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Taikun
Gallente
Serenity Prime
Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.06 00:20:00 -
[1]
Topic - Particular Issues with the Market.
Issue background
When selling items on that market CCP wisely implemented a warning dialogue box to protect you from selling item that are significantly under regional value. Take a look at what happens when I try to sell a single titanium for 0.2 isk.
Image Link (Warning Lots of them)
This also works for trying to buy items as well above market values. In both cases you get a warning /dialogue box.
'So what' or 'big deal' I hear many of you say.
Well take a look at the default selection for the sale box. It is always "yes". In other words, CCP knows that what you are trying to do is probably an error in placing the decimal point, or not adding a final zero so it warns you. BUT makes the default action to carry out the destructive or dangerous command.
This is moronic.
Let me say that again to get my point across. CCP, whoever coded this element of the user interface did not THINK about why the warning box was being put there in the first place.
A warning box should PROTECT the user from doing a undersired action, and ALWAYS default to the safest outcome for the user unless SPECIFIED by that user.
Why might a user press enter twice? Well there are pleanty of reasons:
Basic error double tapping enter
- You dropped something on your keyboard.
You bumped your keyboard.
Network lag.
Lightly touching key resulting in several stroke registers.
Key get stuck in the down postsion
This trait of human behaviour is why user interface design professionals EXIST in organisations to help the user interact with systems. CCP really needs to hire one, or fire the one currently employed IMO for allowing this potential to continue for years.
So I typed in the wrong value, it will just sell at the highest 'buy order' right?
WRONG!
What compounds this issue is this is we assume the following.
1. You just finish building a Megathron and want to sell it for 100 million isk.
2. You open a sell order and the highest 'buy order' in the market is pre-populated in your sale price. 99% of the time this is a stupid price like 80 million for a Megathron so you are forced to change it.
3. So you type in 100000000 and accidentally leave out an extra zero (because the commas are not used in the entry fields) and you actually press enter on the amount of 10,000,000 in error.
Ok. We would have basically replicated the warning box right at the top of this article as it would warn you that you are selling under regional average. Ya follow so far?
Now remember the bit about CCP being moronic enough to have the default action 'Yes'? Well, if instead of pressing enter only once, your keyboard registers two key strokes you will never even SEE that warning box come up and the sale will be processed for 10,000,000.
However, the sale will NOT be processed at the highest 'buy order' on the market of 80,000,000. Instead it will be processed at the value you typed in for your sale price of 10,000,000.
So, even though somebody in the market had a buy order out for 80,000,000, they only actually paid 10,000,000 for it.
Continued>
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Taikun Ironworker
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Posted - 2007.07.06 00:21:00 -
[2]
mine
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Taikun
Gallente
Serenity Prime
Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.06 00:22:00 -
[3]
mine
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Dr Isk
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Posted - 2007.07.06 01:33:00 -
[4]
ZzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzz
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.06 02:07:00 -
[5]
/signed
But you are making some inferences that are incorrect from market history data. I know some people who intentionally fill their own "out of whack" sell/buy orders for the purpose of causing the regional average to be shifted.
Sounds silly but try it out sometime.
(You'd go to jail for this if you were in the US mind you.)
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Shar Tegral> Well someone please say something quotable for this month!!!! |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools
Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.07.06 02:55:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Shar Tegral
*stuff that should be removed*
Shhhh.
No, seriously. Shhhh.
MP
--
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
bogir
War And Peace Construction
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Posted - 2007.07.06 03:25:00 -
[7]
may times when you see players buy stuff for WAY over price is becosue they dont look at the marked first and just clik buy now and dont like.. i seen players pay 9mill for shuttels.. becouse players hafe a sleep on a station whit no ohter shuttles just clik buy now ( on station ) and see the 9.000 and forget the rest and just confirm it.. and BAM they payed 9mill for a 7k-9k ship. it happens on many ohter items allso. allso the players selling items to WAY lower price is becouse many players just clik sell and see what ohters pay for em. and dont take the time to put up a sell order to gain the exter isk or just dont use ther "trader whit in" and many traders make good money becosue players are lasy or dum / lasy
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.07.06 03:37:00 -
[8]
I've got a friend who has quote-unquote "Mad micro",, this serves him damn well for FPS games. In an RTS game, although it lets him manipulate individual units correctly, his clicks are going *everywhere*, leading to a huge degree of inaccuracy, and with some careful clicks and mouse movements I can easily outdo him,, to which he blames crappy unit AI, poor interface etc..
In EVE, fastmouse movements in PvP might be handy, in the market it's not. Sure, the faster you do stuff, the quicker you make money, but i guess you can think of it as the isk vs risk argument. You take a chance and dont double check your entry, whether you misentered it or not, you're in your own ballpark there.
I've never misentered data on the market, and I dont intend to start.
What I *will* agree with though is that the warning prompt should not default to the "Positive Action" option. These sorts of things should always be defaulted to the option which causes no further action to take place. Anything else is bad UI design (or good, depending on your outlook)
Improve Market Competition! |
Taikun
Gallente
Serenity Prime
Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.06 04:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
What I *will* agree with though is that the warning prompt should not default to the "Positive Action" option. These sorts of things should always be defaulted to the option which causes no further action to take place. Anything else is bad UI design (or good, depending on your outlook)
And this is the ONLY thing I want CCP to change. Basic common sense if you ask me.
Their response to my petition about this default setting was to tell me they can't give me my ship back??!!
So I re-petition clarifying that I don't want a ship or a refund, just this quirk of the game looked at, recognised as being 'not working as intended' and eventually fixed.
Their response was to re-iterate that they can not give me my ship back???!?!?
Sometimes I don't have to wonder if anyone is at home or not at CCP. They prove beyond a doubt with their 'cut and paste' petition responses they either drink at work, or outsource the petition depatment to Chineese ISK sellers.
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.07.06 06:05:00 -
[10]
This so called in your eyes 'bug' wouldn't be the cause for the majority of the pictures you posted. The main cause would be people turning off the notification window.
I see nothing wrong with the current system. Sounds like you got burnt somehow, but such is Eve. If I am doing a transaction and my son presses the left mouse button and it happens to click on the yes button, it has the same affect.
Should CCP also code in a second activation warning that appears on the other side of the screen and requires a 4 digit typed key to accept the transaction?
There really needs to be a limit on how much babysitting CCP do for the playerbase. Right now, I think things are fine.
But thanks for the guide, I might try my luck at this 
Need Empire Research Slots. Click here |
Ulrich Sternaxe
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Posted - 2007.07.06 07:25:00 -
[11]
I think the problem is more caused by the attitude of most EVE-players towards scamming, or taking unfair advantage of someone elses technical mistakes (I'm not talking about making a wrong decision).
In the real world when a company happens to make a similar mistake by transferring money to another company for a wrong amount the other company will always pay it back somehow. It's called business integrity and it's absolutely neccesary to maintain a good reputation. A company which wouldn't pay it back would be branded as a scamming company and consequently will have a hard time finding business partners or keeping the ones they have.
A few weeks ago I lost 500 million to Shadarle due to a market mistype, I sent him 2 mails asking if we could arrange some kind of agreement, he didn't answer either of them. Now I could have gone on the forums and branded him as a dishonest businessman but the reaction of the community would have probably been that I should shut up complaining about a mistake I made myself, so I didn't post anything (seeing this post I had to say something though, get my opinion out there).
I think this view the community has on the matter is wrong though, someone should take a hit on their reputation as a businessman if they have no business integrity. So I will be trying to avoid doing business with Shadarle as much as I can. But that's just my view on the matter.
If this post sounds like a whine, I'm terribly sorry (don't want to bother you with that), I just wanted to express my opinion about it. Safe to say, if you happen to make a technical mistake and I'm the one profiting from it, you WILL get your ISK back from me.
signature:
private investors wanted - 8% fixed return per month (30.5 days) |
Jonny 101
The League of Legitimate Nigerian Businessmen
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Posted - 2007.07.06 08:21:00 -
[12]
These are mechanisms eve NEEDS to avoid becoming the next world of warcraft.
WoW can I have your stuff when you leave?
No seriously, use the link, you'll have fun.
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Ulrich Sternaxe
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Posted - 2007.07.06 08:54:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
What I *will* agree with though is that the warning prompt should not default to the "Positive Action" option. These sorts of things should always be defaulted to the option which causes no further action to take place. Anything else is bad UI design (or good, depending on your outlook)
And this is the ONLY thing I want CCP to change. Basic common sense if you ask me.
Their response to my petition about this default setting was to tell me they can't give me my ship back??!!
So I re-petition clarifying that I don't want a ship or a refund, just this quirk of the game looked at, recognised as being 'not working as intended' and eventually fixed.
Their response was to re-iterate that they can not give me my ship back???!?!?
Sometimes I don't have to wonder if anyone is at home or not at CCP. They prove beyond a doubt with their 'cut and paste' petition responses they either drink at work, or outsource the petition depatment to Chineese ISK sellers.
Come on, give CCP some credit, they aren't that lazy responding to petitions, I've had some really friendly and helpful responses to a couple of my petitions, fast as well when I'm stuck in Jita. I guess you just had someone on a bad day. Or maybe your petition wasn't diplomatic/friendly enough, remember, there are humans reading your petitions, they have emotions too, they could get annoyed with the way you choose the phrase your words... 
signature:
private investors wanted - 8% fixed return per month (30.5 days) |
Taikun
Gallente
Serenity Prime
Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.06 09:03:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ricdic
This so called in your eyes 'bug' wouldn't be the cause for the majority of the pictures you posted. The main cause would be people turning off the notification window.
Ricdic... try and turn the window off. If you manage this I will personally give you 50 million isk. Just show me where to click on the warning window.
Until then I suggest you go back and fuel up that offline tower my BPOs are cooking in.
Taikun
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Taikun
Gallente
Serenity Prime
Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.06 09:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe
Come on, give CCP some credit, they aren't that lazy responding to petitions,
I couldn't give 2 flying bananas how well your petitions went. All I care about is the ineptitude in which they handled mine.
CCP is guilty of providing a 'cut and paste' approach to my petitions resulting in this post waring others about this game flaw.
If CCP wont fix it, it is up to us to warn others of it's existance.
Taikun
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Robacz
Essence Trade
Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.06 09:31:00 -
[16]
I agree that it should be NO at default, but hey, we are asking for similiar confirmation window on modify order dialog for years and nothing happend, so I don't think this will get fixed anytime soon.
About rest of your post - I don't agree. Market works as it was intened to work. If you make mistake (due to your error or bad interface - doesn't matter), you will pay for it. And I say it as a person who lost multiple billions to this.
Sometimes it helps to ask the other person to return you ISK. I get my ISK back sometimes and I always give them back if my buy order is the lucky one. (besided I once got banned for getting underpriced stuff via buy order, so I am cautious now, since it can be mistke, but also ISK seller leaving misleading traces).
_________
Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings
Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, T2 Components
T2 Distribution: 8 regions covered |
Daeva Vios
Ardent Adversary
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Posted - 2007.07.06 09:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe
whining because I wasn't careful and got screwed by this
Be more careful and stop whining. EVE is designed to be PVP, and the Market PVP is just as harsh as anything ship-to-ship, if not more.
This is by design. Whining will not change it. Whining will just get people to laugh at you because wow, you lose at forum PVP too. 
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Brain Day
Captain Morgan Society
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Posted - 2007.07.06 09:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe
whining because I wasn't careful and got screwed by this
Be more careful and stop whining. EVE is designed to be PVP, and the Market PVP is just as harsh as anything ship-to-ship, if not more.
This is by design. Whining will not change it. Whining will just get people to laugh at you because wow, you lose at forum PVP too.
Exactly. Bit by bit every whiney carebear dumbs down eve just that little bit more as each month passes. I see this "feature" as another example of having to pay attention to what you are doing, if you are lazy, if you dont make the EFFORT, then EvE will PUNISH you, that is exactly how it should be.
Is this a sig or the next line in the post? WHO KNOWS. |
Daeva Vios
Ardent Adversary
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Posted - 2007.07.06 10:34:00 -
[19]
To be a bit more clear and less hateful:
This game is designed with PVP in mind. This has been said several times by the EVE devs, and I'm sure someone with more time than I have can find a quote if they've got a mind to.
This game is the only successful MMORPG designed entirely with PVP and PVPers in mind. There are literally hundreds of PVE MMOs out there, many of them sci-fi in nature. Whenever you come along and ask that some PVP element or another be removed, you're ruining the experience for hundreds of thousands of people who accept and even desire the PVP that they can't get elsewhere.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't want PVP, this game is not for you. It's not any sort of condemnation of you on my part. I can truly understand that people don't want to play in a universe where all of their hard work can be blown up by someone else. The thing is, some people DO want that, some people actually seek that out. Every single time you make a post like this asking for the PVP to be dumbed down in some way, you're ruining the game for those of us who like it this way.
In the end, posts like this make you look like a real jerk. You've got so many options available to you, and those of us who like real hardcore PVP have so very few. Stop being a jerk and go find a game better suited to you.
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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.06 10:43:00 -
[20]
First, I agree that safest action for the user should be the default. Yet even your data seems to imply this is not urgent nor crucial issue. Like that graph about tens of thousands Ravens sold during one year, with single low-priced item showing on it.
Originally by: Taikun
my petition .. can't give me my ship back .. re-petition .. quirk of the game looked at
It might have been a misunderstanding issue. We have the bug reporting system for telling developers what they should fix, and then we have petitions to request things from GMs.
In that sense the GM did right thing, giving you copy&paste response so he could quickly move on to work on that long petition queue.
-Lasse
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Taikun
Ricdic... try and turn the window off. If you manage this I will personally give you 50 million isk. Just show me where to click on the warning window.
Until then I suggest you go back and babysit / fuel up that offline tower my BPOs are cooking in.
Taikun
Hehe well the towers are all back online I believe, and have been for a good 16 hours now. Nice call though. And yeh I thought that window could be turned off. Ok, when you next send a petition can you also request that they allow the ability to not show that warning any more then please.
Personally, I would always recommend reviewing transactions BEFORE you press OK that first time, not when you get a warning box pop up
Need Empire Research Slots. Click here |
Daeva Vios
Ardent Adversary
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ricdic
Personally, I would always recommend reviewing transactions BEFORE you press OK that first time, not when you get a warning box pop up
This is really the heart of the matter. Everything else exists secondary to this one idea. Watch your own back, because no one else is going to watch it for you. Be careful, because you will be screwed if you are not.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.06 15:11:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Shar Tegral on 06/07/2007 15:11:04
Crap a good thread ruined by elitism. Eve Players 4tl.
To the OP, you have filed your concern in the wrong place entirely. If you notice a very minor "bug" or "inconsistency" in the ui, you do not petition it. You bug report it. Petitions are solely for corrective measures to in game events. Corrections to the client are not petition material.
To all those who say, "Double Check, blah, blah" or "Don't be a newb, blah, blah". Shame on you. I have it on good authority that most of you can read. Shame that you didn't read this time before you started typing.
He's brought up a case, substantiated it (to an excess imho), and he's successfully made the point. There is any number of reasons an extra "carriage return" may be detected by the client and/or server. The fact that the default option is one that changes the status quo (to the detriment) is, as he has demonstrated to us, a glaring oversight.
So be nice. He ranted a little, yeah. But I can dig up rants owned by each and everyone of you. So be nice.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Daeva Vios
Ardent Adversary
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Posted - 2007.07.06 15:32:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 06/07/2007 15:35:39
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 06/07/2007 15:32:42
I guess what I'm seeing, Shar, is you trying to make excuses for someone who fell for one of the oldest tricks there is in the market game, despite the warning provided by the system to prevent this from happening.
The rule in EVE has ALWAYS been to watch yourself, anyone who has played for any appreciable period of time learns this lesson and most players learn it the hard way. Most players accept that they made a stupid mistake and are more careful next time.
The problem I'm having with this post and the replies that have come after it is that their attitude seems to be against the ability to even attempt to pull this trick. This runs contrary to the idea of the free market, and I've seen you get pretty heated up by others who've suggested limiting the freedom of the market.
While I could be convinced that the warning should default to the safest outcome (note the 'could be' because this post simply doesn't cut it), I do not for a minute believe that anything should be done to eliminate this tactic, and that seems to be what's being advocated by several individuals here, and the OP's attitude is definitely one of hostility despite his choice to dress it up into a 'guide' for pulling this off.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 06/07/2007 16:04:10Edit: This post under construction.
I'd very much advise some spackle and a few header beams on it as well. Maybe even read the point of the post.
No one is saying that there needs to be some sort of "idiot proofing" of market buy/selling. Can't be done. However in every instance of user interface design when a warning box comes up and asks, "Are you sure?", the default tab stop of the selection is always on No.
Would you like it if suddenly your file system asked you "Delete all your pron?" and the default was yes? If the system registered an extra carriage return your sex life would be over.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Daeva Vios
Ardent Adversary
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:14:00 -
[26]
Really, could you not have waited until I actually said what I had to say?
I'm doing what I can to maintain my position and not ruin the whole thing by having it turn into a stupid argument. I guess if you're just going to try to insult me there's no point in that.
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Brain Day
Captain Morgan Society
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:23:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Brain Day on 06/07/2007 16:25:03
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Would you like it if suddenly your file system asked you "Delete all your pron?" and the default was yes? If the system registered an extra carriage return your sex life would be over.
Your file system is not trying to teach you a philosophy, eve is.
Is this a sig or the next line in the post? WHO KNOWS. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Really, could you not have waited until I actually said what I had to say? {snip} I guess if you're just going to try to insult me there's no point in that.
I had read what you first put in, sorry. As to insulting, that was sardonic humor. Again, sorry.
This is dumping into a stupid argument because basically the op only asked about a silly little change that is for the better. More rational. And people want to make it a carebear/idiot proof issue so that they can me-me by saying, "See I pwned myself by not reading."
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.06 17:00:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Brain Day
Your file system is not trying to teach you a philosophy, eve is.
This is a fine example of someone showing how smart they think they are by saying something utterly unrelated and lacking in any intellectual value.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Aakron
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.07.06 17:52:00 -
[30]
It is absolutely ridiculous whining about this. If you make a mistake you pay the price, you've already got a warning dialogue box, how silly can you be to complain about its default option??
If you drop your keyboard and shoot someone in highsec by mistake, or jump into a 0.0 camp by mistake you don't get your ship back because it was an accident!!
In eve the weak fail and die miserably, if you can't check your own orders carefully don't look to CCP to bail you out.
Check your orders.
If you have a lot of isk move it onto an alt so you can't physically make a huge market area.
If you press tab on the isk box it enters the decimal places. If you're in too much of a rush to notice then you pay the price.
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