EVE Search - The Case for Bots

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Market Discussions

The Case for Bots

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Una Versa Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.20 06:24:00 - [1] (or "When AI is outlawed, only outlaws will use AI") I was just reading another bot-fighting/accusing thread & just thought I'd share what's been bugging me about the whole thing. And I know I'm completely alone on this, so I'll try not to get too worked up over it, but EVE isn't WoW - this is a game about the future, with space ships and fancy supercomputers. Imagine, just imagine, if AI was not outlawed, but encouraged & written into the game. And AI scripts & bots were bought and sold for isk. Imagine the escalation and the evolution of the AI involved in the game. Farmers would come across advanced anti-farming bots, you just invested in a networked market bot that coordinates your buying and selling across 5 regions, I can have an afk travelbot that cloaks & flees when pirates are near, PvP'ers would have drones that were not a bunch of morons, NPCs could use player developed AI tactics & actually be a challenge beyond just their sheer numbers. All of these things will exist in the future at some point. How cool would it be to get closer to that reality and explore AI evolution in such a very cool pvp based game? I just think it's a bit silly to immerse myself in a future world and fly in spaceships, but then not have my super-advanced spaceship not be able to automatically "raise shields" when an enemy locks on. And about the market bots - some of the things that these bots can do (if they exist) already exist in eBay (like automatically increasing your bids). The War On Bots we're fighting is useless - as it always gets pointed out, sweatshops are always a cost-effective alternative to bots, and you can't outlaw people. I'd like to see this game get closer to the future reality as opposed to fighting a losing battle by hiding behind the traditional model that better suits Wow. And no, I don't use bots. I don't want an unfair advantage. I want to fight, scheme and invest in a fair advantage - just like every other aspect of this game.
Blazing Fire Interstellar Operations Incorporated	Posted - 2007.07.20 06:43:00 - [2] So basicaly you want everybody to have such a bot? Then the will start overbiddin each other until prices skyrocket or the server crashes Blazing Fire CEO Interstellar Operations Incorporated Corp web site Recruting Services [Service] Killboard hosting [Service] Forum hosting [Service] Web site hosting [Service] Obelisk loaning [Service] Alliance Creation
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.07.20 08:46:00 - [3] Hi, Lineage2 already has such a system in place. Not official of course, but its there. All it results in is a lot of afk gamers. There is nothing special about bots/bot scripts. I like that Blizzard allowed their UI to be customised, certainly that method has had great results. I don't even know how eve would do with that, the things that got created in wow I'dve never thought were coming. Who knows how it would change the game. But really, not worth doing more than speculate on within your own mind. It is not, and it will not be. For damned good reasons. God, can anyone remember when people used to play their damned games?
Leika Sinn Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.20 10:26:00 - [4] Edited by: Leika Sinn on 20/07/2007 10:28:08 Grandpa: "Are you usin those darn bots again!? I don't pay for yer darn games to play themselves! Why when I was a youngin, we used to play our games wit our own two hands and ten fingers!" Kid 1: "But Grandpa, how else will I eBay enough ISK to pay for my iPhone??" Kid 2: "Yeah grandpa, don't be such a n00b." Ahh yes, those will be the days. Classic.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.20 10:32:00 - [5] If everyone was using bots, no one would make any money ebaying ISK.
Leika Sinn Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.20 11:25:00 - [6] Originally by: James Duar If everyone was using bots, no one would make any money ebaying ISK. I believe Lineage II, among many other asian-based MMOs, proves you entirely wrong.
Shenko Minara	Posted - 2007.07.20 11:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Leika Sinn Originally by: James Duar If everyone was using bots, no one would make any money ebaying ISK. I believe Lineage II, among many other asian-based MMOs, proves you entirely wrong. Actually I'm pretty sure it proves him entirely right. The only people buying game money are the people not using bots. -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you.
Nocturnal Avenger The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.07.20 11:43:00 - [8] /me waves hand. "There are no bots" - Carebear Pirate -
Leika Sinn Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.20 11:49:00 - [9] Originally by: Shenko Minara Actually I'm pretty sure it proves him entirely right. The only people buying game money are the people not using bots. Actually no. The farmers controlling the bots do spend a chunk of their income on RMT purchases. Just because they control the bots, does not mean they own them, or even get to keep 3% of what is farmed. That's like saying a mechanic never spends money on fixing his own car, because he fixes other peoples cars all day long. Rubbish.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.20 11:53:00 - [10] I like the idea, very X-esque. In fact, I'd love to be able to control trade fleets with AI - I mean the NPC corps can!

Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2007.07.20 12:00:00 - [11] Interesting point. I would love to have some NPC wingmen and stuff. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.20 12:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Del Narveux Interesting point. I would love to have some NPC wingmen and stuff. What, like drones or fighters? Without the daft AI, ofc.
Shenko Minara	Posted - 2007.07.20 12:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Leika Sinn Originally by: Shenko Minara Actually I'm pretty sure it proves him entirely right. The only people buying game money are the people not using bots. Actually no. The farmers controlling the bots do spend a chunk of their income on RMT purchases. Just because they control the bots, does not mean they own them, or even get to keep 3% of what is farmed. That's like saying a mechanic never spends money on fixing his own car, because he fixes other peoples cars all day long. Rubbish. You weren't very clear but I assume you mean that once they go off-duty and play the game themselves, then they use their income for RMT? If that's the case then you're classifying them twice, once as a macro-farmer that doesn't buy any ISK because he has a macro, and once as a player that doesn't use macros. The latter point goes against your argument, not for it. Sorry. vv -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you.
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.20 12:12:00 - [14] "Screw the rules, I have money" - Some British guy impersonating a cartoon character. Mmkay, let us say for arguments sake that bots are not only totally allowed in use on EVE, but actually encouraged. Then what happens? Obviously since we can already afk-skill-train and bots make it possible to afk-earn-ISK, we can more or less afk the entire game except for PvP. Furthermore, since most players have skill points correlating to their birth date, bots will likely make it so money also correlates to their birth date. The amount of time you play would have almost no impact on ISK-earning. Alright, but that still leaves PvP. But hold up, isn't most of PvP a group effort? Well, if we use bots, why work in groups at all? Couldn't we just be loners? I predict massive 1v1 PvP dueling... like Harry Potter in space. Is that what you want? Harry Potter in space?
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.07.20 12:20:00 - [15] AIs banned and hunted in the future. probably.
Asestorian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.20 12:25:00 - [16] Edited by: Asestorian on 20/07/2007 12:27:06 The problem is, EVE is a game. Bots may be realistic, and even when you put them like you have, cool, considering the time period EVE is supposed to be set in, but it's not exactly fun. When I play EVE, I want to actually play. I want my own abilities, and the time I spend actually playing, to count for something. Otherwise all you are going to do is get people who are really good at coding and that kind of stuff to make tons of ISK. I'm ******* rubbish at doing all that coding crap, so I'd be completely screwed. Totally and utterly screwed. Honestly, I think the game would become a bit of a mess. Trading would become automated, so there is no skill in that. Mining, which is already automated by some but outlawed, would become even more pointless than it already is. In fact, any way to make money in the game would become pointless. We may as well just be given a load of ISK and told to go randomly fight each other, because that's what it would end up being. All the cool interesting parts of EVE outside of combat would become no fun at all for any real player. And new players would never compete, they would never be able to afford the bots. People start making the bots and selling them for ISK. Then eventually loads of people have the bots, and they use them to make loads more ISK to buy more bots. Eventually the price for them is so high, only those with loads of bots already can afford to buy more. Once that happens, those without bots are screwed forever, and no new player will ever be able to effectively play the game. The game then dies. The end. EVE can be described as "real life in space". But it is still a game at the end of the day, despite how close it gets to reality at some points. Let's just leave the bots to taking over our real lives, instead of screwing up the fun in our virtual ones Edit: Also, Seto Kaiba. (And Yu-Gi-Oh Abridged Series) --- ---
Leika Sinn Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.20 12:27:00 - [17] Edited by: Leika Sinn on 20/07/2007 12:28:13 Originally by: Shenko Minara You weren't very clear but I assume you mean that once they go off-duty and play the game themselves, then they use their income for RMT? If that's the case then you're classifying them twice, once as a macro-farmer that doesn't buy any ISK because he has a macro, and once as a player that doesn't use macros. The latter point goes against your argument, not for it. Well, no **** a guy doesn't buy personal ISK in the middle of working. And guess what, people don't generally spend time and money on their hobbies in the middle of a work-shift. If that's the kind of moot point you really want to argue, then you should take this Tech II sanity test.
Shenko Minara	Posted - 2007.07.20 12:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Leika Sinn Well, no **** a guy doesn't buy personal ISK in the middle of working. And guess what, people don't generally spend time and money on their hobbies in the middle of a work-shift. If that's the kind of moot point you really want to argue, then you should take this Tech II lame attampt at a rickroll that's so last month . I don't mean to be rude, but if the point is so moot, shouldn't you have thought of that before posting in the first place? James Duar made a good point and you tried to defecate on it without actually thinking it through. :/ -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you.
Miss Anthropy School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:02:00 - [19] It was only a matter of time until someone made a "Macrominers have rights too" thread. This is almost it.
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:33:00 - [20] Not really, Miss. At the risk of getting a bit political, its like gun control. Ban guns and criminals will still use them, because they by nature dont obey the law like everyone else does. Thus they gain an unfair advantage over everyone else, since theyre the ones with the guns and as Kevin Costner says in an otherwise forgettable movie, **** the gold he who has the nickel-plated makes the rules. Its the same thing with macro mining, the macros are going to keep doing it no matter what because they can, legit players wont as long as stuff like that is illegal, and the OP is saying the only way to really neutralize macros ill gotten advantage is to essentially level the playing field so everyone has access. Im not sure I totally agree with that line of thought, but eve does need more AI components beyond brainless NPC pirates and those haulers that randomly pop up in empire space and do a whole lot of nothing. One of the things thats made games like Freelancer so endearing is the depth of immersion brought about by having lots of NPCs running around doing stuff. Yeah, its an MMOG theres lots of player ships about, but since 95% of them would probably profit from your death in one way or another it feels more like a big collection of one-man-against-the-world stories than a galaxy full of life and stuff going on. And aside from all that, mining is just freakin boring and it would be an awesome leap for mankind if nobody had to do it anymore, or at least did fun mining like chasing comets for rare minerals...anything but staring at an asteroid for hours on end. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..

James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:36:00 - [21] The issue is, you can say what you want about your skills mattering - far too often they don't. If something works well with bots, then it's a broken game mechanic that should be corrected so it actually requires human intervention to work well. No one would care about harder ratting, if the rewards were higher and you felt like you were good at something when you succeeded at it. Same with mining. Not quite the same with missioning (that does require some attention). ---
Una Versa Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:40:00 - [22] Miss Anthropy, this is more of a "let's obliterate the macro-miners" thread. If the good guys have bots to hunt farmers, how long will it be before the sweatshops and mining bots become useless? And Lineage2 is much like EVE in that there are rampant bots, but they are illegal. If everyone has them, then the farmers and cheaters lose the advantage. Cal nereus & Asestorian: You're assuming that everything would remain static. If you made or bought a bot script (and last month's bot script/upgrade version would be very affordable) and left it afk, in a week it would be far less effective, and in a month mostly useless. Other AI would be upgraded to counter yours or do it that much better. The afk isk machine would simply not work, unlike today where it apparently works great for the bot cheaters. This would create an arms race. And unless we're talking about supercomputer AI, you, playing without AI would be able to outsmart & outfly any AI. So the hands-on option would not get squeezed out of the equation in any way. Think of Star Trek, when Picard says "Attack pattern Delta! Make it so!" - you could still be completely in control but have add on scripts that carry out complex (or simple) tasks to aid your efforts - like activating modules when someone locks on. How could that be bad? And I think that's part of the point - there are different levels of incorporating player-added AI into the game. Clearly I'd love to see it go all the way & few agree, but there's no reason to think all AI is Evil & not add bits in here and there.
Drulik Wingsfan Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:46:00 - [23] So what would be the point of playing EVE if everything was automated? O.o
Shenko Minara	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Una Versa a lotta werds I think the key point here is that we need not be adding more complexity to the eve system right now. -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.20 14:54:00 - [25] One thing though - to make it fair, it would have to be server based. Which would mean a vast, huge, massive increase in lag. I think on that alone we can say no :-)
Una Versa Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.21 00:39:00 - [26] Well sure, if you guys want to be all reasonable and logical about it then ok, not a chance. And TBH, I'm one of those players that would love to see no new features in EVE for the next year & just have everyone at CCP busting their hump to fix what's broken, in gameplay and in the code. I suppose my real point is to see if we can get away from the "AI is EVILLL" mentality & move it to our (10 year plan?) wishlist instead, even if just the small bits, like activating modules when someone locks on & having customiseable drones with upgradeable drone AI. That'd be neat.
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.21 02:38:00 - [27] Well, speaking out of corrupt self-interest, I'm gonna say I'm scared by the arms race prediction for player-run AI. So normal people like me who don't even know how bots and programs and all that junk work (but still enjoy playing EVE right now) would basically be dependent on those who do know something about that stuff? Out of corrupt self-interest, I oppose that idea. On the other hand,... wait, there is no other hand. I don't see anything good that could come out of this except maybe "realism," and realism for realism's sake is not my cup of tea either. :-/
Artmedis Valben Gallente Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2007.07.21 03:09:00 - [28] We already have some very limited automation, like the auto-target option. Like repeated cycles on mods or manual activation. Auto-reload is another. Auto activation of modules is another possibility. But I would like it to remain entirely a part of the customization and server side. Player scripts for market manipulation and macro mining, or isk/RL money market for such scripts is something I am dead against. It takes all the fun out of the game, making most of it mindless. EVE's primal strength is its vibrant market. Do not allow automation of the market. ___________________________________________ Selling PERFECT PRINTS of almost all seeded BPOs. Lobster of Babel currently holds 671 of the 728 Tech 1 BPOs seeded. 7 ships and Capital are missing.


Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.