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Dawson
Caldari
FATAL REVELATIONS
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.26 22:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dawson on 26/06/2007 22:40:41
Improved logging - Reimbursement
I've recently experienced a loss ingame, based around Sundays big lag problems. The ending result of the reimbursement was a big 0.
Avoiding what happened to me personally, the reason why GM's void your claim has nothing to do with them believing the event etc its to do with insufficient resources at there end when looking at logs to prove the case happened or not.
Do ccp plan or has there been any thought on improved logging?
I would like to think that in putting up with the lag issues that happen all so often these days that when things went wrong due to bugs/lag I have no fear that I will be reimbursed if the fault is truly with the game/server.
In my instance I spent like 30 minutes floating at a gate waiting for something to loads/respond I crash, re logged etc. Was over a hour before finally getting back in game. My screen shots, and little logs I have of the experience are void due to not accepting player given proof and I guess, rightly so to avoid cheats.
But as I mentioned before it would be nice to think in putting up with these lag problems they can have better logging to reimburse you when said problems arise, as it stands Gm's are currently clearly under equipped to deal with these problems, especially if there logs show no fault over something that lasted an hour.
I'm sure many others have had these problems like me, I'd like to know if ccp have any intentions of improving logging or improving the logs GM's have available/access to in dealing with such matters.
Would be better if ccp fix the lag issue but this isn't something your going to see over night, and most probably something were always going to have to deal with on a game with this epic scale. On the other hand compensation where its due should be possible more regularly and not thrown out due to insufficient logs.
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JSO Milic
JSO Intel
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:36:00 -
[2]
I recently lost a ship to similar problem. The main issue on my end though was poor internet service, my ISP connection completely dropped during a mission. I quickly tried to relog on, thinking that a record of my quick relogging-in might help when it came too petition my loss. My petition was still denied. I was dissappointed, however I accept CCP's decision. I can recover from my loss in about a month though. Had I experienced a severly more expensive loss, I probably would of been discouraged from continuing to play Eve. It is my belief that they have a policy in order to protect from abusing reimbursements by users. Users need to respect this. However I also feel that Real Life events on the Users side can seriously affect game play. An invidual's computer could crash, their net connection could drop, a power outage could occur, etc. The best thing that Users can do is perhaps try an encourage some more development of protection for the User in dealing with these technical difficulties. I am not a tech geek, so I don't know if or whats possible, but perhaps some kind of protection could be embedded on the Users end, such as logs kept by the Eve client or something else. 
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:54:00 -
[3]
A more proper solution would be to have a scriptable AI that takes over your ship for 15 mins when you get disconnected. No magic ship disappearings
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Stellar Vix
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:02:00 -
[4]
yoru proper solution si going to get people ganked everywhere...
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400x120 13kbs...
SWA Qualified Instructor and Mascot or sorts
Ensign Stellar Vix |
Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:07:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Stellar Vix
yoru proper solution si going to get people ganked everywhere...
No
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Stellar Vix
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:09:00 -
[6]
why not? it wont be able to manage system travel, combat it will be more useless than fof drones most likely or first aggro, it would leave reppers on with no concern for cap if engaged in combat. How about no automatic warp backs under disconnect?
=========
400x120 13kbs...
SWA Qualified Instructor and Mascot or sorts
Ensign Stellar Vix |
Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:21:00 -
[7]
You are making too many negative assumptions. AI can perform better than most players in tactical situations. It only has problem with long term strategic planning, which isn't necessary for 15 minutes of play
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Mechanical Death
Minmatar
Chosen Path
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:21:00 -
[8]
Lag you say? At this point in the game and after 4+ years of playing, it's quite obvious they aren't capable of fixing or even reducing lag and us as players must either accept that fact and keep playing or go play something else. Imo, Rev 2/Need for Speed has made lag worse although nodes seem to crash less often.. which does no one any good if our screens don't load, etc.
Improved and more detailed logging would likely just add to the server/db load and make things worse and even more unplayable. But I do agree with you, 2 billion chine.. I mean, 300 petitions from 300 people in the same system from the same game time can't all be wrong.
Chosen Path [CHSN]
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.06.27 03:35:00 -
[9]
The GM must have rolled three or under. What you want him to roll is four, five or six.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Marcus Kartum
Free Mercenaries Union
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:29:00 -
[10]
I can see only one solution to that. Stop fighting! Yes, i know how it sounds, but think about it. CCP is encouraging everyone to build bigger ships and fight in epic battles, however they are totally unable to provide us with enough hardware resources to do such... or they just don't care, which is more likely for me after the answer of one of GM's in my petition. And that is just hypocrisy!
So c'mon, no more battles bigger than 50 vs 50, no more POS warfare and lets see what they are going to do.
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Splagada
Minmatar
Tides of Silence
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:11:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Splagada on 27/06/2007 08:10:15
The GM reply
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knifee
Caldari
Rage Academy
oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:09:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Splagada
Edited by: Splagada on 27/06/2007 08:10:15
The GM reply
your not allowed to post GM communications  
To the OP, tbh stick with it. if the GM is wrong tell him so, i've seen a few ships replaced recently after several weeks of explaining to the GMs why they were mistaken in not replaceing the ship originaly.
www.eve-dev.net - making a good thing better
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The Mantra
Caldari
Knights of Sovereignty
United Corporations of Eve
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:41:00 -
[13]
Edited by: The Mantra on 27/06/2007 10:40:04
Proper, detailed, logging systems cause bucketloads of lag.
No thanks!
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Lagerstars
Caldari
Free Mercenaries Union
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:08:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Lagerstars on 27/06/2007 11:07:29
Originally by: The Mantra
Edited by: The Mantra on 27/06/2007 10:40:04
Proper, detailed, logging systems cause bucketloads of lag.
This is the main problem - damned if you do and damned if you dont!
The issue is made worse by the same old copy paste bulls**t replies from the GM's who I very much doubt actually check anything 99% of the time.
And as stated above if theres a battle between a large group and 1 person moans then its gonna look like someone not wanting to face losing there ship, if a majority of people all complain about the same thing and just sit there getting shot taking no action at all, then common sense would tell you that chances are, they arent actually there to perform any actions and however you look at it, the issue is with them getting the data out to us, as nobody here is going to have an internet connection so slow that it couldnt play the game or a system of low enough spec to not handle it.
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Riho
Gallente
Magnificent Beavers
Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:27:00 -
[15]
i read these la thread every day... and so far... i have gotten ANY lag like you guys claim th 2 years i have played eve. maybe stop blobbing or stay away from systems where 500 missions are run. thats ofc hen you dont have crap ISP :P
maybe it because i live in low sec/0.0 and blob **** hit 500man fleet :P
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Sig killed by MODs.... reworking it
Great being Gallente... aint it ?
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YARRRR, sig hijack! -HornFrog
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:30:00 -
[16]
Edited by: d026 on 27/06/2007 11:30:21
Quote:
maybe stop blobbing or stay away from systems where 500 missions are run. thats ofc hen you dont have crap ISP :P
go away toll. if your enemy fields 100 bs you dont go with a 5 man recon gang. but on the topic. yeah i find it very hard to believe when 250 people are lagged to hell that there is no evidence at all server side. it should be evidence enough that 100 people who die without having seen theyre enemy writing petitions.
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Shoukei
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:33:00 -
[17]
Originally by: d026
go away toll. if your enemy fields 100 bs you dont go with a 5 man recon gang. but on the topic. yeah i find it very hard to believe when 250 people are lagged to hell that there is no evidence at all server side. it should be evidence enough that 100 people who die without having seen theyre enemy writing petitions.
all you need to do is bring more and more \o/
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:38:00 -
[18]
Quote:
all you need to do is bring more and more \o/
actually we brought 105 people and the enemy fielded 150.. so NO we didnt bring more, but you still dont go with 50 or 20 people. Is that so hard to understand? And if we are going to take over a system its just natural that the attacked trys to secure his system with all his force available.. So dont blame us that we play the game as ccp intends it to be played..
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Riggers Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: JSO Milic
I recently lost a ship to similar problem. The main issue on my end though was poor internet service, my ISP connection completely dropped during a mission. I quickly tried to relog on, thinking that a record of my quick relogging-in might help when it came too petition my loss. My petition was still denied. I was dissappointed, however I accept CCP's decision. I can recover from my loss in about a month though. Had I experienced a severly more expensive loss, I probably would of been discouraged from continuing to play Eve. It is my belief that they have a policy in order to protect from abusing reimbursements by users. Users need to respect this. However I also feel that Real Life events on the Users side can seriously affect game play. An invidual's computer could crash, their net connection could drop, a power outage could occur, etc. The best thing that Users can do is perhaps try an encourage some more development of protection for the User in dealing with these technical difficulties. I am not a tech geek, so I don't know if or whats possible, but perhaps some kind of protection could be embedded on the Users end, such as logs kept by the Eve client or something else.
CCP is not, can not and will not be responsible for players hardware and connection. As they themselves have stated, they reimburse if the server lags. If your ISP fails to live up to their end of the bargain, petition them to reimburse your loss in EvE, as they are to blame.
The eve client already keep a lot of logs. Chat logs, combat logs and probably some we don't even see. In the combat logs are also stated movements and actions. Also actions that are replied with the "Action underway, please wait" (iirc).
So you can add the log to the petition to the GM (in case of the major fleet battle) and the GM's might be able to reimburse you. But any reimbursement will probably take a few months before they happen, as the fault in the client has to be determind, then analysed as a regular lag/sync problem and then the reimbursement will happen. But by then, all those that has lost a ship and send a petition will have a new ship. When they suddenly are deducted 120mill from their wallet (resulting in negative wallet) and given a half fitted ship, they will ***** and moan and cry on the forums again.
Best solution seen from CCP's point of view, is to not reimburse and save the 2nd round of crying.
JSO, this is not meant in any harsh way at you, you bring up a good point. And the above "can" sounds pretty angry, which is not the tone I want 
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Rantanplan
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:47:00 -
[20]
in case of changing the behaviour of gm -> reimburstment after lag or connection-problems, i¦d never pay for my losses anymore, cause i pull the cable on my network while recognizing that im goin down.
petition - kaikka stuffed rattlesnake reimburstment - next try
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Lagerstars
Caldari
Free Mercenaries Union
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:09:00 -
[21]
I think on the issue of lag as well, do people actually check the amount of data they download from gameplay - cos it really isnt much at all as all the graphical stuff is already local - so to blame other peoples ISP is a very poor attempt at shifting the blame
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Kaar
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:37:00 -
[22]
To be fair, you and no one else put yourself in these positions 90% of the time.
You cant go to Jita at peak and then cry about undock lag - you knew it was laggy, you took the risk.
Same goes for fleet fights - what do you expect when jumping into a 300 man blob??
Unless the entire server starts lagging *or* it's some sort of localized lag that is not the players fault (like in a small fight with 20 in local) then it's your damn fault for jumping into these situations.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kaar
To be fair, you and no one else put yourself in these positions 90% of the time.
You cant go to Jita at peak and then cry about undock lag - you knew it was laggy, you took the risk.
Same goes for fleet fights - what do you expect when jumping into a 300 man blob??
Unless the entire server starts lagging *or* it's some sort of localized lag that is not the players fault (like in a small fight with 20 in local) then it's your damn fault for jumping into these situations.
How about if your home territory is being attacked by a fleet of 300? There's not much of choice then.
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tommit
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:21:00 -
[24]
emm.. they will smile and make more bob tools and concur their own little bob-online + rest
Originally by: Marcus Kartum
I can see only one solution to that. Stop fighting! Yes, i know how it sounds, but think about it. CCP is encouraging everyone to build bigger ships and fight in epic battles, however they are totally unable to provide us with enough hardware resources to do such... or they just don't care, which is more likely for me after the answer of one of GM's in my petition. And that is just hypocrisy!
So c'mon, no more battles bigger than 50 vs 50, no more POS warfare and lets see what they are going to do.
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tommit
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:29:00 -
[25]
although your paying for it not to, then its our fault that their system is not living up to theyre advatise?!
emmm.. hmm 1000+ pvp...emm yer right...
if they advatise for something they actually have to back it up or it is a fauls statement in the advatise and illegal in most country's
Originally by: Kaar
To be fair, you and no one else put yourself in these positions 90% of the time.
You cant go to Jita at peak and then cry about undock lag - you knew it was laggy, you took the risk.
Same goes for fleet fights - what do you expect when jumping into a 300 man blob??
Unless the entire server starts lagging *or* it's some sort of localized lag that is not the players fault (like in a small fight with 20 in local) then it's your damn fault for jumping into these situations.
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John McFly
Ganja Labs
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:54:00 -
[26]
It would be nice if CCP logged node deaths so anyone affected could get their ships back...
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Pehova Mindtriq
Endgame.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:59:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Riho
i read these la thread every day... and so far... i have gotten ANY lag like you guys claim th 2 years i have played eve. maybe stop blobbing or stay away from systems where 500 missions are run. thats ofc hen you dont have crap ISP :P
maybe it because i live in low sec/0.0 and blob **** hit 500man fleet :P
Pretty crappy soltion you got there. So are we just gonna avoid anything just because ccp can't fix the lagg? What is you can't have 3vs3 fights anymore because of lagg, should we avoid having them instead of complaining?
A few weeks ago we had a fight with about 25 people involved, everyone lagged with 1 frame every 30 seconds. This was not Jita and nobody "blobbed", it was a normal fight. I bet noone who lost their ship that fight got reimbursed because the logs couldn't show lagg. Should we avoid these sort of fights in the future because it might be laggy or should ccp do something about it?
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