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Raediearn
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Posted - 2007.07.18 13:32:00 -
[1]
I would like to know why people set market orders for less than the maximum length of 90 days other than wanting it to expire sooner. Is there any other reason? Am I missing something?
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Laughing God
Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.18 14:30:00 -
[2]
Good question,
Personally I tend to use the maximum duration on my orders, since there is no immediate benefit with have a shorter duration (broker fee and tax is the same).
The only reason I can think of why you would want to use shorter order-durations is if you have a larger number of orders in a large number of regions so that you cannot monitor them, and wish them to be taken off market after awhile.
Perhaps it can also be used in "market-pvp" to make your order appear like it¦s almost running out, and thus making other perhaps less inclined to undercut.
If anyone has better ideas please do enlighten me
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LaVista Vista
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.07.18 14:38:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Laughing God
Perhaps it can also be used in "market-pvp" to make your order appear like it¦s almost running out, and thus making other perhaps less inclined to undercut.
Honestly i doubt thats the case. Undercutting bots wouldnt care the slighest, and neither would i.
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Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.18 15:28:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Matalino on 18/07/2007 15:27:58 Because they are too lazy / forgot to change the duration of the order. The order duration is irrelevant if the person placing the order updates it often, as each update will reset the duration timer.
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Shino Tu
Caldari Kaaii-Net Research Labs
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Posted - 2007.07.18 15:59:00 -
[5]
Not so,
Sometimes 1 week or two is fine for short term mineral orders. Also while changing amounts/prices is doable, it does cost some, albeit a small amount, chasing prices can add up.
Some people are moving out of wherever, and will put short term sells out, to dump items, then pack up the rest. see above..
thats just a few reasons..
"Unhappy people expect the world to adapt to them and happy people adapt to the world." |
thetwilitehour
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.18 16:17:00 -
[6]
Might be worth considering the possibility that long buy orders place you at risk for game changes screwing you over. Right after the last major patch ppl ran around filling buy orders for certain items whose price had dropped dramatically based on the patch.
On high ticket items i'd probably be leery of placing large sums into long term buy orders (implants and such) especially at quantity, although it depends on your liquidity and available funds (if you have 100bn, 1bn in such items buy orders isnt that much of your assets)
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swoj
The New Order. United Connection's
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Posted - 2007.07.18 16:28:00 -
[7]
depends what you are buying and why.
I've set 3 day buy orders for things I'll want to have when I come back from a long weekend. For example, on Friday morning I can set up a buy order for a Megathron and 7 425mm rail II and less than the price I'll have to pay if I just buy them off the market when I get back on Monday, so if the order isn't fulfilled by Monday, it will autoexpire and I'll have my isk back when I log on in the evening.
For sell orders, I've used short order lengths to test the market for particular items and see how quickly they sell.
Granted, I could just set 90days for all orders and manually cancel the ones at the appropriate time, but sometimes I can't be bothered searching through my order list to find them.
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.18 17:16:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Robacz on 18/07/2007 17:16:21
Originally by: Raediearn I would like to know why people set market orders for less than the maximum length of 90 days other than wanting it to expire sooner. Is there any other reason? Am I missing something?
I always use non-90 day length cos its easier to recognize my orders (vast majority of others are 90) and don't have to mess with .xx identifiers. Besides everything needs to be updated within few days at most anyway...
_________ Always buying: pirate implants & high-end hardwirings Tech2 distribution service: 8 regions covered |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.07.18 17:57:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Robacz easier to recognize my orders (vast majority of others are 90) and don't have to mess with .xx identifiers.
That the only reason I ever use them. And I very rarely use them, even that way.
MP --
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.07.18 18:39:00 -
[10]
Honestly, the broker fee should be different based on length of order. That would be a very good reason to have different order lengths.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
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Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.18 18:48:00 -
[11]
I use short term orders on stuff that is, well, short term, or to get an idea of how close to saturation a market is.
By short term I mean things that I don't want to wait 30-90 days for them to sell/buy. Idle assets aren't earning me any money, and all that.
Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2007.07.18 18:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shadarle Honestly, the broker fee should be different based on length of order. That would be a very good reason to have different order lengths.
I'd like that very much. |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.07.18 19:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pang Grohl I use short term orders on stuff that is, well, short term, or to get an idea of how close to saturation a market is.
By short term I mean things that I don't want to wait 30-90 days for them to sell/buy. Idle assets aren't earning me any money, and all that.
*Clicks Cancel Order* Problem Solved.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.18 20:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Pang Grohl I use short term orders on stuff that is, well, short term, or to get an idea of how close to saturation a market is.
By short term I mean things that I don't want to wait 30-90 days for them to sell/buy. Idle assets aren't earning me any money, and all that.
*Clicks Cancel Order* Problem Solved.
Now I'm curious what problem this solves.
Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.07.18 23:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Pang Grohl
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Pang Grohl I use short term orders on stuff that is, well, short term, or to get an idea of how close to saturation a market is.
By short term I mean things that I don't want to wait 30-90 days for them to sell/buy. Idle assets aren't earning me any money, and all that.
*Clicks Cancel Order* Problem Solved.
Now I'm curious what problem this solves.
I agree, there is no actual problem. You seemed to indicate there was one though. Set your orders for 90 days. If you still want something off the market after 1 day, 7 days or 30 days then you just sort by date and remove all the orders older than that.
See, the advantage in this method is that you can decide to leave an item on the market if it's sold say 9 of 10 items. Or if none out of 10 have sold you can just adjust the order price or you can fully cancel it if you so choose.
And as to the "Marking your orders" thing. This is obviously not the intended use of different durations. I think most heavy traders would agree there should be a column on orders with a single letter such as "P" for personal, "C" for corporate, or "O" for other. Heck, the market window could even have a special color highlighting for personal/corp orders. This seems like a far better way to mark orders.
Then we can go back to using duration for what it should be used for. The only reason duration is currently stupid is because all durations cost the same thing. In other games, such as WOW, you pay more for longer orders. Makes sense, no? It wouldn't have to be twice as much money for twice the duration. It could be say 50% of current value for 1 day, 70% for 7 days, 75% for 14 days, 90% for 30 days, 100% for 90 days or some such. In which case the order duration would not be updated on modification. This would add some extra strategy to placing orders. To me, adding some extra strategy to trading would be very nice.
Tanking Setups Compared
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Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.07.19 09:24:00 -
[16]
I often place buy orders for short times. The markets i work in are moving all the time with some pretty bad crashes happening recently. People crash markets to obtain cheap goods, and i've been hit by this a few times. I'd rather have to put another buy order in and take the tax hit than be left with overpriced items i can't shift.
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.19 09:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shadarle Heck, the market window could even have a special color highlighting for personal/corp orders.
I would trade my kidney for this.
_________ Always buying: pirate implants & high-end hardwirings Tech2 distribution service: 8 regions covered |
J Galt
Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.22 20:53:00 -
[18]
When having 200+ orders open, I normally sort them in the wallet by remaining time and start updating with the lowest time left. Using a lower life time for orders in need of babysitting lets me position these orders in start of the queue automatically.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Solar Research Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.22 22:26:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 22/07/2007 22:29:26
Originally by: Raediearn I would like to know why people set market orders for less than the maximum length of 90 days other than wanting it to expire sooner. Is there any other reason? Am I missing something?
Hard core traders are limited by the number of orders more than stock or isk. Some goods move slowely so need a long term order. Other move quickly so a short term orders free up orders for other uses. I use them all the time for commodity sales. I price competatively but there is often something left over. The qty left expires and can be readily added into any newly accumulated stock for sale and an order becomes available for use. I also use short duration buys to movtivate sellers to fill an order quickly.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.07.23 03:08:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 22/07/2007 22:29:26
Originally by: Raediearn I would like to know why people set market orders for less than the maximum length of 90 days other than wanting it to expire sooner. Is there any other reason? Am I missing something?
Hard core traders are limited by the number of orders more than stock or isk. Some goods move slowely so need a long term order. Other move quickly so a short term orders free up orders for other uses. I use them all the time for commodity sales. I price competatively but there is often something left over. The qty left expires and can be readily added into any newly accumulated stock for sale and an order becomes available for use. I also use short duration buys to movtivate sellers to fill an order quickly.
If you have very small quantities left then you can just cancel the order and add it to your new order. The only thing a short duration does is remove any possibilities your other order sells out. I don't see why you'd want that.
The only two scenarios that makes any sense to me to use short orders are:
1. You want to differentiate your orders so you can tell which are yours and/or you want to sort by time remaining so you can babysit some orders more carefully.
If this is why you're doing it then it's CCP's fault for having a poor interface. The interface should provide a way to do both of these things. The first through colored orders or through a tab which displays a single letter or symbol to specify who owns the order. The second would be fixed by having a checkbox when making an order or modifying an order that marks the order specially so that you can sort by which orders do/don't have this marker. It would be a way to flag certain orders you have up. It would be especially nice if you could label your orders with a short description and then be able to sort by this description.
2. You trade in a lot of regions and are dealing in very volatile markets and don't want to chance the market dropping off and being sold overpriced goods OR you're lazy and you don't check your orders much.
These are the only real reason you'd actually want shorter times on your orders if they all cost the same.
Basically, if you need to use order duration/range/price to mark your orders then that is a shortcoming of CCP's interface and should be brought up in the ideas forum.
Tanking Setups Compared
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.07.23 03:29:00 -
[21]
*cough*link in my sig*cough*
Shardales right though. What I've found is if you put up an order for one day, and it's not filled, you wind up paying taxes again on placing another order later. Meanwhile, if you place it for the max length of time (90 days) and it's not filled quick enough, you can cancel it with no real issue anyway, and you'd only do that to reclaim the isk placed in escrow, and undoubtedly you wouldn't re-raise the order because you've got other issues on your plate.
Using anything other than a 90 day order is pretty useless for the simple fact there's not much in the way of penalties for cancelling or adjusting an order (remembering adjusting also resets the order timer, so you can essentially have an infinite length order at just 100isk per 3 months).
If there were stronger penalties associated with order modification, then different length orders could become quite strategic.
For example, Joe Bloggs has a 90 day order. Jane Doe undercuts with a one day order. Joe is reluctant to undercut because it's only a one-day order, which isn't worth incurring a small hit to potential profits. However, Jane runs the risk of her order expiring quicker, especially if she is undercut, and having to pay full fees to relist. Improve Market Competition! |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente Solar Research Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.23 07:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Originally by: Raediearn I would like to know why people set market orders for less than the maximum length of 90 days other than wanting it to expire sooner. Is there any other reason? Am I missing something?
Hard core traders are limited by the number of orders more than stock or isk. Some goods move slowely so need a long term order. Other move quickly so a short term orders free up orders for other uses. I use them all the time for commodity sales. I price competatively but there is often something left over. The qty left expires and can be readily added into any newly accumulated stock for sale and an order becomes available for use. I also use short duration buys to movtivate sellers to fill an order quickly.
If you have very small quantities left then you can just cancel the order and add it to your new order. The only thing a short duration does is remove any possibilities your other order sells out. I don't see why you'd want that.
I used to trade hydrogen batteries given out as mission rewards in Sinq. I had long term regional buy orders in place. Some stations accumulate Batteries much faster than others. Week Zero: I buy 45,000 batteries Week One: I sell 35,000 and accumulate another 20,000. Therefore I have 10,000 for Sale and 20,000 in my hanger. I could go through and cancel all those sales or I could let the orders in that station expire and add to the stock level. Start of Week two. I use Hanger search to find the Stations with the highest numbers of Batteries available and use my sell orders allocated to Hydrogen battery sales to sell those first.
I could cancel the order but time is money, reviewing 800 plus orders over 3 characters takes time. I'd rather spend my valuable time researching, picking a new trades or some useful.
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Terminus adacai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.27 09:35:00 -
[23]
Short durations are generally used for fluctuating items like minerals. Keep in mind that by simply modifying a 7 day buy/sell order, the order resets to 7 days, regardless of how much time was left when you modified the order.
This tactic is also used to throw off competitors that write 90 day orders. Your 3 day hardly seems threatening to his/her 90 day order. But simply adjust price by .01 isk and your order renews for original term.
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
Daeva Vios
Ardent Adversary Anvil.
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Posted - 2007.07.27 11:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Robacz
Originally by: Shadarle Heck, the market window could even have a special color highlighting for personal/corp orders.
I would trade my kidney for this.
/signed
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