| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
   |
Posted - 2007.07.06 16:28:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Enduros
My mach can easily hit cruisers at 7km with artillery, and it will also hit that bs orbiting at 50 just as well from the same spot.
With all skills and rigs (t1 ammo) you can do effective dps from about 25km (read effective!). Wit AB you go like 300 or about. So that means it will take you (50-25) / (ab_s - target_s).
Lets say the bs goes 120 making your approach about 250m/s. It will take you about a minute to get into range. While you do that I have already killed 2 of them with arti.
argh?
Actually the real issue with the ACs is not that first BS you have to AB into range of, it is the SECOND one opposite from your original position that you have to AB to after you dealth with the first one. While with arties, both can conveniently be shot without even moving much. That ACs in missions do not work well most of the time is not even worth discussing. Not to mention that 25 km for effective AC damage is quite optimistic.
Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 16:31:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 06/07/2007 16:32:42
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Enduros
My mach can easily hit cruisers at 7km with artillery, and it will also hit that bs orbiting at 50 just as well from the same spot.
With all skills and rigs (t1 ammo) you can do effective dps from about 25km (read effective!). Wit AB you go like 300 or about. So that means it will take you (50-25) / (ab_s - target_s).
Lets say the bs goes 120 making your approach about 250m/s. It will take you about a minute to get into range. While you do that I have already killed 2 of them with arti.
argh?
Actually the real issue with the ACs is not that first BS you have to AB into range of, it is the SECOND one opposite from your original position that you have to AB to after you dealth with the first one. While with arties, both can conveniently be shot without even moving much. That ACs in missions do not work well most of the time is not even worth discussing. Not to mention that 25 km for effective AC damage is quite optimistic.
You have 4 enemies at 40 km. Your siege missiles move 1/3 the speed of an AB matari ship. By the time you kille the first the AC ship wil lbe in range and killing all the others very fast. An AB tempest goes almost 400m/s
25 km is not optimistic. 16km falloff *1.25*1.15.8.15*1.15( the rigs are NOT stack nerfed)= 30,4 km fallof. Plus a 5% fallof implant goes to 32 Km fallof. With 4 Km optimal. That gives you about 80% firepower at 25 km.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Enduros
IntoXication Inc
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 16:37:00 -
[33]
While you are getting to the second target, as was mentioned, arti ship will have killed the 4 bs. A CNR will have already killed them and be half way to the next gate. But since it's poorly assembled box and is so slow we will meet at the warp at the same time.
CNR can move how it wants even when shooting, for that reason we put the gate at 30km:P or I'd loose, can't have that.
-
Thou shall trolleth! |
Manaswa
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 16:38:00 -
[34]
Why would you use a fleet tempest for missioning when you can use a Mael? Mael can solo all lvl 4s and has a much stronger tank for less cost.
And I experimented with ACs yesterday and maybe on a faster ship they are worthwhile but on a slow boat like the Mael they are the suck. Too much flying around. I'm sticking with my 1200s.
|
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 17:03:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
You have 4 enemies at 40 km. Your siege missiles move 1/3 the speed of an AB matari ship. By the time you kille the first the AC ship wil lbe in range and killing all the others very fast. An AB tempest goes almost 400m/s
25 km is not optimistic. 16km falloff *1.25*1.15.8.15*1.15( the rigs are NOT stack nerfed)= 30,4 km fallof. Plus a 5% fallof implant goes to 32 Km fallof. With 4 Km optimal. That gives you about 80% firepower at 25 km.
Uhm.. wha?
I don't know what kind of siege missiles you use, but mine move at 3000+ m/s (I am using two missile velocity rigs), and the only real delay in killing anything is the flight time to the first target. Which is less than 15 secs for a target 40 km away...
I guess you have never witnessed a proper torp CNR in a mission....
Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
Torian Lorik
Jonosha Corp.
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 17:26:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Torian Lorik on 06/07/2007 17:28:37
I have noticed no mention of an absolutely critical factor in mission-running.
Damage type.
Any missile boat has the option to pick the optimal damage type against the NPC it's facing. Judging by the various resists the NPCs have, that alone guarantees a good amount of damage over gunboats. Using the wrong damage type means it takes more than two salvos to kill a BC for me, sometimes closer to three. Using the right one, I can kill two BCs in three salvos, every time.
CNR > Mach/Tempest/Mael any day, Nightmare might compete in terms of raw DPS and therefore do better against EM-sensitive NPCs, but not Guris/Angels/Serp/EoM/Mercs.
Edit: no, I don't believe it matters if projectile gunboats can switch damage types, that affects optimal range and in some cases reduces overall DPS to the point of near-uselessness. Also, nearly all or all projectile ammo has multiple damage types, so you're not using the optimal damage type on at least part of your damage anyway.
|
Manaswa
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 17:36:00 -
[37]
Okay I don't mean this as a flame so don't take it the wrong way.
He asked about a Tempest.
Every time I read a thread about a PvE BS it invariably turns into a discussion about a Raven whether or not the OP wanted to know about a Raven or not.
WE GET IT. RAVEN = BEST MISSION RUNNER. GOT IT! CHECK! AFFIRMATIVE!
That doesn't mean that no other BS builds are viable. Some people want to fly their races ships or harbor a special affinity for a certain playstyle.
The OP didn't ask for the uberest BS build for lvl 4s he asked about a fleet issue Tempest and still the topic gets derailed with all this Raven talk.
I have never flown a Raven and I think I know more about it than the BS's I do use simply because it's inescapable.
We know. The Raven rocks for pve. Not everyone has the goal of running missions afk as quickly as possible, however. Some people run 'em for the fun as much as the isk.
So please...before you go into every thread about a non-Raven BS and post about how the ship sucks compared to a Raven pause for a second and ask yourself if you are really helping the OP out or just restating whats been said in like every other thread in this forum.
*deep breath*
Sorry, had to vent and didn't want to clutter things up with a separate post.
And again, not sure why'd you go for a tempest over a Mael for mission running. The Mael has a better tank than even a Fleet issue tempest. (If I'm wrong about that please correct me)
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 17:38:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Torian Lorik
Edited by: Torian Lorik on 06/07/2007 17:28:37
I have noticed no mention of an absolutely critical factor in mission-running.
Damage type.
Any missile boat has the option to pick the optimal damage type against the NPC it's facing. Judging by the various resists the NPCs have, that alone guarantees a good amount of damage over gunboats. Using the wrong damage type means it takes more than two salvos to kill a BC for me, sometimes closer to three. Using the right one, I can kill two BCs in three salvos, every time.
CNR > Mach/Tempest/Mael any day, Nightmare might compete in terms of raw DPS and therefore do better against EM-sensitive NPCs, but not Guris/Angels/Serp/EoM/Mercs.
Edit: no, I don't believe it matters if projectile gunboats can switch damage types, that affects optimal range and in some cases reduces overall DPS to the point of near-uselessness. Also, nearly all or all projectile ammo has multiple damage types, so you're not using the optimal damage type on at least part of your damage anyway.
Lol angel is teh easiest to matari. Fusion is almost 100% Explosive. The EM sensitive oens are the harder ones to face in fact.
Range? RANGE ? All other options wil INCREASE your range!!!
Man its simple fact, I dont do missions anymore. But several times I wapred a maelin a belt and started engaging rats, just for areven warp in and soon ask.. HOW in hell do you kill them so fast?
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 18:10:00 -
[39]
Originally by: OP
Hello.
I'm considering buying navy tempest for mission use.
The 1 extra midslot and extra shield i think this would be a great ship for missions.
Is this a good idea or not?
Well, he thinks it would be a great mission ship, which it would not be due to the Raven (and also the Abaddon). Hence the discussion.
If the true question is whether it would be better than the other Minmatar ships, I would have to say no too. Both Mael and Machariel are better imho, even though they are not great mission ships either.
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Man its simple fact, I dont do missions anymore. But several times I wapred a maelin a belt and started engaging rats, just for areven warp in and soon ask.. HOW in hell do you kill them so fast?
Another proof that you lack clue about missions.
No idea about torpedo velocity, comparing missions to belting, and using the awe of a n00b in a crappy 0.0 ratting cruise Raven to make a Mael look good for missions...
Hell I can warp an AC sleip into a belt and clear the rats faster than any Raven could, yet it is still a crappy ship for missions...
Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
Manaswa
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 18:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: OP
Hello.
I'm considering buying navy tempest for mission use.
The 1 extra midslot and extra shield i think this would be a great ship for missions.
Is this a good idea or not?
Well, he thinks it would be a great mission ship, which it would not be due to the Raven (and also the Abaddon). Hence the discussion.
If the true question is whether it would be better than the other Minmatar ships, I would have to say no too. Both Mael and Machariel are better imho, even though they are not great mission ships either.
So what you are saying is that there is no point in flying anything other than a Raven so anyone who asks about another BS and how well it performs should be chastised and pointed in the direction of Caldari BS skill. (which is pretty much what happens 90% of the time)
Minmatar BS's suck at low SP and get better the more SP you have. Flying a gunboat is a very different experience than a missile platform with a shield. But I understand that aesthetics and intangibles will always come secondar to performance in such a technical atmosphere.
I am having a fine time running 4s with my Mael. It may not be as easy or quick as a Raven but that does not make it a "bad" mission ship.
But yeah...I agree with you that Tempest is not a good choice for Minmatar mission running.
|
Xoduse
Gallente
Beasts of Burden
YouWhat
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 18:39:00 -
[41]
You guys can argue into the next Ice Age whether a turret boat or raven will run missions faster, but lets assume the CNR does them faster - on average.
My character has 800k in missiles, 1mil approx in shield skills from when I ran lvl 4s in a Std. Raven my first few months in EVE. Back then it was 10x more effective than a megathron would have been.
But now 1.5 yrs later I have 7mil in gunnery, maxed armor tank skills, t2 large Rails, t2 Ogres and 4mil in drones. So I'll use a turret ship instead.
|
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 18:46:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Manaswa
I am having a fine time running 4s with my Mael. It may not be as easy or quick as a Raven but that does not make it a "bad" mission ship.
Well, I don't think I said anywhere they were bad? I just say that they are not good. There is something inbetween called average. Thats where these ships reside. A really BAD mission ship would be the Scorpion 
Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 18:59:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Xoduse
You guys can argue into the next Ice Age whether a turret boat or raven will run missions faster, but lets assume the CNR does them faster - on average.
My character has 800k in missiles, 1mil approx in shield skills from when I ran lvl 4s in a Std. Raven my first few months in EVE. Back then it was 10x more effective than a megathron would have been.
But now 1.5 yrs later I have 7mil in gunnery, maxed armor tank skills, t2 large Rails, t2 Ogres and 4mil in drones. So I'll use a turret ship instead.
That si so true. Turret ships are not for low SP characters. But since eveything on the ship and modules forum is always iscussed under the premisse ax skills"I stil defend turret ships.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 19:13:00 -
[44]
This isn't even a debate about turret vs. missiles. It is about Arties having poor dps due to low base dps, bad ammo damage, and too few turrets on the dual damage bonus BS. If fusion ammo did 48 total damage and the Fleet Tempest had the 7th turret slot (and the PG to go along with it) it rightfully deserves imho, it actually WOULD make a fine mission ship for minmatar runners. But since that is not so...
The Abaddon IS a turret ship too after all, and it DOES outperform the CNR on some missions. Because its damage is not gimped in the abovementioned ways.
Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |