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Caliph Muhammed
inderpendent manufacturing operations Amen Anera
58
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 18:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
Limited key is fine, but my contacts and mails are none of your business. So the tool might be there but if your corp is a collection of mediocre with nothing to offer you can hang up mass recruitment with a demand such as full api. Are you paying me? Are you paying for my sub? If the answer is no then the answer to a full api key is no. |

Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
534
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 18:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Well. Decline in giving full API to check is a good thing for me as one of recruiters.  Using corp policy "full API is needed" i easily drop part of my job and have more time to play instead of checking, interviewing, training and supporting newcomers  So guys. Pleeease. The more people hide their APIs the more time i can spend to the game  And on a serious note. Yes, i know that properly fitted spy won't be caught by API. This measure is just a simple locker on your door. Everyone knows that there is no unbreakable locker exists. What was built by people can always be destroyed by people. However no one will have his door unlocked and opened just because of this principle. So the full API, KB, forums and google checks are locker on your door. Will stop lazy unskilled and not-determined hacker. Or just person you would not have in your corp. Some possibility for random mistake from spy as bonus. There is one more thing exist. If you know almost everyone from your corp by real Name, where he lives, who is he in RL, etc... you will not want strangers came to this group. So newcomer will have many personal questions. After all you need to trust a little to your corpmembers. And if you are "too hidden" you have significally less chances to get into this group of people. This is just like in RL. Nothing really differs. "Internet space pixels" you say? Nope. This is time spent to make something, team work, real effort, real money maybe.
You might want to clarify that bolded part... Like quick
And for now indeed you are getting away with demanding full API. Just please understand that in the future that will become a serious issue to your recruiting. It might be better to start to get used to demanding only the skill sheet in the future as that is likely to become the standard once modular corp and POS are implemented.
TheTradeMonkey wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote: Sounds like you have recently changed to a "demand full api" system
It's not even a full api request, it was for an incredibly limited api (character list\skill sheet). I'm trying to get my head round the mind set of it all and in all honesty, I'm struggling. The question still stands though, how do you filter for spys? oh and bar "reading my eve mails" I've not heard much that makes me buy into this "OMFG API AAAHHHH" Also, what corp pos thing?
Getting you head around the concept is a matter of understanding that EVE is a VERY long term game. And privacy is one element many find important.
Modular Corp and POS is a big request to CCP to change the very foundation of the settings system and variety of modules for the corp and the POS. Main goal is vastly increased amount of settings and ability to isolate a potential spy or liability to her/her/its own module or tab of module or individual job. To aid this a new modular POS involves use of smaller modules. (Individual Hangar, ship hangar etc..) Some are calling for a system like X3s yet I will settle just for more ability at isolation.
What it will result in is vastly improved ability for smaller (and larger to a slightly lesser extent) corps in EVE to recruit with the knowledge that it will be far harder for a spy or thief to make off with assets. This will cause demand for new members to skyrocket and put huge pressure on corps and alliance that do things like "Join or log off" CTAs, Huge member dues, Full API demand, moon gooz hogging, good ole boy clubs etc... |

Roscada
We love Egg
14
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Posted - 2012.01.10 19:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
New Eden is built on backstabbing, scamming, and cutting out your own segment of the market. Anyone willing to compromise their own isk flow by giving a full API to a CEO they don't know and trust deserves whatever they get. |

My Neutral Toon
Knights Who Til Recently Said Ni
2
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Posted - 2012.01.10 20:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
Unless you are a spy you don't need to be paranoid about giving your API. They CAN NOT get into your account with your API. |

Roscada
We love Egg
14
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Posted - 2012.01.10 20:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
My Neutral Toon wrote:Unless you are a spy you don't need to be paranoid about giving your API. They CAN NOT get into your account with your API.
That's not the point. The point is that they will know your alts, your fits, your hangar, your sources of income, agents you speak to regularly, your mail, your contacts, your likely haunts, everything.
Information is a valuable commodity; in some cases the most valuable. Only an idiot would just hand all of that over to join a corp. |

Jita Alt666
861
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Posted - 2012.01.10 20:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:TheTradeMonkey wrote: The question still stands though, how do you filter for spys?
aside from API: forum search - special attention to character bazaar and Timecode Bazaar. checking employment history - maybe there are some alt corps in there? evewho is great for this sort of thing checking contracts history - not complete but it might give you some pointers checking killboards - who did he fly with? who did he kill? If you have your own spies inside entities that you suspect to spy on you you can also do interesting stuff like * watermarking important forum posts/announcements to trace leaks (look for the PL forum mirror it has some nice info on this: idea is that you display different versions of the same post to each viewer, e.g. by automatically replacing some characters with equally looking but different unicode characters based on the viewer's forum userid; or by offering different combinations of synonyms - e.g. four words with one possible synonym for each gives you 16 different versions of the forum post which already cuts down the number of people you suspect of having leaked the post considerably) * harvesting IPs, e.g. post a link to some funny image hosted on a server you have access to on your enemies' forum, log IPs & timestamps which access that image, try to connect them to characters that replied to your post, compare to your own people's IPs that you harvested through your TeamSpeak server. (or have your spy post a link to your file during some roam, that way you know pretty well who has clicked it, try to correlate IPs with characters by e.g. using the country information displayed by TeamSpeak; If there is only one German in the roam the German IP is probably him). Also use voicecomms logs to look for people who listen in on ops but don't participate (or people who only log in for pvp ops). Check IPs that access your own forums or voicecomms for obvious proxies/VPN providers. * make note of idiosyncratic misspellings or grammar fails * keep a close eye on people who are too eager to x up or never x up when you call for all spais to 'x' up in fleet chat. j/k  * ... In general kicking a spy will only result in him being replaced by another one that is harder to detect. My advice would be that unless you suspect one of your FCs or directors/CEOs to spy on you, don't bother too much about it.
I find it amusing that the OP believes full API use is a ludicrous abuse that is way over the top but somehow IP tracking image searches and userid unicoding of forum posts is not.
I agree the methods you have suggested here work and are useful - if your alliance has access to quality IT staff. |

gfldex
263
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Posted - 2012.01.10 20:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
TheTradeMonkey wrote:not trolling, genuinely want to know as I'm failing to see the other side of the coin.
Because they don't like it. Human behavior is defined by feelings not reason. By asking for an API key you imply that you have good reason not to trust somebody. Hurt feelings hurt.
There is still hope for EVE:
"Best Regards, GM Ninjapirate" |

Skorpynekomimi
E.A.D Alliance Omega Vector
81
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 21:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
- Knowledge is power. Power corrupts.
- What I do, where my ISK comes from, who I talk to, and any alts are my business and my business only. You will know what I care for you to know.
- So, you think I'm a spy? **** YOU FOR EVEN CONSIDERING THAT.
(Note: Possible viewpoints. Don't kick me out the corp for trying to get into people's heads.) |

Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1257
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 21:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Some people just take this game too seriously.
Forwarding your Post. Competition. Thats it. Its game. Game is defined by ability to success or fail. To success you have to do everything what is available. Therefore Spies are part of the EVE in the larger schemes... Good spy is in big ally for years, get trust, move higher in the ranks and ultimately destroy said alliance. It happened before it will happen after. Of course moving your agent for such long journey got its downfall, like the spy become loayal to the alliance he was designed to destroy.. Therefore more spies are better.
However API keys for "non-important spaceship alliances/corporations" are just non-important and are developed just to make said ally/corporation look important. 
Also i dont really care about my API i give it freely to anyone who asks.. full account API  Include my Alts API. |

BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
9
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Posted - 2012.01.10 22:28:00 -
[40] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: well. you have never had situations when your enemy knows every ship, fit and move of your fleet? I have had it few times. This is real pain i would say. When you loose battle before start just because of some ****** spy in your corp/alliance. When your every command on comms is known to your opponent.
Maybe some day you will understand it.... When you start to play MULTIPLAYER Eve and not only INCURSION Online.
to OP and March -
This has nothing to do with - and will never be solved by - requesting full API access. They could open up every players full information free of access and you would still miss a good spy. Even if you were on top of it, luck will win out eventually.
Finding spies is an active endeavor. Not something you can just check off after reviewing an API. Someone you clear as legit can get pissed at you for any reason and BECOME a spy, so where did your API check get you. And If you suck at managing people and cannot set up your command structure to detect and root out spies or something fishy, no amount of info given to you will help. You want to find evil spies... be a fu*king leader and find them, there is no magic filter for it.
Not to mention, how many times have I switched alliances only to still have access to Teamspeak servers or chat rooms, watching fleet movement. No API check will solve those kinds of management problems. You probably overlooked something and want to blame it on API access.
As for myself, I have had only one character for 8 years, no alts and I NEVER give out my full API access, never will. Too many good alliances and good corp don't require it and my full API has too much information that is simply irrelevant to good management.
At the end of the day, asking for everything available shows you don't know how to use what you currently have. Personally I use Full API access requests as my own litmus test to see if a corp is good or not.
Maybe someday you will understand this... when you lead real professionals instead of intertube spaceship pilots. |

Cur
Nova Australis Dark Knights of New Eden
41
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Posted - 2012.01.10 23:07:00 -
[41] - Quote
Big alliances want api key's because:
A majority of corporations have absolute idiots as recruiters, who would recruit a 1mth old character that's been in 20 different corps, some only for 1-2 hrs at a time, and honestly be baffled that said member went around awoxing.
When it comes to managing you're members, noone wants to do the job properly, its a game, not managing staff at you're local HR department. Tho its a necessary task for running a big alliance.
You get intel - X player is doing this. You get their API key, you look.
Here's to you, Bad Tast!
We had a guy whom was suspected by many as spying for the enemy. This suspected member has given their full API to he corp leader. When accusations were made the API was handed over to another alliance person, who did some digging.
The results found that, while no trace of mailing the enemy back and forward, that said person was a hell of a big scammer, to the point where they told someone IRL (someone that knew this person irl too) they'd send them a new Video Card in exchange for Isk. The isk was sent, video card never to be seen.
The player was booted for the scamming alone, but this player never changed his API and settled down in an alliance still within our space, dispite warnings to the other alliance not to recruit them.
More sus things happen, and question's are asked to said player - who totes they sold their super apon leaving our alliance as there was no point to having it.
Check the API - whats this? Nyx on a holding char in this system? wait wasnt that sold? oh right, you're lying again.
This is why big corps/alliances want you're API. If you say one thing, and it doesnt add up, it brings a feeling of distrust. To remove the feeling if distrust a full body pat down is required in the form of an API snoop. The API snoop normaly reveals alot about the player - so common sense should even tell you - if you have a player, nomatter how nice they may seem, if they keep lying about everything, why would you trust them?
tho, most corps/alliances want your'e api and do absolutely nothing with it, thinking the fact they asked alone scares you into being a good little pet (by the sounds of the OP, either bad spy's or paranoids dont want their api's known) -
kind of like how if you go to you're local shopping centre you're face is videotaped at about 100 diff angles thru 500 different cameras, shipped to a secure site then stored for 7 years "just in case" - most people understand this is a breach of privacy, but go along with it as its a condition to enter the shopping centre.
Others, generaly mentally insane or the kind of person that would wait till the store is closed then break in to steal money.... are against surveilance for the same reasons as people in game dont want their API checked. |

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
655
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 23:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
Cur wrote:Big alliances want api key's because: they like fishing.
I have characters that are red to each other.
They are not spies so I don't cover their tracks. If I did give a full API to one of the anal corps described above, I'd be sure to not get in. There are other things about me that I don't want known.
Let's face it. I'm an in-your-face forum alt. Contrary to the likes I have, the hate mail more than balances them out. There are corps that would love to have the names of my actual playing characters to try and grief me out of the game.
That will never happen.
Mr Epeen 
Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |

Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
135
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 00:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Beyond the obvious reasons mentioned here already (spy research, etc), it's also used to help ease outside service logistics like teamspeak and forum registrations, hugely relevant for large alliances.
For smaller corps/alliances such information can also be used to help build sensible fleet comps, as well as help others help new players with advice, etc.
Personally I would never join a corp that does not ask for this information as it would be a likely indication of leadership incompetence. You have to have the basics down, api keys are part of the basics, especially now with the more granular limited api system.
|

Avid Bumhumper
Furian Necromongers
18
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Posted - 2012.01.11 01:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
Wouldn't you be better off with the terrible ones? You use them, feed them bad info and maybe set a trap or two.
Your not going to catch the good ones, seems like everyone agrees on that. But if that 's the case, wtf would you actually waste your waking hours on researching some person for a game? 
|

Crystal Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
131
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 01:40:00 -
[45] - Quote
Never understood why CEOs in this game feel they are "entitled" to see everyones alts.
I can't even figure out which one is my main  |

Zangorus
Anquer Mentula
585
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 01:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
I got purged from renter corp cause ex PL guy gave me 1 isk Like my comment and recieve 1 million isk ingame! |

Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
536
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 05:19:00 -
[47] - Quote
Cur I can understand that you have other uses for the Full API besides finding alts. I would never support forcing you direct to accept a limited API key.
However, You do need to be aware that the landscape will eventually change so that there will be more choice in the selection of corps. This may affect your alliance's ability to recruit.
I would suggest to everyone to start getting used to the idea of skillset only keys. Because once those become popular with modular POS. It will become a major change in the recruiting landscape.
Zangorus wrote:I got purged from renter corp cause ex PL guy gave me 1 isk
While I have no evidence this actually happened. It does bring up a point that there are very easy ways to **** a character out of any chance to join his/her preferred alliance. This is partly due to the rather poor corp and POS management systems but does highlight that privacy is a valid need in this game for many members. |

Killstealing
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
339
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 06:20:00 -
[48] - Quote
Hokay yea? So I have this alt, IfYouInviteMe2Corp IWillAWOXYou. If a CEO wouldn't ask me for api, he would NEVER know that that alt is an awoxing alt. |

Killstealing
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
339
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 06:20:00 -
[49] - Quote
also yes I got invited on that alt, google the name |

Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
47
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 07:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
The biggest reason its claimed done is "security" but it doesnt assure anything for spies as multiple accounts are promenant and any spy is going to have that already. What Id like to hide isnt the character Im applying with but any other toons on the accounts mainly because playing red vs blue vs the middle is a huge thing. Whos to say that the leaders of those alliances/corps dont themselves have pirate or suicide alts or accounts that will simply use the information gained to find out who to target or kill. Then using neutral or pirate alts they will attack, grief, etc those players or their corps.
It allows for any character beyond cyno alts or other useless alts from being on that account to hie any sort of manufacturing industries or other high sec, low sec, null sec industry from prying eyes.
In a game built on piracy its basically saying HI here come attack any alts I might have that arent protected while ensuring that your alts are protected because youve built the corp or alliance yourself. Because if you think that hiding industry or trade alts isnt needed in this game, or that there will be those in leadership roles that wont abuse such things due to the ease of it your really out to lunch. Its one of the best ways of piracy imo. Join a industry corp with an industry/mission runner toon and have a pirate alt and just simply target those who you find are juicy.
After so many years in this game I KNOW Im being targeted by people. In fact after so long I think its hilarious knowing it and watching them follow you around or try to set up ganks or this and failing miserably thinking your a fool. Its one of the only reason this game is even remotely interesting or difficult. This is a game where, like other FPS games, its your friends thatll TK you the hardest and most because they can and its funny, then log on their alts to listen to your whine after they ganked you. Its a game about tears without friends and everyones an enemy. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak. |
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