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Anti-Missile-Laser

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Medea Nephtys	Posted - 2007.06.26 15:35:00 - [1] Edited by: Medea Nephtys on 26/06/2007 15:35:05 Hi folks! Since missiles seem to be much more powerful than most turret-weapons to me, I'd suggest to introduce a kind of "anti-missile-laser". This would be an alternative to those lousy defender missiles. I imagined the anti-missile-laser to work this way: You just activate the laser (high-slot), which will then automatically shoot at nearby enemy missiles. The rate of fire should be about 2 seconds (since you can load defender missiles on a rocket launcher, which has 4 seconds rof and hits more often). The damage-amount has to be about the same the defender missiles do, so you don't have to shoot three or more times at a torpedo to get it down (that would make the anti-laser kind of senseless). Skills can affect the tracking-speed, range and damage of the laser, although I don't know if 25% damage-bonus would change anything to a one-shot-kill-function. This module would boost Amarr a bit, weakening the (in my opinion) overpowered missiles (which nearly always hit, do a lot of damage and even can be used against any resistence type, not to mention the FoF-missiles you use, when you are in jamming-lock). The difference between the defender missiles and my anti-missile laser would be, that the defenders hit everytime (as it is now), but the laser hits incoming missiles aimed directly at you better than the ones that are flying to your comrades (tracking speed). Medea Nephtys
Jamira Thamming	Posted - 2007.06.26 15:42:00 - [2] /signed
Rilder Caldari THC LTD	Posted - 2007.06.26 17:51:00 - [3] Missiles are already weaker then guns in the fact that they have to travel to there target, plus there damage is affected by sig radius and speed, to be honest if anything missiles need a boost... Visit my blog =)http://rilderslog.blogspot.com/
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.26 17:57:00 - [4] Edited by: ghosttr on 26/06/2007 17:55:39 Originally by: Rilder Missiles are already weaker then guns in the fact that they have to travel to there target, plus there damage is affected by sig radius and speed, to be honest if anything missiles need a boost... Missiles are fine Tell me any other weapon where you can just choose any damage type you want Critical hits boost Amarr damage
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.06.26 18:10:00 - [5] Originally by: ghosttr Edited by: ghosttr on 26/06/2007 17:55:39 Originally by: Rilder Missiles are already weaker then guns in the fact that they have to travel to there target, plus there damage is affected by sig radius and speed, to be honest if anything missiles need a boost... Missiles are fine Tell me any other weapon where you can just choose any damage type you want Projectiles. btw heve you ever fly missile boat in combat ? probaly not otherwise you will know thet switching missile types in PVP is highly overrated. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Guilliman R Gallente PRO Space Hunters Federation Of united Corps	Posted - 2007.06.26 18:13:00 - [6] but guns are highly subjecteble to distance, missiles are not sig needs colour, cookie to mod who adds something!
Medea Nephtys	Posted - 2007.06.26 18:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Rilder Missiles are already weaker then guns in the fact that they have to travel to there target, plus there damage is affected by sig radius and speed, to be honest if anything missiles need a boost... And guns are not affected by sig-radius and speed? Actually, the gun's damage is not affected by these factors, but their chance to hit is.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.06.26 18:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Guilliman R but guns are highly subjecteble to distance, missiles are not but missile are highly subjestabel to flight time, guns are not Is this another missile versus guns tread ? Everyone knows that missiles and missile boats have serous gaps and their advetages are mostly usefull in PVE only. I dont see any reason why everyone especialy ammars are crying for nerfing missiles/boats when pulse battleship has higher DPS and almost similar range to torpedo raven, and usually it will be decisive winner of any engagement. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Medea Nephtys Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2007.06.26 18:43:00 - [9] Okay, even if we assume that missiles and guns are equally balanced cough, then the anti-missile-laser would be a cool addition to variety in EvE. Since I don't like using missile launchers in EvE (i hate to care about ammo g), I'd think it would be a cool option to install a laser with the same functionality as the defenders. It has more style in my opinion. Pew pew!
Syekuda Caldari Guys With Strippers	Posted - 2007.06.26 18:43:00 - [10] close this post its useless, def missile exist for that specific task /no sign and used the paper for my @r$
Max Kolonko Caldari Domini Umbrus	Posted - 2007.06.26 19:14:00 - [11] exactly DEFENDER missiles - so drop the subject Max Kolonko
Yamichi Wiggin Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.26 19:39:00 - [12] no you're a bad person ok that was harsh but this is a lousy idea. Every weapon has tradeoffs. Lasers and hybrids get the finger because you can't vary damage types. Missiles suck because at range, they don't even get to the target half the time. Projectiles suck because... well actually, they seem pretty cool. What's more, missiles are the only weapon with an actual countermeasure already in place! Defender missiles exist. Where is my anti-projectile countermeasure? Or my laser deflection field? or my railgun blocker thingy? You want another counter to missiles?? boo to you. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body. There is no love in fear
Quinter Servarosius	Posted - 2007.06.26 21:20:00 - [13] Edited by: Quinter Servarosius on 26/06/2007 21:19:09 2nd tought not signed at all :p
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.06.26 21:45:00 - [14] Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 26/06/2007 21:46:53 Originally by: Yamichi Wiggin no you're a bad person ok that was harsh but this is a lousy idea. Every weapon has tradeoffs. Lasers and hybrids get the finger because you can't vary damage types. Missiles suck because at range, they don't even get to the target half the time. Projectiles suck because... well actually, they seem pretty cool. What's more, missiles are the only weapon with an actual countermeasure already in place! Defender missiles exist. Where is my anti-projectile countermeasure? Or my laser deflection field? or my railgun blocker thingy? You want another counter to missiles?? boo to you. Tracking disruptor Which is actually universally usable and not just restricted to ships with a free launcher slot removed inaccurate statement. Crystal-Slave, that way?
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2007.06.26 23:48:00 - [15] I'd like to see something like this, but what I'd like to see it as is a slow long lasting beam (the effect lingers for a second or 2), which slowly burns up the incoming missile) and have it with a high rate of fire. So it selects a target and begins firing quickly, takes a second or 2 to deal with it, during which time the beam is always on, then picks a new incoming missile and begins firing quickly again. A new tool in the fight for balance?
Asethe Miraban Gallente Shaolin Legacy	Posted - 2007.06.27 00:01:00 - [16] What might be a better option is the introduction of two things: 1. Flak ammo for all turrets. This would give the races like Amarr and Gallente a choice much like the missile users have with defenders. 2. A mid slot e-war module that would work like ecm. The missiles would be given a Lock Rating like sensor rating without the specific type, and the module would have a chance to break that lock, rendering the missile harmless as it flies into the distance or detonates prematurely. It should require the missile ship to be targeted, much like a turret disruptor does, and would have an effect on every missile that ship fired. This shouldn't be too hard as ECM is already well tested, and the same system could be used for the module. While missiles should not be nerfed, they do need to have countermeasures introduced to allow the players the option of sacrificing a slot to reduce their effectiveness, as all of the turreted weapons already have. The truth can normally be found halfway between the winners and the whiners
Rilder Caldari THC LTD	Posted - 2007.06.27 00:35:00 - [17] Originally by: Asethe Miraban What might be a better option is the introduction of two things: 1. Flak ammo for all turrets. This would give the races like Amarr and Gallente a choice much like the missile users have with defenders. Ive had this idea for the longest time but as an Anti-drone and maybe even anti-frigate ammo/weapon, and also a smaller rapid firing flak cannon for destroyers. Visit my blog =)http://rilderslog.blogspot.com/
Asethe Miraban Gallente Shaolin Legacy	Posted - 2007.06.27 00:50:00 - [18] The advantage of an ammo type over a general turret is that it can be changed back to normal use by changing ammo, and it also benefits from the specific turret skills. If it were to fit fully as a defender equivalent, it would need its own skill to function, though even one point would be enough to use. The thought was to create a direct equivalent of defenders for the mostly turret using races. Drones and small frigs can be dealt with already by both missiles and turrets using the smaller or higher tracking varieties. There are also smart bombs, which are notably more effective against drones and frigates than against a staggered missile volley. ---------------------- The truth can normally be found halfway between the winners and the whiners
Medea Nephtys Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2007.06.27 01:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Asethe Miraban What might be a better option is the introduction of two things: 1. Flak ammo for all turrets. This would give the races like Amarr and Gallente a choice much like the missile users have with defenders. While missiles should not be nerfed, they do need to have countermeasures introduced to allow the players the option of sacrificing a slot to reduce their effectiveness, as all of the turreted weapons already have. 100% agreed to this point!
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.27 03:23:00 - [20] Edited by: Tovarishch on 27/06/2007 03:26:27 Originally by: Medea Nephtys Originally by: Asethe Miraban What might be a better option is the introduction of two things: 1. Flak ammo for all turrets. This would give the races like Amarr and Gallente a choice much like the missile users have with defenders. While missiles should not be nerfed, they do need to have countermeasures introduced to allow the players the option of sacrificing a slot to reduce their effectiveness, as all of the turreted weapons already have. 100% agreed to this point! Here is a quote taken from my thread located here - Originally by: Tovarishch 'I've had this discussion for a couple years in the 'Ships and Modules' forum. The concept that there should be a module that should affect missile explosion radius and velocity is fine... IF you please also give us the equivalent of a Tracking Enhancer or Tracking Computer. Before you say, 'But you have Target Painters!'... Target Painters are for turrets also. Missile users have no module that is specifically designed to improve explosion velocity and radius.' Turrets have counters because they also have modules that provide bonuses (Tracking Computers and Tracking Enhancers). Not to mention, ECM is an excellent counter to missiles because once a missile pilot loses lock their missiles go flying off into space. Fix missiles in PVE and PVP... then start talking about counters. This anti-missile laser idea would utterly castrate missiles in PVP... as if they need to be worse than they are currently. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Cz Ire Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.06.27 05:22:00 - [21] target velocity, sig radius, distance, apply (diffrently, i admit) to both turrets and missles. missles remain, however, the ONLY weapon that is guarenteed to hit at any range from 0m to 100+km. and depending on what your flying, sometimes a missle ship can be your worst nightmare. Yes, there are situations where a missle boat is inferior to a gunship, but that applies the other way as well. and, lets be honest - missles are a LOT less skill intensive than turrets to be effective. Defender missles are a joke, seriously, can anyone say they are worth useing? the flak ammo for turrets isnt a bad idea, but i still like the idea of an AMS midslot. my origional idea was to just have the tracking disruptor effect missles (explosion radius increase, or RoF increase, or something) but perhaps having a single module that nerfs both weapon systems may be too much. so, /signed for either the midslot AMS or flak ammo. --- "They saw the long road, the harder road. The road that would ensure what we had gained in the vicious rebellion would not be squandered... our freedom." - Republic Fleet Admiral Kanth Filmir
Riven Starkill Caldari Regalis Industria Scientia Entreprendre Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.06.27 06:25:00 - [22] Edited by: Riven Starkill on 27/06/2007 06:25:52 Originally by: Cz Ire Edited by: Cz Ire on 27/06/2007 05:25:11 target velocity, sig radius, distance, apply (diffrently, i admit) to both turrets and missles. missles remain, however, the ONLY weapon that is guarenteed NOT to hit at any range *unless* you have the target scrammed. I had to fix that for you. Ok. So maybe that is a bit sarcastic, but have you ever had a target locked in PVP, only to have him fly off before your rounds can even land - BUT AFTER he has already smoked you with 2 volleys? Even in small ships using faster missiles, the missile velocity with Missile Projection at V still requires up to 10 seconds to hit the target at max range (or if the target is moving...) Your turrets on a small ship have landed how many volleys on me in that time??? This is a serious consideration. The turret lobbey keeps forgetting that. I cannot count the number of times this has happened to me. Another serious consideration that is never acknowledged by the turret lobbey is that missiles are also completely defeated by speed. There is an absolute maximum threshold for ALL ships and ALL users for the Explosion Velocity of missiles. Even the precision missiles have pathetically low EVs. Even post IS-nerf, ships are still flying in excess of 6km/s on a regular basis. The absolute best missile (light precision) with max skills and an implant cannot hope to have thier EV match that speed. This means that speed will always trump missiles. There is no similar maximum threshold for turrets - and please don't try to compare your heavy pulse lasers in your Abbadon to my bloodclaw light precisions in my Flycatcher. Take a look at light turrets. You have the mods to affect your tracking to the point that you can still hit a target moving at that speed - yes - your damage is reduced, but you can at least damage the target. Beyond 4500m/s, most missile users cannot damage an opponent. This number is reduced dramatically as you move up in the size of your missiles. Torpedoes cannot damage anything flying above 1000m/s AT ANY RANGE. Please don't forget that last bit. What we need is a mod to affect the target velocity - much like the Target Navigation Prediction skill does now. In fact, I do not believe that a NEW mod is required - simply apply the same bonuses for tracking found in the tracking computer to missiles. /problem solved. This mod would "predict" the path of the target and allow the user to give his missiles a vector to target that puts the missile more squarely in the path of the target - meaning thier relative speed is reduced. This is also forgotten by the turret lobby. I suggest you read Tov's post about balancing missiles. It is a good suggestion. IF CCP approved his change AND they gave us some kind of mod to assist missiles for target velocity, then I would be in agreement that there needs to be some kind of turret-based counter to missiles. Originally by: Cz Ire Edited by: Cz Ire on 27/06/2007 05:25:11... and, lets be honest - missles are a LOT less skill intensive than turrets to be effective. Defender missles are a joke, seriously, can anyone say they are worth useing? Yes, they are less skill intensive. Which is another reason why I also agreed with Neurmandis' suggestion to make missiles a secondary weapon like drones are for drone boats. Yes, defenders are broken - and should remain so until CCP balances missiles for PVP.
Rilder Caldari THC LTD	Posted - 2007.06.27 06:51:00 - [23] How about adding a tracking enhancer type thing for missiles... Though this doesn't affect explosion velocity.. "Inverse Tractor emitter" Med slot (or low slot?) Before missile launch a mini-tractor emitters lock onto missiles and once launch start inverse tractoring the missile away from the ship as fast as possible pushing the missile speed up by 250(maybe 500) M/s every second it's withen 20Km (maybe 10) of the ship the missile is launched from, Once the missile is out of the Inverse tractor emitters range the missile retains the speed it had but can only go its launched range due to more fuel being expended to compensate for the higher speed. Visit my blog =)http://rilderslog.blogspot.com/
Xtro 2 Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:13:00 - [24] Originally by: ghosttr Edited by: ghosttr on 26/06/2007 17:55:39 Originally by: Rilder Missiles are already weaker then guns in the fact that they have to travel to there target, plus there damage is affected by sig radius and speed, to be honest if anything missiles need a boost... Missiles are fine Tell me any other weapon where you can just choose any damage type you want drones. Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder.
Xtro 2 Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:15:00 - [25] smartbombs blow up missiles, in 2003 i used to fly an apoc with 2 on staggered auto repeat to destroy incoming npc or pirate missiles (mind you missiles were slower then), i think torpedos require more than 1 smartbomb hit these days unless i misread that somewhere. Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder.
Yamichi Wiggin Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:34:00 - [26] I think I miss-stated my botheration... No. Though I will say that the idea of anti-missile ammo for a gun makes some sense for balance in that a ship without launcher hardpoints can't fire defender missiles. That option might balance things but they make no sense from a story POV. Missiles target things. The launcher is simply a big tube that you put the missiles in. You program them to hit a specific target and they go after it. Changing from a sabot round to a 12 gauge doesn't change what the shotgun is aimed at. you point the gun at something and fire your round. So a different crystal, a different hybrid slug, a different projectile shell simply doesn't make sense to be changing how the turret functions. There should NOT be the exact same stuff for everything. part of the fun of this game is the variations. If everything has an exact answer then there's no real variation. There SHOULD be tradeoffs. Missiles let you choose your exact damage type and don't have a concern for optimal range. There are skills that directly impact your explosion radius and explosion velocity. There are no mods that are specific to missiles for these because there are skills that do it. Guns have instant strike and alpha strike. They have a wider range of possible damage output but guns have a narrower effective operating range. you can fit mods that impact your tracking speed and range but there's no mod and no skill that alters your gun's signature resolution (as said, TPs work for all weapons and don't change you gun- they change the target). There are trade offs because that's part of the FUN! Figure out what makes you happy and do it. I fly my raven in PvP and yes, at long range is ****es me off to have a megathron pop off 2-3 volleys before my first volley even hits him. But if he's sniping, I can get inside 30km and then he can barely touch me. if he's a blasterthron, I run like a schoolgirl and start pinging him from 60+km off. if you show up in a gunboat, you're either short range, long range, or mixed and thus at half dps no matter what your range is. Missiles don't have that problem. If you're at 120km or 3km, my missiles will hit you. Conversely, a missile hits the same every time. I have no chance of getting a 1750 hp alpha strike off a T2 cruise missile. But I've taken exactly that hit from a blasterthron. All things should not be equal in all situations. Some weapons are better for a situation than others. That's why my alt is gallente. Variety is the spice of life. If you make it so the only difference between the ships is what they look like and how cute the avatar is, this game turns to rubbish. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body. There is no love in fear

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