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Why do caldari have to train more for tech 2 missles?

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uaheuhaeuh	Posted - 2007.06.25 02:30:00 - [1] Just as an example, If someone wants to train for med hybrid guns, they just have to train medium hybrid turret to lvl 5 and then they can use both rails and blasters. But if someone wants to train for med missles, they have to choose between heavy missles or heavy assault missles. What gives?
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.25 02:31:00 - [2] Check again. You need to train light hybrids to lvl 5, then light blaster spec to lvl 4 and light railgun spec to lvl 4, then med hybrids to lvl 5, then med blaster spec and med railgun spec to lvl 1.
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.06.25 02:34:00 - [3] yes but t2 hams, and t2 heavy missles does infact require more sp then t2 medium blasters and t2 medium rails.
Tenebrious Quantum Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.25 02:46:00 - [4] What is this? Missiles and turrets are not exactly the same? Call 911!
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.06.25 02:49:00 - [5] As a missile user with over 8m sps in missiles, and about 7m in turrets (for hybrids), I want to say this: Lol You now see the counterbalance to being able to not having to pretrain other missiles to V. Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.25 02:51:00 - [6] Originally by: KD.Fluffy yes but t2 hams, and t2 heavy missles does infact require more sp then t2 medium blasters and t2 medium rails. Heavy missiles spec requires: Heavy missile lvl V (rank 3 skill) Missile launcher op lvl V (rank 1 skill) Standard missile launcher op lvl III (rank 2 skill) By comparison, med blasters spec requires: Motion Prediction lvl IV (rank 2 skill) Small blaster spec lvl IV (rank 3 skill) Small hybrid turret lvl V (rank 1 skill) Medium Hybrid turret lvl V (rank 3 skill) Gunnery lvl III (rank 1 skill) Both have a rank 1 skill to lvl V and a rank 3 to lvl V. Now, heavy missiles spec needs a rank 2 skill to lvl 3, but med blasters spec needs a rank two to lvl 4, AND a rank 3 to lvl 4 and a rank 1 to lvl 3. So it is the med guns that take more SP, not missiles.
uaheuhaeuh	Posted - 2007.06.25 03:00:00 - [7] Edited by: uaheuhaeuh on 25/06/2007 03:02:52 Ok we have hybrids and missles, each one has two different kinds of guns, short and long range . With missles, you have to train two separate skills to 5 if you want the short and long range, but with hybrids, just the one skill will get you the short and close range guns (blasters and rails) Also med guns was just an example.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.25 03:02:00 - [8] T2 missiles take FAR less SP to get than T2 guns. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.25 03:04:00 - [9] No Problem with this, but why do Cap Boosters require much harder Skills than Cap Reps? ;) Signature Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit on the forums. -Darth Patches
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.25 03:08:00 - [10] Originally by: uaheuhaeuh Edited by: uaheuhaeuh on 25/06/2007 03:02:52 Ok we have hybrids and missles, each one has two different kinds of guns, short and long range . With missles, you have to train two separate skills to 5 if you want the short and long range, but with hybrids, just the one skill will get you the short and close range guns (blasters and rails) Also med guns was just an example. I get what you mean now. This is balanced by the fact that you don't have to train the smaller missiles before to lvl V to get the bigger ones. For examples, you don't need standard missiles lvl V and Heavy missiles lvl V to get Cruise missile spec, while you need small hybrids lvl V, med hybrids lvl V and large hybrids lvl V to get T2 rails.

Fresh Prinz	Posted - 2007.06.25 03:09:00 - [11] Originally by: Namingway As a missile user with over 8m sps in missiles, and about 7m in turrets (for hybrids), I want to say this: Lol You now see the counterbalance to being able to not having to pretrain other missiles to V. so true, i traded my caldari character in for a gallente one because of the differnce:P
Aerin Cloudfayr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.25 04:43:00 - [12] A simple misunderstanding? Either way, I prefer to view all the pre-requisites as extremely beneficial. Sharpshooter 5 for T2 Large Beams/Artillery/Railguns is rather good to have. (b^-')b T1->T2 = +20% range, +25% range again for sharpshooter V = incredibly sock rocking results Although the argument could be that "Turret users can use turrets more effectively when they get them", which could be mollified by "because we train our asses off for them"
Empire marketslave	Posted - 2007.06.25 05:27:00 - [13] Yes and When i Trainned for T2 L projectiles i had to train both autocannon and arty small->5 med->5 in addition to the seperate surport skills ->5
Xoduse Gallente Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.06.25 05:31:00 - [14] compare how much training time it takes to get t2 torps on a raven for PVP compared to how long it takes to get T2 Blasters for a mega in PVP. Besides, if everything were exactly the same, where would the fun be? ---------------------
uaheuhaeuh	Posted - 2007.06.25 06:11:00 - [15] Well think of it this way: Those extra skills that are required are usefull skills that you will train anyways. If I want to train for missles, I have to train the two skills, but for guns I only have to train one skill, and some other skills that I would have trained anyways.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 06:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix T2 missiles take FAR less SP to get than T2 guns. One T2 missile takes far less SP than T2 guns. But if you want to train for all of them it takes more SP. Originally by: Empire marketslave Yes and When i Trainned for T2 L projectiles i had to train both autocannon and arty small->5 med->5 in addition to the seperate surport skills ->5 No, you didn't. There are no small autocannon / artillery skills, just small projectiles. Same goes for medium and large.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.25 06:24:00 - [17] Originally by: Incantare Originally by: Vicious Phoenix T2 missiles take FAR less SP to get than T2 guns. One T2 missile takes far less SP than T2 guns. But if you want to train for all of them it takes more SP. Originally by: Empire marketslave Yes and When i Trainned for T2 L projectiles i had to train both autocannon and arty small->5 med->5 in addition to the seperate surport skills ->5 No, you didn't. There are no small autocannon / artillery skills, just small projectiles. Same goes for medium and large. Missiles take so few SP to use effectively it's a joke. BUYING ZAINOU 'DEADEYE' ZGL1000 IMPLANTS, PAYING WELL, CONVO/MAIL IN-GAME
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.25 06:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Incantare No, you didn't. There are no small autocannon / artillery skills, just small projectiles. Same goes for medium and large. Small autocannon and artillery specialization. Look it up.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 06:31:00 - [19] He didn't say anything about specialization.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.25 06:44:00 - [20] Missiles are too hard to train and really complicated to use. Yet somehow, preferable choice of farmers... -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.

Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 06:48:00 - [21] Originally by: LUKEC Missiles are too hard to train and really complicated to use. Yet somehow, preferable choice of farmers... Way to miss the point, no one here has been saying missiles were "hard to train", getting one t2 missile type is faster, maxing the tree is not. So missile users have an advantage at the start but are worse off in the long run, I fail to see a problem.
kill0rbunny Alpha-Hirogen Phoenix Allianz	Posted - 2007.06.25 07:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Incantare Way to miss the point, no one here has been saying missiles were "hard to train", getting one t2 missile type is faster, maxing the tree is not. So missile users have an advantage at the start but are worse off in the long run, I fail to see a problem. Usually you use one kind of missile on your preferred type of ship. Op has no clue really. Try actually training for large blasters and railguns. Doin it atm, sux really. I pew therefore I am.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.25 07:05:00 - [23] Originally by: Incantare Originally by: LUKEC Missiles are too hard to train and really complicated to use. Yet somehow, preferable choice of farmers... Way to miss the point, no one here has been saying missiles were "hard to train", getting one t2 missile type is faster, maxing the tree is not. So missile users have an advantage at the start but are worse off in the long run, I fail to see a problem. For me, training torps takes one rank 5 skill to lvl5. Training another gun takes rank 1, rank 3, rank 5 skill to lvl5 and then for one gun: rank 3 lvl4, rank 5 lvl4. Then I can use another race large gun and this is without training support skill. And don't get me started about support skills for missiles, you don't need more than missile projection lvl3 and missile bombardment lvl3 to have more range than any t2 gun with t2 ammo. -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
Gyro DuAquin1 Tri Optimum Ev0ke	Posted - 2007.06.25 07:16:00 - [24] Edited by: Gyro DuAquin1 on 25/06/2007 07:15:23 Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Incantare Originally by: LUKEC Missiles are too hard to train and really complicated to use. Yet somehow, preferable choice of farmers... Way to miss the point, no one here has been saying missiles were "hard to train", getting one t2 missile type is faster, maxing the tree is not. So missile users have an advantage at the start but are worse off in the long run, I fail to see a problem. For me, training torps takes one rank 5 skill to lvl5. Training another gun takes rank 1, rank 3, rank 5 skill to lvl5 and then for one gun: rank 3 lvl4, rank 5 lvl4. Then I can use another race large gun and this is without training support skill. And don't get me started about support skills for missiles, you don't need more than missile projection lvl3 and missile bombardment lvl3 to have more range than any t2 gun with t2 ammo. which is absolut useless as even with maxed skills missles will take an age to get there. On the topics, imo its cool that not very weapon system in eve is the same and it takes different times to train, and id guess you shouldnt complain about it.
Chi Quan Jade Phoenix Deutschland Event-Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.25 08:32:00 - [25] i trained missiles and guns from the start on, an i currently have 1.3M in hybrids and 430k skillpoints in launchers, and i fare far better with missiles than with guns. missiles may be a little unpractical for small scale ganks due to their flight time, but are good weapons in fleet engagements. also due to the different ways guns and missiles work, you cnat really compare them. guns are streight forward (lock, f1, f2...), missiles require a bit of skill to use, and their flight time may give them the ability to do damage even after the shooter warped out. plus FOFs don't require locking and are imune to EWF (yes, they need some playing skill to use effectively). also if for some reason your torps can't damage the target you should switch the launcher and downgrade. this point is valid for gunusers aswell, they have to downgrade when shooting agile targets or when the p-grid is tight. take the caracal, it can fit a full rack of heavy launchers without sacrificing tank (won't even talk about the drake), the thorax can't fit a full rack of neutrons without being either very expensive or tankless, same goes for the brutix. -- Tempus fugit --
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 08:43:00 - [26] Some numbers to put things into perspective: --------------------------------------------------- SP required to use t2 Siege: 1.1 million SP required to use t2 large blasters: 3.4 million --------------------------------------------------- SP required for t2 Siege and t2 Cruise: 2.6 million SP required for t2 large blasters and rails: 4.3 million ---------------------------------------------------- SP required to use all t2 hybrids: 4.3 million SP required to use all t2 launchers: 4.9 million ---------------------------------------------------- SP required to max out the missile tree (doesn't include defenders): 21.2 million SP SP required to max out hybrids and support skills: 14.6 million SP, it's less for autocannons because of controlled burst. SP required to max out the gunnery tree (all turrets, doesn't include WU/AWU): 38.6 million SP for three weapon systems.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Incantare Lukec: Missile users have to train all RoF fire and damage skills, obviously, but missile projection is vital as well. Missile bombardment is less useful though. Vital to lvl4. lvl5 is quite useless unless if you want to shoot stuff at 150km with phoenix or cerb... yeah i know you all fit sensor boosters to ravens. Rapid launch and warhead upgrades are as vital as rapid firing and surgical strike for guns. Quote: Killorbunny: Yes it's faster to train for a single t2 launcher but afterwards you can only use that t2 launcher, whereas with turrets once you are done training for say large blasters there are no other level five skills required for large railguns and being able to use all t2 hybrids takes less time than all t2 missiles. It's a tradeoff. I don't fly frigs. I don't fly destroyers. I don't need that and I don't want that. I have all missile skills on my caldari char but i don't remember using frig/inty for almost a year. As caldari you can easily skip heavy assaults and rockets. HAM is only good on cerb for npcing and rockets were good on crows when inty duels were actually happening. -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 10:04:00 - [28] Edited by: Incantare on 25/06/2007 10:08:11 Originally by: LUKEC Vital to lvl4. lvl5 is quite useless unless if you want to shoot stuff at 150km with phoenix or cerb... yeah i know you all fit sensor boosters to ravens. I don't consider that skill important because of the range bonus (though it is welcome) but because it shortens the delay between firing a missile and the target taking damage, and that's true at any range. Also, higher missile velocity translates into more dps dealt over an engagement. Quote: I don't fly frigs. I don't fly destroyers. I don't need that and I don't want that. I have all missile skills on my caldari char but i don't remember using frig/inty for almost a year. I fully realize that being able to chose what to train is an advantage but my argument is that it's counterbalanced by having to spend more time training each t2 launcher then a gunnery user has to per gun. It may not apply to you but it is still a disadvantage of missiles.
trouser boy The Eve Pacification Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.25 10:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Xoduse compare how much training time it takes to get t2 torps on a raven for PVP compared to how long it takes to get T2 Blasters for a mega in PVP. Besides, if everything were exactly the same, where would the fun be? But then you can use every gunship below your battleship (if you have the spaceship command prequisites). The Raven pilot can still only fly a Raven. Swings and roundabouts.
Ivorian	Posted - 2007.06.25 10:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Incantare Edited by: Incantare on 25/06/2007 09:29:57 Some numbers to put things into perspective: --------------------------------------------------- SP required to use t2 Siege: 1.1 million SP required to use t2 large blasters: 3.4 million --------------------------------------------------- SP required for t2 Siege and t2 Cruise: 2.6 million SP required for t2 large blasters and rails: 4.3 million ---------------------------------------------------- SP required to use all t2 hybrids: 4.3 million SP required to use all t2 launchers: 4.9 million ---------------------------------------------------- SP required to max out the missile tree (doesn't include defenders): 21.2 million SP SP required to max out hybrids and support skills: 15.6 million SP, it's less for autocannons because of controlled burst. SP required to max out the gunnery tree (all turrets, doesn't include WU/AWU or TWT ): 42 million SP for three weapon systems. Lukec: Missile users have to train all RoF fire and damage skills, obviously, but missile projection is vital as well. Missile bombardment is less useful though. Killorbunny: Yes it's faster to train for a single t2 launcher but afterwards you can only use that t2 launcher, whereas with turrets once you are done training for say large blasters there is one other level five skill required for large railguns and being able to use all t2 hybrids takes less time than all t2 missiles. It's a tradeoff. So you compare all missiles to one Gun type? Try: All Missiles to T2: 4.9 million All Guns to T2: 12.9 million It may be that if you want all its harder with missiles. BUT: its far easier to specialize with missiles than it is with guns. If you know you only use Siege or Cruise you can direct train for it. And you will be alot faster than someone who want to get Large T2 guns. So missiles is the easy, the fast way (dark way?).



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