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Flavor Vs Function: Battle of the Names!

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Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 2738	Posted - 2012.01.11 01:39:00 - [1] - Quote Well for those of you paying attention will realize that very soon we may all be waking up to a very different eve quite soon. Simply put the patch in question is going to turn this: Nova Fox wrote: Anaconda, Asp, Bane, Bloodclaw, Cataclysm, Catastrophe, Cobra, Concussion, Devastator, Doom, Dragon, Electron, Eradicator, Exterminator, Firefly, Flameburst, Foxfire, Fulmination,Ghost, Gremlin,Havoc, Hellfire, Hellhound, Hunter, Hydra, Inferno, Juggernaut, Mjolnir, Obliterator, Paradise, Piranha, Phalanx, Phoenix, Purgatory, Python, Rajas,Rift, Sabertooth, Scorch, Scourge, Seeker, Serpent, Shrapnel, Sol, Stalker, Terror, Thor, Thorn,Thunar, Thunderbolt, Torrent, Widowmaker, Wrath Into this Singularity wrote: Incidenary Mjonlir Nova Truama ^tl:dr, the below just justifies the for and against shown here and what it brings or takes away from eve And in the future then some more elsewhere. Most welcomingly hardwire implants, most abhorrently modules. Now currently there is feedback in the TSF fourum about it mostly decrying how falvor gets robbed/blander and the current comprimise that some of us are bringing forward is to make all the FOFs, Dumbfire, and Smart Fire missiels seperate names generated 12 instead of four names which is very likely to be heard and taken heed. Another suggestion was to add damage name into the current names which I partially disagree with considering that Really Really Long Item Name does not favorably do too well in alot of UI configurations. Which at that point you'd almost have to name a missile Caldari Navy F.O.F. EM Rocket Gremiln in hopes you dont cut off the EM and Rocket part and not caring if Gremlin gets cut off becuase its not as important. This is almost dipping into the annoyance factor. Now then the entire pupose of the above idea is to create 'conveyance' which in game development terms is basically allowing more for the player to self explore much more easily. A game that lacks conveyance winds up wtih players who go "Who am I, What do I do? Where do I go? How do I shoot web? " problem that some of the most horrible games in history and admittingly to some degree eve has. So instead of having a Jelly Belly Every flavor pack (which is quite nasty if you try to eat it all at once) you get Jelly Beams ordered in small themed flavor packs. (Berrylicous) So in the end we are facing a Everyflavor vs Berrylicous Everyflavor has quite a large variety to the point you start to forget what tasted good and what doesnt. I had been recently reminded why I dont like Buttere Popcorn Jelly Beans even worse I have to find the massive online chart for some of the beans of 'questionable' quality Like is it chocolate or cofee or toffee or caramel or licorsih? This is what eve is suffering from now, we are flooded with over 12,000 items and there are alot of us inable to remeber them all. I have to constantly look up meta-level of all sorts of modules as I fit ships of all prices ranges quite regularly at the shipyard. Berrylicous has few flavors to which I know remember and are quite fond of as I can easily remember whats in the berrylicous mix and watch each bean is in it without having to even look on the package anymore. What berrylicous mentality will bring is that we wont be losing out on 12,000 items they just come in more bite size and flavored packages you can almost predict the contents of. What if they suddenly introduced tropical wave flavor pack? Well I would be able to guess majority of the contents or even have an 'expectation' of what should be int he tropical wave. Can you imagine being able to look at a module and instantly guess, oh thats a meta level 2 item. Or how about a meta 4s you know that flavor too! Now as the argument goes back and forth in Test Server Feedback we do see another good reason why this can be a bad thing. Auto-link Mjolinir and I get: Singularity wrote: Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Dread Guristas Mjolnir Cruise Missile Dread Guristas Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile Dread Guristas Mjolnir Heavy Missile Dread Guristas Mjolnir Light Missile Dread Guristas Mjolnir Rocket Dread Guristas Mjolnir Torpedo Guristas Mjolnir Citadel Torpedo Guristas Mjolnir Citadel Cruise Missile Guristas Mjolnir Cruise Missile Guristas Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile Guristas Mjolnir Heavy Missile Guristas Mjolnir Light Missile Guristas Mjolnir Rocket Guristas Mjolnir Torpedo Mjolnir Citadel Torpedo Mjolnir Citadel Cruise Missile Mjolnir Cruise Missile Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile Mjolnir Heavy Missile Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Mjolnir Javelin Rocket Mjolnir Rage Rocket Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile Mjolnir Light Missile Mjolnir Fury Light Missile Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Mjolnir Precision Light Missile Mjolnir Precision Heavy Missile Mjolnir Precision Cruise Missile Mjolnir Rocket Mjolnir Torpedo This could be troublesome if too much homengenousity goes on. It be like typing in berrylicous and I get smoothie sour creamy and every sort of berrylicious combination possible. This makes the new idea just as bad as pre-game. Sure we can type in rocket and get a far smaller list or having to use two words instead quatering the entire list Mjolnir Rocket would only result in 4 returns. Then again I get the same sort of list when I type in Inheret Implants meh. Anyways there's the sides, the reason, and analogy to work with. Your thoughts? Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Xercodo Train Brigade 782	Posted - 2012.01.11 01:41:00 - [2] - Quote EMP S EMP M EMP L EMP XL ....I see no problem here Btw some of those that you listed were bombs and the outdated mines. I was gonna say "lol Scorch?" but that's a bomb too... lol As far as I can tell it's just missiles that's getting the change... The Drake is a Lie
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 2738	Posted - 2012.01.11 01:43:00 - [3] - Quote Xercodo wrote: EMP S EMP M EMP L EMP XL ....I see no problem here Basically thats what they just did. I mean I could type in Antimatter and get MORE results than the Mjonlir would bring back becuase there are other Anti-matter things that arent bullets in eve. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Xercodo Train Brigade 782	Posted - 2012.01.11 01:49:00 - [4] - Quote Nova Fox wrote: Xercodo wrote: EMP S EMP M EMP L EMP XL ....I see no problem here Basically thats what they just did. I mean I could type in Antimatter and get MORE results than the Mjonlir would bring back becuase there are other Anti-matter things that arent bullets in eve. "Antimatter Charge" would at least get all of the ammos EMP on the other hand can generate other items that have the word EMP in them Tip for laser people: use "ency X" (S/M/L/XL) to search for MF crystals quickly, "multi" doesn't help cause you get all of the multi spec ECMs too lol The Drake is a Lie
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 2738	Posted - 2012.01.11 01:51:00 - [5] - Quote Meh people are silly sometimes. Either way the test server junkies and role players are thorwing thier arms up over this. I for one would be going like dary Rocket to get all my flaming rockets or hell Rockets and get all the rocket types. However in the future modules may be getting changed too a similar idea for thier meta-levels IE Limited Meta 1 Advanced Meta 2 Prototype Meta 3 Experimetnal Meta 4 I would like to argue against this to some extent Like limit them by certain groups all the weapons go with one theme all the electronics annother all resistance module thier own anaming scheme. (which I think they already are) Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Renarla 1	Posted - 2012.01.11 02:15:00 - [6] - Quote I was not aware of this change - PLEASE let it make it to the live servers, this would remove a huge unnecessary learning curve from the game and would make life insanely easier even for us veterans. I fully support this.
Bayushi Tamago Killer Carebears Inc. 20	Posted - 2012.01.11 02:59:00 - [7] - Quote While the diff names are nice for flavor, I also approve of the name reduction to make it easier to search for multiple things in the market at the same time
Thorn Galen Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 342	Posted - 2012.01.11 04:55:00 - [8] - Quote I vote for Berrylicious. 12000 items - that's a daunting figure for any game, let alone one as difficult as Eve to get new people to play. Berrylicious will work here. heads over to test forums The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars.
Vyl Vit Cambio Enterprises 202	Posted - 2012.01.11 05:18:00 - [9] - Quote People involved with technology always name things in a way that makes no sense but to them... dynamo/generator...cookie...page file... Why start making sense now? We're used to translating from the Geek. To her it doesn't matter much.-á It's chasms have been leapt, and she leans upon the skepticism of her chosen fate.
Wot I Think State War Academy Caldari State 207	Posted - 2012.01.11 05:41:00 - [10] - Quote I support the name nerf, It makes the game better imho.
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 598	Posted - 2012.01.11 06:21:00 - [11] - Quote Bayushi Tamago wrote: While the diff names are nice for flavor, I also approve of the name reduction to make it easier to search for multiple things in the market at the same time We could have both. Like, renaming projectile EMP ammo to: EMP 'Thor' XL EMP 'Lightning' L EMP 'Shocker' M EMP 'Static' S Now you can either search by damage type "EMP" or type in a 'flavor' name which gets you exactly what you want, every single time once you learn the names of things that you care about.
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 302	Posted - 2012.01.11 07:52:00 - [12] - Quote Quote: Incidenary Mjonlir Nova Truama Personally, I'd prefer: Thermal Explosive EM Kinetic. I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile. Because why the hell complicate things?
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 179	Posted - 2012.01.11 08:04:00 - [13] - Quote Abdiel Kavash wrote: Quote: Incidenary Mjonlir Nova Truama Personally, I'd prefer: Thermal Explosive EM Kinetic. I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile. Because why the hell complicate things? Pretty much.
lior narkis Caldari Provisions Caldari State 13	Posted - 2012.01.11 08:04:00 - [14] - Quote Abdiel Kavash wrote: Quote: Incidenary Mjonlir Nova Truama Personally, I'd prefer: Thermal Explosive EM Kinetic. I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile. Because why the hell complicate things? True. I am on sale right now: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=633852&#post633852 8 year old 84Mil SP pure and perfect industry char!
Rel'k Bloodlor Mecha Enterprises Fleet 52	Posted - 2012.01.11 08:23:00 - [15] - Quote I really don't care, if it makes it ez than im for it. As for the fluff...really? This this has people up in arms? The time line in the game has progressed how much? Your translator interface is just making it ez to under stand we have no idea what there names are in the toungs of thouse that made them because they just make meat noses and or fancy bran addins tell us whats up, deal. you wanna talk about fluff? Why no Bloodraiders incursions? its already THEIR fluff to show up capture every one and kill them all to evil gods. Why do just sleepers (the Caldari) precursor race get an expansion? Why no modus legion, rouge drone, Equilibrium of Mankind, etc etc ships? (they all seem like fine candidates for the gel/amr or min/cal un-used pair up for pirate hulls) Why no new star systems sense WH/FW? the fluff talks about them being made all the time, how you have to slow boat there and set up shop but that thousands of these "start up gates" are in route as we speak Why no help from CONCORD one pirates attack you in hisec at a belt? Why do pirats not run from fights? There not immortal. Are they all under that much presser to not run? do there parent corps like the ship losses?
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet 1676	Posted - 2012.01.11 08:34:00 - [16] - Quote Abdiel Kavash wrote: Quote: Incidenary Mjonlir Nova Truama Personally, I'd prefer: Thermal Explosive EM Kinetic. I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile. Because why the hell complicate things? If you mean use the damage type in the name while retaining flavor names too, sure why not. If you mean just get rid of all flavor names and reduce it to damage type and missile type, then no. Reason being that makes it seem like you're just a lazy ass dev who didn't bother to polish your game at all. It's like instead of having names like "Niarja Myelen" you've got "Enemy 1" or "Sansha frigate 1" as ship names. It's simplifying things to the point it starts to seriously interfere with the enjoyment some people get from the game. Having to remember a single name per weapon damage type is already extremely easy, so getting rid of flavor names will propably be more harmful than helpful.
Avensys United Highsec Front The 99 Percent 84	Posted - 2012.01.11 08:35:00 - [17] - Quote I like the change. I hate having to click Show Info on 3 missiles just to find the one I want.
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 2743	Posted - 2012.01.11 08:53:00 - [18] - Quote Avensys wrote: I like the change. I hate having to click Show Info on 3 missiles just to find the one I want. True not all of us can see the green on those kenetic missiles to well and I do know there are color blind people in the world. I hate doing this to modules ever darn day. And if flavor was the deal then we need to go out and rename every faction mission uniquely and rename all the tech 2s uniquely and rename all the other ammo in a similar fashion I can almost gauranteed it will be a most hated change. And segregation into damage types wont be useful as long as thiere are resistance modules of the same name. Type in kinetic and you're abound to get back a list longer than you care to browse though. Since Destination Skillqueue is bringing up npcs there are about 150,000 (they probably added 5k more with incursions alone) different NPCs in the game most of them are almost renames of another frigate found elsewhere. I think a 'reduction' is in order to the point of giving the names a reason. Like making a name alwasy associate with its attack profile. Like make all the angle generals use artillery and try to keep out of range. Instead of having the Arch Gistums, Generals, War Generals, Seraphims, Lt.s Generals all hugging your face providing me with a degree of " What's the difference?" in raping my face? I mean if they started making npcs by role instead (like they do in some incursions the hostiles still feel rather generic mostly segregated into dont shoot that one yet, and kill everything else.) of bounty eve would probably be 1000% more interesting in the PVE world. Keep the individual NPCs simple unless its intended to be a 'boss.' Like one role each kind then a generic attack profile. IE our Incursion sencario. One of the frigates if providing Remote Weapon Upgrades to the other nearby ships. Another frigate is a squadron leader in anti-frigate and drone duties. Another frigate is target painting everyone and providing a sensor boosting and I want this to a point that when an Incursion FC steps in hell have to make the decision of which dies first becuase of the certain threat angle that ship's existence applies against his fleet. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Bayushi Tamago Killer Carebears Inc. 21	Posted - 2012.01.11 11:02:00 - [19] - Quote Kinetic Missiles are supposed to be green? I assumed they were grey to match the resistance profiles on the ship fitting screen. I do agree that rewriting some of the mission NPC AI would be nice to give some different stuff in missions like Pleasure Hub, but nothing insane like retargetting.
Winters Chill Valhalla Legion 43	Posted - 2012.01.11 12:49:00 - [20] - Quote I for one, do not believe new players are put off eve because the games rich naming convention Can't help but feel that this seems like an example of top down nebulous direction. I sort of imagine this happening: All the teams have a meeting, director of creativity or whatever says "okay guys we need to make more of an effort in making the game more accessible to all the FPS players that might try the game because of Dust". So all the teams have to think of a way, any way, no matter how stupid, to make the game more accessible, because they have literally been told to do that. So content or whoever changes the name of ammo. Of course I'm saying this because I like the weird, library of items in eve, the details are what makes Eve awesome. So therefore I don't like streamlining naming conventions. Your going to make eve a much blander experience. And that makes me a sad Winters Fake edit: This blandifying of games has reached epidemic proportions in the games industry. It's like making chess into draughts because you aren't selling enough chess boards "its too complicated for the bottom line". You change it yet still call it chess, but easier; "new chess", and new chess will attract more players, because it's old chess fun but more accessible, so everyone can enjoy it, right? Well I think it is a false economy, the people who like playing old chess, stop playing new chess and go find another version of old chess. Just saying this is a dangerous path for CCP to take. /skyisfalling
Wacktopia Noir. 140	Posted - 2012.01.11 12:55:00 - [21] - Quote Cyzlaki wrote: Abdiel Kavash wrote: Quote: Incidenary Mjonlir Nova Truama Personally, I'd prefer: Thermal Explosive EM Kinetic. I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile. Because why the hell complicate things? Pretty much. Part of the learning curve being so steep is the obfuscation caused by 101 different names. Imo, EVE should not be made hard or difficult by obfuscating information. .
DarkAegix Acetech Systems 759	Posted - 2012.01.11 12:57:00 - [22] - Quote Abdiel Kavash wrote: Quote: Incidenary Mjonlir Nova Truama Personally, I'd prefer: Thermal Explosive EM Kinetic. I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile. Because why the hell complicate things? But... But... SHINIES!
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 160	Posted - 2012.01.11 13:07:00 - [23] - Quote Scourge isn't a brand name. Or if it is, it's like Hoover. Completely generic. After all, what loyal Gallente would want to buy the same brand of missile as a die-hard Caldari? (either that, or the patent system's gone completely insane in Eve, allowing someone to patent 'a missile that explodes' ) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities.
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 2747	Posted - 2012.01.11 21:35:00 - [24] - Quote Yeah it never made any sense that a scourge missile be a brand name considering caldari navy and guristas and tech 2 uses them. they should have all original names if everyflavor bean thinking where to prevail. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 1073	Posted - 2012.01.11 21:40:00 - [25] - Quote I just shoot missiles. What's with all this name stuff?
Doc Fury Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 172	Posted - 2012.01.11 21:50:00 - [26] - Quote iamokwiththis.jpg Also, why not just link to the discussion thread in question asking for players to continue the discussion there instead of creating yet another discussion thread here? The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 2747	Posted - 2012.01.11 21:54:00 - [27] - Quote Because thats over there is turned into dribbeling mess that is showing signs of spinning out of control for sillier reasons than the original argument. This also discusses the future of this motion or direction which they said they are going to do with alot of places just so happens missiles are the first in the line. Also this is a discussion and secondly I am 800 characters over the limit and surprised it still displays dont have room to link it. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Doc Fury Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 172	Posted - 2012.01.11 21:57:00 - [28] - Quote Nova Fox wrote: Because thats over there is turned into dribbeling mess that is showing signs of spinning out of control for sillier reasons than the original argument. Also this is a discussion and secondly I am 800 characters over the limit and surprised it still displays dont have room to link it. Easy, delete everything and replace it with a 2 line summary and the link to the appropriate thread in the appropriate forum area asking people to go there and chime-in. If your other thread is getting trolled and etc, that's what the report link is for. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 2747	Posted - 2012.01.11 22:00:00 - [29] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Nova Fox wrote: Because thats over there is turned into dribbeling mess that is showing signs of spinning out of control for sillier reasons than the original argument. Also this is a discussion and secondly I am 800 characters over the limit and surprised it still displays dont have room to link it. Easy, delete everything and replace it with a 2 line summary and the link to the appropriate thread in the appropriate forum area asking people to go there and chime-in. If your other thread is getting trolled and etc, that's what the report link is for. Its not mine, and they're beginning ot argue conservative and progressive value/mentality, this would normally lead to a lock if idiots take the entire wrong definition of those and run it into the ground. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Doc Fury Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 172	Posted - 2012.01.11 22:02:00 - [30] - Quote Nova Fox wrote: Doc Fury wrote: Nova Fox wrote: Because thats over there is turned into dribbeling mess that is showing signs of spinning out of control for sillier reasons than the original argument. Also this is a discussion and secondly I am 800 characters over the limit and surprised it still displays dont have room to link it. Easy, delete everything and replace it with a 2 line summary and the link to the appropriate thread in the appropriate forum area asking people to go there and chime-in. If your other thread is getting trolled and etc, that's what the report link is for. Its not mine, and they're beginning ot argue conservative and progressive value/mentality, this would normally lead to a lock if idiots take the entire wrong definition of those and run it into the ground. And the OP is already a summary of the 6 pages so far, nothing really new was brought to the table in the 4 pages of banter so far. One guy is going so far as to imagine problems, which i find a bit insulting because I aint that stupid either. Not if when you report it you ask that the thread be cleaned. Anyone can do this whether they created the thread or not. It works. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Morganta Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia 793	Posted - 2012.01.11 22:19:00 - [31] - Quote Destination SkillQueue wrote: Abdiel Kavash wrote: Quote: Incidenary Mjonlir Nova Truama ...senseible post... Reason being that makes it seem like you're just a lazy ass dev who didn't bother to polish your game at all. I would agree, but imo its a little late to be thinking about that stuff I am not the type who likes the dumbing down of complex games, as the complexity and nearly infinite variety are often a welcome thing in some gaming circles (SWG and the NGE being a classic example of the backlash from over simplification) couldn't missiles keep their silly names and just make the search smarter instead of the content being made dumber? could the name just be the name and let the search focus on attributes (either existing or new) or a hidden data field that keeps a list of logical search terms if ($searchterm==thermal missiles) { display all missiles that do thermal damage } I really never quite understood how a massive db-centric game like eve can have such awful search abilities but I can't really say its limited to EVE either The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy
Micia Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan 14	Posted - 2012.01.12 00:43:00 - [32] - Quote Don't like this change. Frontier: Prelude To Darkness - An animated scifi web-series, featuring me! Watch it :) ...and coming soon, play Wing Commander Saga: Darkest Dawn. Also, with me. :)
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 2748	Posted - 2012.01.12 00:46:00 - [33] - Quote Morganta wrote: Destination SkillQueue wrote: Abdiel Kavash wrote: Quote: Incidenary Mjonlir Nova Truama ...senseible post... Reason being that makes it seem like you're just a lazy ass dev who didn't bother to polish your game at all. I would agree, but imo its a little late to be thinking about that stuff I am not the type who likes the dumbing down of complex games, as the complexity and nearly infinite variety are often a welcome thing in some gaming circles (SWG and the NGE being a classic example of the backlash from over simplification) couldn't missiles keep their silly names and just make the search smarter instead of the content being made dumber? could the name just be the name and let the search focus on attributes (either existing or new) or a hidden data field that keeps a list of logical search terms if ($searchterm==thermal missiles) { display all missiles that do thermal damage } I really never quite understood how a massive db-centric game like eve can have such awful search abilities but I can't really say its limited to EVE either I think it has to do with the bad children and bad parents in the database trees. I mean its the was the biggest thing causing the BPO/BPCs to look the same for the longest time. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Covert Kitty SRS Industries SRS. 136	Posted - 2012.01.12 01:07:00 - [34] - Quote I support the change, theres probably some who don't like to see change whatever form it takes. (There were those that didn't support the skill queue for example). However these things need polishing (as well as many other things in eve) and I applaud CCP for looking at it.

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