| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
   |
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:01:00 -
[1]
With the recent changes to stealth bombers (3 launcher slots for all of them) the manticore seems to need a bit of a fix.
The description reads as follows: "Lai Dai have always favored a balanced approach to their mix of on-board systems, leading to a line-up of versatile ships. The Manticore differs from other stealth bombers by virtue of its additional launcher hardpoint."
I realise that the other bombers needed a bit of a boost, but if that is the case, would it not be possible to adjust the manticore as well so that we don't get to a situation (which seems likely) that all race ships are really the same just with different modules.
Gallente are drone specialists
Amarr are the tank
Minmatar are the flying ductape of speed
Caldari are the missile specialists
Please can we keep to some differences between the races?
My suggestion: give the Manticore 4 launcher slots, or an additional mid or low slot.
Let the flames begin!
|
fartajlerKapa
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:10:00 -
[2]
signed  |
Achura Citizen 513536
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:14:00 -
[3]
I Agree completely all the other Stealth Bombers got an extra hardpiont why not the manticore?
well done CCP!
|
PWNERIZE
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:16:00 -
[4]
I'd be happy if they reduced its mass. Another Caldari ship not worth flying over its competitors  .
|
jam6549
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:27:00 -
[5]
i can tell this thread is gonna go nowhere...unlucky
Jam6549
|
Mort Sinious
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:32:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Mort Sinious on 20/07/2007 12:31:50
Diversity is good. One ship better than the others is bad though.
So, some differences on SBs would be nice, but not simply make one better in the same thing than the others. The usual approach would be to give each racial SB the large Alpha-strike weapon of it's race. Large Rails for Gallente, Large Arty for Minmatar, Large Beam for Amarr.
I doubt however that such weapons work with the role of a stealth-bomber...
|
Maulrex X
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:37:00 -
[7]
Signed.
|
Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Scorpyn on 20/07/2007 12:47:46
Actually it's probably not a good thing if the manticore is better than the others... although it does have some serious cap and agility issues... (not saying that the others don't, I just don't know enough about them)
Edit :
cons : least cap, largest sig radius, lowest scan resolution, least power grid, lowest velocity, most weight
pros : highest sensor strength, longest targeting range, most cpu
2007-07-19 20:26 |
jam6549
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:39:00 -
[9]
oh, ccp? can u make all amarr ships have infinite cap...seeing as they're the cap race and all? yeh, k thnx
Jam6549
|
Plave Okice
Naughty 40
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:58:00 -
[10]
How many Manticore BPO's do you own then?
|
Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 13:09:00 -
[11]
Manticore is fine as it is, maybe give it a little more grid or something but otherwise leave it be. People who talk about boosting manti on account of caldari being the missle race are forgetting that stealth bombers are very specialized, they do only one thing and thats shoot cruise missles that own frigates. Theyre not even stealthy, seeing as how you cant warp while cloaked or anything useful like that. Its not like geddon vs raven where one shoots guns and one shoots missles, they all do the same thing.
Before the bombers were buffed, manti was overpowered compared to the other SBs. Or more accurately, the manti was decent and the other three were garbage. Now theyre all decent, which is good, giving one of the bombers more slots would only make the other three worthless again.
_________________
[SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
 Originally by: Wrangler
Well, at least we have forum PvP..
|
Redwolf
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 13:21:00 -
[12]
How are you supposed to tank a purifier?
----
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
PWNERIZE
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 13:23:00 -
[13]
400mm plate? MSE? Asking for an extra launcher hardpoint is ridiculous, the balance of the stealth bombers before was not balance at all. But right now the manti does not have much going for it, regardless of being the "missile race" or not.
|
000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 14:05:00 -
[14]
Still though, funny how ccp turned another caldari ship from best to worst in 1 patch, gotta love em for that!
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
|
Beef Hardslab
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 14:58:00 -
[15]
The only thing the Manti could use is more goddamn cap so I can get across a system in less than 5 jumps, or some more fitting so I can equip 2 BCS and still have a decent midslot layout.
Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
|
Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 16:04:00 -
[16]
The fix to this is obvious:
Remove the line in the Manticore description that mentions the extra launcher hardpoint
Problem solved
***
|
000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 16:38:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Stitcher
The fix to this is obvious:
Remove the line in the Manticore description that mentions the extra launcher hardpoint
Problem solved
Or add a 4th launcherslot  Specialized ship or not, caldari IS the missile race i think the manti deserves a missile bonus in one way or another over the other 3 races.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
|
Zkillz kun
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 16:50:00 -
[18]
stealth bombers are a ship that is so specialized it doesn't make sense to keep the standard racial differences. i think instead of making it wtfpwn by giving it another launcher it needs some more agility/cap/pg or whatever to make it more like the others. i don't fly sb's but the tactical niche they fill should be a niche different races shouldn't be better or worse at it just because the niche is the races strong point. all the sb's should have the same stats :P or at least balanced so tehy can all warp the same distance, go the same speed, tank the same dps, and throw down the same dps.
|
Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 16:52:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 20/07/2007 16:55:22
Originally by: Eefrit
...My suggestion: give the Manticore 4 launcher slots, or an additional mid or low slot....
Do you, by any chance, happen to own a manticore BPO? 
Oh, by the way, since I sell purifiers - I think for the purpose of differentiation the purifier should be able to fire cloaked.
That's all.
EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
|
000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 17:03:00 -
[20]
3 points i would like to add:
1. the manti is now considered the worst bomber of the 4,
2. Caldari IS the missile race, their bomber beeing worse then the other 3 is silly just because of that, on a roleplaying basis i'm no Caldari but if i were i would NEVER stand for that.
3. if u want to keep all 4 bombers the same, why bother with 4 different ships at all, make 1 single ship and be done with it.
So there u have it, i think the manti deserves to be the best of or atleast equal to the other 3 if not with more launcherslots then atleast with some added bonus (ROF, damage, whatever), if u want to give the other 3 some different bonus to compensate a little thats fine with me.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
|
Miner Unleashed
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 17:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: 000Hunter000
3 points i would like to add:
1. the manti is now considered the worst bomber of the 4,
2. Caldari IS the missile race, their bomber beeing worse then the other 3 is silly just because of that, on a roleplaying basis i'm no Caldari but if i were i would NEVER stand for that.
3. if u want to keep all 4 bombers the same, why bother with 4 different ships at all, make 1 single ship and be done with it.
So there u have it, i think the manti deserves to be the best of or atleast equal to the other 3 if not with more launcherslots then atleast with some added bonus (ROF, damage, whatever), if u want to give the other 3 some different bonus to compensate a little thats fine with me.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
|
Matroshka
Crimson Squall
Molotov Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 17:19:00 -
[22]
That's cool and all that Caldari are the missile specialists and should excel with a missile boat, but why would anyone use any of the other bombers if they added another slot to the Manticore?
The whole ship class is based off of missiles. Maybe they should change them so that each bomber gets a pg bonus to their races respective large long range weapon.
-------------
|
Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 17:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Matroshka
That's cool and all that Caldari are the missile specialists and should excel with a missile boat, but why would anyone use any of the other bombers if they added another slot to the Manticore?
The whole ship class is based off of missiles. Maybe they should change them so that each bomber gets a pg bonus to their races respective large long range weapon.
good idea, except that the large gun models are roughly the same size as a frigate anyway. Try fitting a tachyon beam laser to an Inquisitor sometime and you'll find that the ship's dwarfed by the gun.
***
|
Matroshka
Crimson Squall
Molotov Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 17:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Matroshka
That's cool and all that Caldari are the missile specialists and should excel with a missile boat, but why would anyone use any of the other bombers if they added another slot to the Manticore?
The whole ship class is based off of missiles. Maybe they should change them so that each bomber gets a pg bonus to their races respective large long range weapon.
good idea, except that the large gun models are roughly the same size as a frigate anyway. Try fitting a tachyon beam laser to an Inquisitor sometime and you'll find that the ship's dwarfed by the gun.
I bet the cruise missile launchers would be about the same size if they were visable.
-------------
|
Silpher
The Blackstone Group
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 18:00:00 -
[25]
/signed. I miss being the uberwtfpwner of SBs. Now I'm gimped!
---
If after I post my opinion, you feel the need to say, "Oh, guess what BRUCE thinks," go put on a tinfoil hat and praise jesus. It's MY opinion, not BRUCEs. |
Drykor
Minmatar
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 18:10:00 -
[26]
And while you're at it, give minmatar interceptors a mass reduction, why the speed race doesn't have the fastest interceptors (except with tech2 mass reduction rigs) is a big mystery to me.
|
insidion
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 18:19:00 -
[27]
Couldn't agree more with the OP, and wholeheartedly agree with 000Hunter000's post. SB's in general are an extremely strange class. They are tricky as hell to fit almost any truly viable layout, can't use the covops cloak, and in general are a terrible t2 frigate that requires enormous training to even use, let alone excel at....even after the recent modifictions! Please maintain racial diversity and give people a chance to fit this class properly without blowing all the lows on mapc's and cpu's.
|
Trader Slave
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 18:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Eefrit
My suggestion: give the Manticore 4 launcher slots, or an additional mid or low slot.
Let the flames begin!
Translation: I have manticore BPO. I want it to make bigger profit. CCP do it now.
|
Zkillz kun
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 18:43:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Zkillz kun on 20/07/2007 18:43:30
from a rp standpoint you have differnt ships for different races. they wouldn't be EXACTLY the same but it makes no sense for any one to be better than each other, cause they aren't supposed to be different
|
Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 18:56:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Zkillz kun
Edited by: Zkillz kun on 20/07/2007 18:43:30
from a rp standpoint you have differnt ships for different races. they wouldn't be EXACTLY the same but it makes no sense for any one to be better than each other, cause they aren't supposed to be different
Well actually, if EVE were utterly true to its own RP background, the Caldari would just be better full stop - Caldari technology is so massively in advance of the other "main" empires that if they were accurately represented, their ships would be by far and away the most potent things in the game. The Gallente won the war on the back of sheer weight of numbers - one-for one, any given caldari ship is, from an RP perspective, so much more potent than its counterparts it just isn't funny.
By the same token, the only reason the Minmatar have any kind of an edge over the Amarr at all is because of their staggering weight of numbers - their technology is so massively inferior that in theory they need to throw something like a five-to-one numerical advantage in the fight to have any hope at all - whereas in the game, Minmatar ships are some of the best solo combat vessels around.
So with that in mind, we have to remember that EVE by and large ignores its own RP background for the sake of game balance, and rightly so IMO. We're playing a game here, and games have to be fair - if the Caldari were given preferential treatment purely for RP reasons, there really would be no point in playing any other race. And that's speaking as a Caldari pilot, too.
Let this drop, folks. Just remind the good folks at CCP to edit the description, and remember that the Manticore still does kinetic damage, at least.
***
|
Selene Le'Cotiere
Amarr
I-Omniscient-I
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 21:54:00 -
[31]
Well, instead of giving the Manti and extra launcher, there are a number of options available.
 Rate of Fire
Flight Time
Missile Velocity
Explosion Velocity
I'd be happy with any of those. Let the Manti have it's special oomph.
|
Beef Hardslab
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 21:58:00 -
[32]
Whatever happened to the speed boost SBs were supposed to get? I had heard their speed was pretty much doubled on the test server before Rev. I was much looking forward to hauling ass in my Manti. 
Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
|
Ararius
e X i l e
FREGE Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 22:24:00 -
[33]
Give it a 4th Launcher hardpoint and the extra grid/cpu to fit it
Originally by: Alski
It depends how much CCP learn from past user interface mistakes, i'm sure they'll do very well, but if not i'll be right clicking on random people and selecting "Orbit at 0.5m" |
Audri Fisher
Caldari
VentureCorp
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.07.20 22:52:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Eefrit
With the recent changes to stealth bombers (3 launcher slots for all of them) the manticore seems to need a bit of a fix.
The description reads as follows: "Lai Dai have always favored a balanced approach to their mix of on-board systems, leading to a line-up of versatile ships. The Manticore differs from other stealth bombers by virtue of its additional launcher hardpoint."
I realise that the other bombers needed a bit of a boost, but if that is the case, would it not be possible to adjust the manticore as well so that we don't get to a situation (which seems likely) that all race ships are really the same just with different modules.
Gallente are drone specialists
Amarr are the tank
Minmatar are the flying ductape of speed
Caldari are the missile specialists
Please can we keep to some differences between the races?
My suggestion: give the Manticore 4 launcher slots, or an additional mid or low slot.
Let the flames begin!
Caldari are the long range specialist.
merlin, harpy, moa, eagle, cormorat, ferox, vulture Rohk come to mind....
|
Selene Le'Cotiere
Amarr
I-Omniscient-I
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 00:36:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Caldari are the long range specialist.
merlin, harpy, moa, eagle, cormorat, ferox, vulture Rohk come to mind....
With that in mind... perhaps the Flight Time and/or Missile Velocity would be in line.
|
Raneru
Darwin With Attitude
oooh Shiny
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 01:29:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Eefrit
Please can we keep to some differences between the races?
EM, Kinetic, Thermal, Explosive.
while we are on changes tho, please can the nemesis have more grid? thx 
|
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 01:45:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Frug on 21/07/2007 01:45:56
Originally by: Mort Sinious
Diversity is good. One ship better than the others is bad though.
That's not true. Different ships in different classes for different races can and should be good at different things. Many people complain about the caldari sucking at pvp (with some exceptions, like jamming) There's no reason why one race shouldn't have a better stealth bomber. One race clearly has the best jamming ships already and that's not a bad thing.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Incantare
Caldari
Darkness Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 01:56:00 -
[38]
I have trouble following your logic. Caldari have the best jammer ships because they have the only jammer ships. Battleships are good at different things but should be equally good overall. However stealth bombers are very similar in purpose, comparisons are easier and there's no reason for one to be inferior.
|
Methem
The Hand of Mortis
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 07:56:00 -
[39]
I completely agree that the Manticore should be the strongest stealth bomber for using cruise missiles, since Caldari are of course the missile race.
Also since its the slowest, it should be designed more around the cruise launchers, instead of dropping bombs.
 A damage increase that is higher than the other races is what I would like to see(better alpha).
Another idea would be to give the Manticore a buff to cap regen and cpu(so you can properly use all of those midslots without any cap mods, while also fitting 2x BCU).
 Adding a ROF bonus isnt as good for the alpha strike as a damage bonus, since you dont always get to stay uncloaked for many volleys.
A missile velocity bonus wouldnt make a huge difference in most cases, unless it was quite a large buff. Most of the SB's I've seen/read use sensor damps, and without a bonus, you have to be relativly close to use those anyhow.
The same applys to the flight time.
Adding a 4th launcher hardpoint seems over the top IMO. You'd need to buff the CPU/PG to make a decent fit, which would bring the Manticore too far out of line with the other SB's.
|
Tuko kun
Gallente
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 09:17:00 -
[40]
Saying that the manti should get another launcher or another bonus because caldari are the missile race is silly. Almost every ship in teh game has a specific role that is diffrent for each race.
examples:
tier 1 bs: domi is a drone boat. scorp is a ecm boat.
hac's: deimos is up close baster beast. eagle is long range sniper
tier 1 bc: brutix is close range blaster (according to background) ferrox is long raneg sniper
now. stealth bombers, reguardless of race are designed with launching cruise and dropping bombs. just because caldari use missile more than anyone doesnt mean that they would have some godly bomber with loads more missiles than the rest. sure mabye some other bonus for each race with the caldari bonus being missile related. but no way should they get a 4th launcher. afetr all. what would stop the gallente stealing the design?
Chuck Norris played the eve beta. But when he fit a roundhouse kick to his ibis it caused the collapse of the eve gate, the minmatar to revolt, the jove to go into excile and drones turned stupid. |
Methem
The Hand of Mortis
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 09:34:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tuko kun
Saying that the manti should get ... another bonus because caldari are the missile race is silly.
Originally by: Tuko kun
sure mabye some other bonus for each race with the caldari bonus being missile related.
Originally by: Tuko kun
Almost every ship in teh game has a specific role that is diffrent for each race.
Well the roles are to either drop bombs or use launchers. You cant really do both without gimping your setup.
All of the other races drop bombs better than the Manticore, so why shouldnt it use launchers better?
|
Tuko kun
Gallente
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 09:52:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Methem
All of the other races drop bombs better than the Manticore, so why shouldnt it use launchers better?
[/quote
well there is a diffrence between using somthing better and using more of them. if you fit a drake and a ferox with 5 HML. what one would use them better?
Chuck Norris played the eve beta. But when he fit a roundhouse kick to his ibis it caused the collapse of the eve gate, the minmatar to revolt, the jove to go into excile and drones turned stupid. |
Methem
The Hand of Mortis
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 10:02:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tuko kun
Originally by: Methem
All of the other races drop bombs better than the Manticore, so why shouldnt it use launchers better?
[/quote
well there is a diffrence between using somthing better and using more of them. if you fit a drake and a ferox with 5 HML. what one would use them better?
If you are talking about adding another launcher to the Manticore, I agree that its a bad idea. Your response above made it sound like you are against a buff for the Manticore, and I personally think its in need of at least a small buff.
When I'm home from work I'll try to post a stat comparison.
|
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 10:10:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 21/07/2007 10:10:25
ehm this is a matter of balance. so every ship should get (roughly) the same firepower, no?
-> if caldari get an extra for "their" weapon class, i want large arties on my hound kthxbye
besides - if missles are your main weapon, you most likely have _all_ the skills. for everybody else, it's a secondary skill and stopping at lvl3/4 is common
so... just edit the description
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Brodde Dim
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 11:18:00 -
[45]
Drone bay enough for a couple of heavy drones on the Nemesis.
And a couple of tachyons on the purifier.
Both with bonus to them offcourse.
Sounds like a splendid idea.
|
insidion
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 15:57:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Raneru
Originally by: Eefrit
Please can we keep to some differences between the races?
EM, Kinetic, Thermal, Explosive.
while we are on changes tho, please can the nemesis have more grid? thx
Forget about the whole '4th missile slot for caldari', this is really what we're talking about. *ALL* SB's are too slow, too clumsy, have no tank, have too little CPU and fall way short on PG to make them truly useful ships. It still strikes me as odd that they can't use the covops cloak either. It's still too much against them, despite the recent changes.
|
Price Watcher
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 16:18:00 -
[47]
Signed.
However, don't expect any positive action from CCP. Expect that the Manticore will be nerfed some more.
CCP hates Caldari. Anytime a Caldari ship or weapon shows any signs of usefulness, CCP nerfs that usefulness and adds an extra nerf just for spite.
My advice is to train for Minmatar stealth bombers.
|
PCaBoo
Dirt Nap Squad
FREGE Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 16:42:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Price Watcher
Signed.
However, don't expect any positive action from CCP. Expect that the Manticore will be nerfed some more.
CCP hates Caldari. Anytime a Caldari ship or weapon shows any signs of usefulness, CCP nerfs that usefulness and adds an extra nerf just for spite.
My advice is to train for Minmatar stealth bombers.
:(
I don't get how all the SB's were useless, but you add a launcher for the rest of them except caldari and now the sb's are equal. 1+1=2 1+0=2?
________________________________
Caldari's are the Chosen people! |
murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 21:36:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Eefrit
With the recent changes to stealth bombers (3 launcher slots for all of them) the manticore seems to need a bit of a fix.
The description reads as follows: "Lai Dai have always favored a balanced approach to their mix of on-board systems, leading to a line-up of versatile ships. The Manticore differs from other stealth bombers by virtue of its additional launcher hardpoint."
I realise that the other bombers needed a bit of a boost, but if that is the case, would it not be possible to adjust the manticore as well so that we don't get to a situation (which seems likely) that all race ships are really the same just with different modules.
Gallente are drone specialists
Amarr are the tank
Minmatar are the flying ductape of speed
Caldari are the missile specialists
Please can we keep to some differences between the races?
My suggestion: give the Manticore 4 launcher slots, or an additional mid or low slot.
Let the flames begin!
No.
Originally by: Goumindong
it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
|
Cleveland Steam
Neverland Ranch Hands
|
Posted - 2007.07.21 21:46:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Cleveland Steam on 21/07/2007 21:46:03
They should give the manti a per-level optimal range increase to medium hybrids to fix the imba.
Plz dont nerf my sig again... |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |