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Zealot vs. Harbringer for Level 3 missions

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Mezitt	Posted - 2007.06.25 01:37:00 - [1] Edited by: Mezitt on 25/06/2007 01:38:09 Based on the skill requirements for the two ships, one might assume that Zealot is a 'better' ship than a Harbringer, but with the former, I find myself fleeing from missions, and with the latter, I generally cruise to an easy win. Is the problem my skills? My expectations? My tactics? I'll admit I'm a bit clueless at EVE, so it's entirely possible I should be playing the two ships differently than I am, somehow taking advantage of Zealot's speed and maneuverability, but I just don't know how. I generally just Approach the nearest ship, pop on MWD for a cycle once aligned if I'm far away (I've been using afterburneres for 4 months, just tried MWDs this week, omg I'm in love! I can get in range with nos finally!) and open fire when I get in range. Rinse, repeat. My fittings for the two ships are similar: basically I fill up on Heavy Anode Pulse with a medium nos, Y-T8 MWD, X5 web, fixed parallel cap recharger, medium armor rep II, radioisotope thermic, radioisotope kinetic, energized adaptive nano membrane, local power CPR, heat sink II, power diagnostic, ... then the harbringer has a tracking computer, while the zealot has another heat sink. Also, obviously, harbinger has drones while zealot doesn't. So what am I doing wrong? I've heard of people doing level 4 missions in a zealot, so why are level 3 missions challenging for me? How can Zealot expect to compete with Harbringer's 3x armor, drones, and 75% more guns?
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.25 02:58:00 - [2] No drones = fail at PvE. So Binger is better.
Fresh Prinz	Posted - 2007.06.25 03:00:00 - [3] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus No drones = fail at PvE. So Binger is better. with the size ratio to the raven that's like saying "the raven has a small drone bay therefore is crap at PvE" which could very well be true for some, all depends on your skills.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.25 03:12:00 - [4] Originally by: Fresh Prinz Originally by: Deschenus Maximus No drones = fail at PvE. So Binger is better. with the size ratio to the raven that's like saying "the raven has a small drone bay therefore is crap at PvE" which could very well be true for some, all depends on your skills. The Zealot has a drone bay size of ZERO, so no comparison can be drawn between the two really. Besides, at least missiles don't track.
Toros Revoke STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.25 04:07:00 - [5] My Zealot does perfectly well without drones
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.25 04:08:00 - [6] Originally by: Toros Revoke My Zealot does perfectly well without drones Meh. Still prefer the Binger for missions. More DPS, and drones in case something goes wrong.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.25 08:35:00 - [7] I think you could use either. I haven't seen any lvl 3's where small rats will try to warp scram you so Drones are not absolutely critical. I don't know anything at all about the Zealot but as long as you can hit a frig sized target in it and tank the damage of harder lvl 3's, I don't see the problem.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.06.25 08:36:00 - [8] dominix \o/
Mrski Okupator Amarr Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:01:00 - [9] You obviously lack in skills. T2 guns for instance. And your bc skill is at 2 only; I didn't even see HAC? Zealot packs quite a punch; plus it's range bonus is fantastic (if hac is actually trained. to 4.). It's greater speed and half the sig of the harbi mean you can easily manouver to desired ranges in any mission. Personally; i did lvl3 with an armageddon. Cry Me A River Inc. We Care. For a small donation.
Shandling Minmatar Cotton Buds Frontline.	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:05:00 - [10] I did level 3's in a Wolf. For fun. :D
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Mrski Okupator You obviously lack in skills. T2 guns for instance. And your bc skill is at 2 only; I didn't even see HAC? Zealot packs quite a punch; plus it's range bonus is fantastic (if hac is actually trained. to 4.). It's greater speed and half the sig of the harbi mean you can easily manouver to desired ranges in any mission. Personally; i did lvl3 with an armageddon. You need BC skills to fly a Hac? And if you would have actually looked at his skills and noticed what he was training, you would have seen he has Wep Upgrade 5, SC 5, Assault ships 4 and is currently working on his T2 guns. Doesn't look like he is lacking the skills to me.
Mahavy Seth Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.25 11:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Mezitt Edited by: Mezitt on 25/06/2007 01:38:09 Based on the skill requirements for the two ships, one might assume that Zealot is a 'better' ship than a Harbringer, but with the former, I find myself fleeing from missions, and with the latter, I generally cruise to an easy win. Is the problem my skills? My expectations? My tactics? I'll admit I'm a bit clueless at EVE, so it's entirely possible I should be playing the two ships differently than I am, somehow taking advantage of Zealot's speed and maneuverability, but I just don't know how. I generally just Approach the nearest ship, pop on MWD for a cycle once aligned if I'm far away (I've been using afterburneres for 4 months, just tried MWDs this week, omg I'm in love! I can get in range with nos finally!) and open fire when I get in range. Rinse, repeat. My fittings for the two ships are similar: basically I fill up on Heavy Anode Pulse with a medium nos, Y-T8 MWD, X5 web, fixed parallel cap recharger, medium armor rep II, radioisotope thermic, radioisotope kinetic, energized adaptive nano membrane, local power CPR, heat sink II, power diagnostic, ... then the harbringer has a tracking computer, while the zealot has another heat sink. Also, obviously, harbinger has drones while zealot doesn't. So what am I doing wrong? I've heard of people doing level 4 missions in a zealot, so why are level 3 missions challenging for me? How can Zealot expect to compete with Harbringer's 3x armor, drones, and 75% more guns? Zealot > Harbinger
Mastin Dragonfly Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.25 12:30:00 - [13] You do know the basics of missions? As in adjusting your resists to the enemy you're fighting and stuff? Either way, imho the Zealot doesn't start to shine until you can use tech 2 pulse with scorch ammo so you can really take advantage of the range bonus while still delivering decent dps. You should have no problem with lvl 3s in a Zealot, Harbinger can prolly do them faster. In the end you just want to combine those two ships and fly an Absolution. (4 days to go for me )
Mrski Okupator Amarr Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 14:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Mrski Okupator You obviously lack in skills. T2 guns for instance. And your bc skill is at 2 only; I didn't even see HAC? Zealot packs quite a punch; plus it's range bonus is fantastic (if hac is actually trained. to 4.). It's greater speed and half the sig of the harbi mean you can easily manouver to desired ranges in any mission. Personally; i did lvl3 with an armageddon. You need BC skills to fly a Hac? And if you would have actually looked at his skills and noticed what he was training, you would have seen he has Wep Upgrade 5, SC 5, Assault ships 4 and is currently working on his T2 guns. Doesn't look like he is lacking the skills to me. BC skill @ 2 only means he can't use the harbi to it's full potential. How did you come up with the BC being prereq for HAC?! And he's got no T2 guns or actual HAC skill. Thank you for confirming that. The point was; after training those skills to decent levels; Zealot is going to be the better. Better range, decent damage, faster and thanks to it's t2 cruiser resists; pretty tankable. READ -> THINK -> RESPOND. Cry Me A River Inc. We Care. For a small donation.
Manus Stuprare United Eve Directorate Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:56:00 - [15] Harbinger will run L3 missions faster than a Zealot. Even without drones it does more damage when using the same guns, with the drones it's a no brainer. I prefer a beam setup since you don't need to get so close to things before you can start killing them. Neither ship should have any problems tanking level 3 missions provided you don't accidentally aggro entire rooms. -------------- Poisoning the Chalice: Smartbombs as a Counter to Nos
Mezitt	Posted - 2007.06.25 19:05:00 - [16] Edited by: Mezitt on 25/06/2007 19:04:22 Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly You do know the basics of missions? As in adjusting your resists to the enemy you're fighting and stuff? I switch around Radioisotope harderners based on what I will be fighting, yes. EANM I leave alone, since most everything does two damage types. In looking at the stats between the two ships some more, I'm wondering if the missions that give me the most trouble in the Zealot are the ones where the enemies use thermal, because while zealot has superior resists versus most things, it resists thermal basically the same as harbringer. Quote: Either way, imho the Zealot doesn't start to shine until you can use tech 2 pulse with scorch ammo so you can really take advantage of the range bonus while still delivering decent dps. Why wouldn't this technology be equally important for either ship? They both use the same guns. What skills would be highest priority for Zealot?
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.26 14:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Mrski Okupator Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Mrski Okupator You obviously lack in skills. T2 guns for instance. And your bc skill is at 2 only; I didn't even see HAC? Zealot packs quite a punch; plus it's range bonus is fantastic (if hac is actually trained. to 4.). It's greater speed and half the sig of the harbi mean you can easily manouver to desired ranges in any mission. Personally; i did lvl3 with an armageddon. You need BC skills to fly a Hac? And if you would have actually looked at his skills and noticed what he was training, you would have seen he has Wep Upgrade 5, SC 5, Assault ships 4 and is currently working on his T2 guns. Doesn't look like he is lacking the skills to me. BC skill @ 2 only means he can't use the harbi to it's full potential. How did you come up with the BC being prereq for HAC?! And he's got no T2 guns or actual HAC skill. Thank you for confirming that. The point was; after training those skills to decent levels; Zealot is going to be the better. Better range, decent damage, faster and thanks to it's t2 cruiser resists; pretty tankable. READ -> THINK -> RESPOND. Mr. Clueless. my point was he is training up for HACS. You are the one who brought up that he has no BC skills. {Who cares?} As far as T2 guns go, he is training them NOW so bringing that up was pretty stupid since it is obvious he will have them soon. READ-> THINK -> Give it up because you suck at step # 2.
Chan Chan	Posted - 2007.06.26 14:44:00 - [18] I was in just this situation recently. I ended up going with the Sacrilege, despite current convention. I found that even without any damage mods that the Sac could break any tank I've found on an L3 mission, and oh man can it tank. It turned out that with low medium laser skills, the ship bonuses on the Zealot and the Harbinger didn't really create as big a difference as you'd think. Remember, the Sac has 2 missile bays and 3 light drones which can do enemy specific damage. It doesn't need to dedicate many slots to tanking or cap. It has the HAC range bonus, so I can comfortably put pulse lasers on it. All of these things together make up for a lot of the damage bonus discrepancy, and its pretty cheap. Its working out well for me while I save up monies to buy an Absolution. But really, I'll probably keep with the Sac until I get T2 medium guns because before then a lot of the bonus on the Absolution is wasted on me.
Toros Revoke STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.29 07:18:00 - [19] Edited by: Toros Revoke on 29/06/2007 07:21:50 Ignore Hatstand, he has an obvious case of zealot envy, keep training to better utilise the Zealot. It is a better prettier ship. That is all.
Karma Coma The Rising Stars	Posted - 2007.06.29 09:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Mrski Okupator Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Mrski Okupator You obviously lack in skills. T2 guns for instance. And your bc skill is at 2 only; I didn't even see HAC? Zealot packs quite a punch; plus it's range bonus is fantastic (if hac is actually trained. to 4.). It's greater speed and half the sig of the harbi mean you can easily manouver to desired ranges in any mission. Personally; i did lvl3 with an armageddon. You need BC skills to fly a Hac? And if you would have actually looked at his skills and noticed what he was training, you would have seen he has Wep Upgrade 5, SC 5, Assault ships 4 and is currently working on his T2 guns. Doesn't look like he is lacking the skills to me. BC skill @ 2 only means he can't use the harbi to it's full potential. How did you come up with the BC being prereq for HAC?! And he's got no T2 guns or actual HAC skill. Thank you for confirming that. The point was; after training those skills to decent levels; Zealot is going to be the better. Better range, decent damage, faster and thanks to it's t2 cruiser resists; pretty tankable. READ -> THINK -> RESPOND. Mr. Clueless. my point was he is training up for HACS. You are the one who brought up that he has no BC skills. {Who cares?} As far as T2 guns go, he is training them NOW so bringing that up was pretty stupid since it is obvious he will have them soon. READ-> THINK -> Give it up because you suck at step # 2. The original poster is talking about the harb as well... he was stating that it would be much better if he raise the skill past BC lvl 2, I fail to see why you have a problem with this comment
DethApostle Amarr Cruoris Seraphim Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.29 11:53:00 - [21] Well i think there are certain issues with your setup for the Zealot tbh. In mine I can easily tank lvl 4 missions and the such with no real problem. Look at using something like this as your lows: MAR II, 2x EAMN, 1x Active Thermic hardener, 1x DC II, 2x Heatsink II Of course T2 guns will help and getting those Armour Comp skills up will ease your plight some too. And get those armour & Cap skills up and it's really start to shine. If I were you though i'd jump in a Harbi and train up BC IV while you are working on the supporting skills... it's the cheaper alternative... and tbh if I caught you on a gate in that Zealot fit it'd be a short fight...
1300135	Posted - 2007.07.01 14:28:00 - [22] Edited by: 1300135 on 01/07/2007 14:28:38 Edited by: 1300135 on 01/07/2007 14:27:52 Well I own and fly both ships. Long story short, the Zealot runs Lvl 3's faster than the Harbi. Reason being not damage (which is actually about equal when you concider running 2 or 3 HS II's as the low slots aren't being used by as many resist mods)however the range on the guns and the speed of the ship. 600m/s on an ABII is faster than most frigs (any NPC frigs in lvl 3's for sure) and not only allows you to collect loot a hell of alot faster, but get to the next gate. Compared to 350m/s or 375m/s (I can't remember, I haven't flown my harbi in a while) that means you can literally do missions twice as fast. The two things to concider about these ships is that the Harbi is 35mil and the Zealot is 100mil. Harbi is cheaper. I solo half of the lvl 4 missions in the Zealot. (Web and orbit, take out frigs and cruisers first. BS's can't hit you.) The only thing to watch for really is missles. Missles really suck 'cause they don't track, negating your speed/orbit advantage. As for PVP, the only thing the Harbi has is the drones. And when you concider I can web, approach, hit F1-F4 and insta-pop any drone, then orbit out of the Harbi's optimal at 550m/s (orbit speed, not top speed) The Harbi can't hit you, and if it does you're out of optimal. And it has no drones left. My suggestion? Use the Harbi while you train up the rest of your skills. When you can use the Zealot with T2 guns, it truly is the better ship. EDIT:Dammit I posted this as the wrong character. Main char is SSRat
Koryvarn Amarr Liberty Rogues Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.01 14:51:00 - [23] Edited by: Koryvarn on 01/07/2007 14:50:29 The harby is an uber PvE ship in my experience, though I can't fly HACS yet. 7x heavy Pulses 1x Tractor beam (or Salvager) 1x AB 3 x Cap Recharger 2x specific hardener 2x specific hardener 1 x heat sink 1 x MAR Enough grid / cpu to go fully T2 if you can use it. With all T1, enough tank for tripple 1.8 million BS rats, nevermind lvl 3 missions, though sometimes you have to fly to the rats which can be a bit of a pain. Enough gank to kill anything that comes within 20km easily, with the exception of Angel Cartel, who can take a bit of time to kill. If you got AWU5 I'm pretty sure you can fit beams instead of pulses and rain death from afar though you'd need your drones to take care of some of the faster frigs (or pop them when they're at 30km + away). Also, Nos are pretty useless in missions, at least lvl 3's. And make sure you tank for the dmg type the NPCs in the missions do. Sansha is EM / Thermal, Serpentis is Kinetic / explosive, and err, I can't remember the rest. Mail me in game if you want the full list.
Khonsu Rest home for Tired Seadogs	Posted - 2007.07.01 18:17:00 - [24] Edited by: Khonsu on 01/07/2007 18:22:13 For me, Zealot without a doubt. You do NOT need drones whatsoever, you pop everything easily with beams, and the Zealot's speed makes it the winner. I have very high both zealot and harbinger related skills. Managing drones just slows down the process in my opinion. Harbinger has 5% damage bonus, but Zealot has that plus rate of fire bonus, hence needing fewer guns.
Mindy Moobah Caldari Tech Five Giants	Posted - 2007.07.01 18:18:00 - [25] zealot, hands down Evil Girl You are going too fast! Wait a minute and try again.

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