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Ignition SemperFi
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.26 22:41:00 -
[1]
Where oh where CCP is the Shield equivalent of the 1600mm plate for armor tankers.
Not here to debate why one form of tanking is better than the other. Or why ppl dont think Caldari dont deserve it.
If there are BS classed armor plates why are there not BS classed Shield Extenders, now you say... well the LSE are ""BS classed""  ... but lets look at the stats..
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Stats of 1600mm reinforced steel plates II:
Armor Hp Bonus - 4200
powergrid usage - 575
CPU usage - 33
volume - 20 m3 packaged
Tech Level - 2
Mass Addition - 3750000
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Stats of a Large Shield Exteder II:
Shield HP bonus - 2625
powergrid usage - 165
CPU usage - 46
volume - 20 m3 packaged
Thermal dmg resistance - 1
Kinetic dmg resistance - 1
Explosive dmg resistance - 1
EM dmg resistance - 1
Tech Level - 2
Signature radius bonus - 25
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Now lets take a look at the armor tankers next step down in the evolution of size in armor tanking
Stats for 800mm reinforced steel plates II:
Armor Hp Bonus - 2103
powergrid usage -230
CPU usage - 28
volume - 20 m3 packaged
Tech Level - 2
Mass Addition - 1875000
There is 400 HP(the LSE has the more HP) difference between the 800mm II plates and the LSE II; but when comparing the two ""BS sized"" tanking extenders the difference is...
4200 - 2625 = 1575 HP difference
So say both tankers fit two ""bs classed"" extenders we now have
8400 HP for armor and 5250 HP for shield, leaving 3200 HP difference. This is basically giving the BS armor tanker 1 extra slot against a shield tanker. that already is using his PVP mid slots for a tank.
WHERE ARE THE XLARGE SHIELD EXTENDERS! Its not the item that will make or break the ship. But there should at least be some reasonable average between having items.
This is the equivilant to having BC sized lazers and saying they are BS classed while all the turret users have actual BS sized turrets as well as BCs sized turrets.(this is not the case but putting this into perspective)
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.26 23:37:00 -
[2]
Same reason there is no XLarge Armor Repairer, shield EANM, or armor invuln field. Shield tanking and armor tanking are different, and they don't need to have identical modules. Outside of this another reason is that shield extenders not only increase your shield hp but also increase your shield regeneration, and so a larger shield extender would probably lead to broken setups(ie passively shield tanked Dominix/Tempest with a bunch of shield power relays).
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William Hamilton
Caldari
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:55:00 -
[3]
^exactly, shield and armour are, and will always be, fundementaly different....
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Jennifer Meek
Gallente
Planck Bubble Generation Technologies
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Posted - 2007.06.27 03:19:00 -
[4]
I guess your forgetting how much powergrid the armor plates take.
It's much easier to fit the shield extenders than plates, and the powergrid usage on the plates dont even make sense.
50m Plates = 1PG (Laffo @ 131 armor bonus)
100m Plates = 5PG
200m Plates = 10PG
400m Plates = 30PG
800m Plates = 200PG
1600m Plates = 500PG
Why does a 800m Plate take up 6.6 times the PG of a 400m? It would make sense for it to be double, or maybe even 3 times the usage, but SIX TIMES?
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Jurgen Cartis
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:31:00 -
[5]
The 800mm and 160mm plates have those powergrid requirements to ensure that they are only used on Cruisers and larger. Otherwise you would see people shoehorning a 800mm plate onto a Punisher and having 3000+ armor on a frigate.
If they were double a 400mm plate's requirement, 60 MW, I could fit 3 MAPCs on a Punisher and fit the 800mm Plate (or two 800mm plates on a Retribution, hard but not impossible). Fortunately, they aren't and I don't have to worry about 6500 HP plated retributions
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MrTriggerHappy
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:33:00 -
[6]
Plus shield extenders create a bigger sig radius for the ship, where as armour plates slow you down..
Seriously what gives?
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Defcon One
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:47:00 -
[7]
Compare equipement by fitting, not just by the name...
the shield equipement is more used in this way for sizes :
frigate : small, sometimes can fit a med shield ext
cruiser : med booster, and can fit SEVERAL large extenders
BC : all the large you want.
BS : X-Large (the module is the size and requirements of a LAR)
So, the large stuff in shield is not really the BS classed stuff, there is no BS classed extender.
This means you cannot compare the large shield extender and the 1600mm plate, the large extender should be compared to the 800mm. Compare how it limits your setup in terms of penalties, pwg and cpu use.
There's also one thing that the plates don't do : increase your armor recharge rate, oh wait, there's no recharge on armor...
This just means the usage of tons of extenders or tons of armor plates have a very different result (again, armor tanking and shield tanking is not the same) :
-The shield will get more recharge rate, and you can end on passive tanking, enough so that another BC will have no chance of breaking a BC tank.
-The armor will have much more HP, but it will not recharge, those setups are good only if you are sure you can break the ennemy tank before if comes down your very passive armor that doesn't repair faster (even slower, or even not at all). This setup will always get killed against a passive shield tanker becuase it won't break its tank (considering same ship class).
Now, if X-large extenders should be added, what woud avoid a BC to fit one, and make passive tanks as we have now (in terms of recharge rate) with even better resists?
Set the pwg requirement to 1500? well, that would be quite wrong for any raven setup as it has low pwg...
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Plave Okice
Naughty 40
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:14:00 -
[8]
They're in the same place as X Large armour reps and armour that regens itself it you just sit and wait and don't use any modules.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:25:00 -
[9]
Shield has passive regen...
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:29:00 -
[10]
Or the skill which reduces plate powergrid needs.
Even if we ignore the passive tank problems, the thing is rather simple. It is far FAR easier to mount (oversized) extenders than plates without utterly gimping your setup (nevermind that weight increase is quite a bit worse than sig increase IMO), in exchange extenders are lacking in the high end department.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
FSK23
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:33:00 -
[11]
Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 27/06/2007 12:33:29
Let's take a imaginary BS with 7500 shield, 6600 armor and 2500sec shield recharge. Armor amount, shield amound and shield recharge skill at 5.
Armor: 6600 * 1.25 = 8250
Shield: 7500 * 1.25 = 9375
Shield recharge time: 2500 * 0.75 = 1875sec
Shield recharge rate: 5hp/sec avg, 12.5hp/sec peak
Armor + Plate: 8250 + 4200 = 12450
Shield + Extender: 9375 + 2625 = 12000
Shield recharge time: unmodified
Shield recharge rate: 6.4hp/sec avg, 16hp/sec peak
So to offset the flat 1575hp the armor module grants over the shield module, the fight needs to last 18min40sec (avg) or 7min30sec (peak). At these points, the shield extender added more raw hp than the plate. I think, these are the two numbers that need to be discussed, not the 1575 difference of the modules.
They seem a bit high, then again, you can choose to "reinforce" your shield tank with lowslot modules, whereas there are no such med slot modules for armor tanks. And no agility drawback.
Right now, I'd vote for "overall it's fine" tbh.
[Edit] Typo.
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