD
Messerschmitt facility Amarr Shinra	Posted - 2007.06.24 23:49:00 - [14] It's soooo fun seeing xx people saying "Omg game is going to end, lag is just killing the game, players will quit" and all this resumes to only 1 thing. Jita. Only 1 system. You know what. I'm so happy you are getting stuck and can't play. I am so happy you can't do your agent mission. But guess what, news flash, there are another 19.999 systems in the game. Around 4999 in empire. If I was CCP I wouldn't give a damn about stuck players. I would let players be stuck for at least 1 hour, maybe afterwards they will say "omg couldn't play for 1 hour, I better relocate from jita mission run" So haha, sucks to be you _________________________________ A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
Toman Torax Rage For Order	Posted - 2007.06.25 00:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Messerschmitt facility blah blah blah Not in Jita anymore... but thanks for your concern.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.25 00:30:00 - [16] Aside from the one or two specific lag-causing things (opening wrecks for example), lag seems pretty noticeably improved by this patch, for me. First patch EVER to have said effect, that I've experienced. Just watch the FRAPS footage of that BoB titan going down and notice how smooth it is (that is it's still laggy, but pre-patch it would have been a slide show). Stay away from Jita. That is the best solution to Jita possible. Don't go there, and it can't hurt you. --------
solbright altaltalt	Posted - 2007.06.25 08:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Patch86 Aside from the one or two specific lag-causing things (opening wrecks for example), ... Please don't confuse lag with stutter and bugs. Stutter is entirely fixable. Bugs are entirely fixable. Lag cannot be eliminated but Eve is designed to deal with lag gracefully so it's not a big issue once the other problems are solved.
solbright altaltalt	Posted - 2007.06.25 08:42:00 - [18] Sadly, stutter has never been addressed and has become a big issue that gets incorrectly piled in with lag. :(
Alrich	Posted - 2007.06.25 08:53:00 - [19] what the h is stutter?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Toman Torax Don't get me wrong - I love this game, and I hope to continue to play it at least a few more years, if possible. But I have some SERIOUS doubts as to whether or not the current state of the infrastructure of the game will be able to withstand any more growth, player wise. So, beyond empty promises from CCP to help allieviate the problem, IS there even a solution? - short of sharding the game, which I KNOW that NOBODY wants. I'm starting to doubt it... and I want, more than anything else, to be proven WRONG. You want to be proven wrong? Well, people have been saying exactly (exactly) this since before I even started playing the game, and it's never happened. According to predictions like this, Eve went offline due to too many players about 2 years ago. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Ginger Tom	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:29:00 - [21] We have checked our logs and find no evidence of lag or server issues. have a nice day
Seth Ruin Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:37:00 - [22] I dare you to find an MMOG which has not suffered from lag or connection issues. I've played countless MMOGs, and even the most latency-critical (Planetside) have serious lag issues. The difficulty of both recieving and sending client data in real-time is one that won't be easily fixed. "FIX LAG" is possibly the most nonsensical complaint next to "MAKE GAME BETTER PLZ". The devs cannot "fix" lag. There's no "lag = true;" line in the code. The factors contributing to "lag" are so numerous, it's nearly impossible to trace. The best they can do is simply identify the biggest time-sink on the server and improve it, which as far as I can tell, is what they've been doing. Yes, lag sucks. But EVE Online is a bit more involved than your local Counter Strike server.
Foppemoa Caldari Royal Swedish Capsulers Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 12:12:00 - [23] Yes, MMOG's are a bit more advanced then a CS server. But there is a big difference. We pay money each month in order to play this game, and for that you would expect it to be playable. Personally i don't think it's "ok" when it sometimes takes over 40 seconds to activate modules (in Saila for example) when there is "only" 130+ in local. And yes, i know it's because everyone (including me) is doing caldari navy missions in those systems. If CCP can't fix the lag within the near future, then they seriously need to change the agent system. Instead of just creating a few more agents (those systems would get cluttered anyway after a while), just make it so you travel to Saila once. Say hello to the agent so he/she is registrered and then you can find a Caldari navy station of your own choosing and do missions from there (but with an high quality agent from for example Saila/Motsu). If it where like that i would "register" myself with an agent of choice, find myself a quiet system, do my missions and stop whining.
Foppemoa Caldari Royal Swedish Capsulers Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 12:12:00 - [24] Yes, MMOG's are a bit more advanced then a CS server. But there is a big difference. We pay money each month in order to play this game, and for that you would expect it to be playable. Personally i don't think it's "ok" when it sometimes takes over 40 seconds to activate modules (in Saila for example) when there is "only" 130+ in local. And yes, i know it's because everyone (including me) is doing caldari navy missions in those systems. If CCP can't fix the lag within the near future, then they seriously need to change the agent system. Instead of just creating a few more agents (those systems would get cluttered anyway after a while), just make it so you travel to Saila once. Say hello to the agent so he/she is registrered and then you can find a Caldari navy station of your own choosing and do missions from there (but with an high quality agent from for example Saila/Motsu). If it where like that i would "register" myself with an agent of choice, find myself a quiet system, do my missions and stop whining.
Sha4d13	Posted - 2007.06.25 12:35:00 - [25] The overwhelming problem with that is the current risk and reward structure. If you want safety- you have to use agents in high sec and if you want greater reward you go to lower sec. If you could just pick your system, this would presumably mean that (for instance) there would be a few perfect mission systems for each type of agent- ie on in 0.5, surrounded by high sec systems. For what its worth, I would add to this thread that the lag in Dodixie has been absolutely unplayable for much of the last weekend. I didn;t have problems before the patch, albeit im not a particularly regular mission runner anyway. General lag elsewhere has been pretty good.
solbright altaltalt	Posted - 2007.06.25 12:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Alrich what the h is stutter? Plenty to read - Decouple Client Interface from Network
Cpt Branko Guardian Heroes	Posted - 2007.06.25 12:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Toman Torax So as I sit here, trying to get out of Jita, I ponder... You said it all - get the hell out of Jita! At any rate, speed appears to be gradually improving. I see a speed boost with Rev 2, at least for me, the whole thing runs smoother then before. Make Jita 0.0 to improve lag.
Foppemoa Caldari Royal Swedish Capsulers Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 12:52:00 - [28] but ffs, stop just saying that we should leave Jita. As it has been pointed out, it is not the only laggy system.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.25 14:02:00 - [29] If it's about Jita, simple solutions exist. Mine for example would be to set 'trade centers', places where trading is less taxed than regular stations for categories of goods. Imagine: instead of one station in one system with all good in, you'll have 4 stations in 4 systems, one with ammo / guns, the other one with drone / ships... and so on. Other solutions as good as mine exist.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.25 14:03:00 - [30] Originally by: Toman Torax So I ask, is there any hope? no. check this badboy out.

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