| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
   |
Posted - 2007.07.24 02:39:00 -
[1]
...a question, an argument, constructive criticism or even plain old "what if" ?
___
This IS "EVE General Discussion", right ?
The EVE forum attitude is a general EVE-related discussion, right ?
Well, I guess this is then the place for this question/argument then.
___
It almost seems to me like the majority of people frequenting the forums is becoming more and more jaded, almost too easily classifiable.
The sad part is that this vast majority appears to be no longer able to differentiate between different forms and values of disagreement, and even a minor issue brought forth is mostly encountered by pointless flamefests, let alone a more serious issue that would require any amount of change at all.
Sure, the forum does have its whiners, and I'll be the first to admit occasional culpability.
But what is a "whining" anyway ?
Straight out of the dictionary, the only appliable definition is "to complain or protest in a childish fashion".
Childish. Immature. Completely silly or irrational.
A child will not change its mind when faced with facts, it will simply complain about the same thing no matter how much you explain to him that whatever he's complaining about is absolutely normal.
There, THAT is a whine. To be honest, a whine in itself is not necessarily ALWAYS bad for the community. It usually is either bad or pointless, but not always. But I digress again.
Now, on the other side of the "negative" fence, you have the complainers. I'm usually with one foot in that boat myself.
The difference between a WHINER and a COMPLAINER is, well, the "childish" part.
Careful though, you really shouldn't confuse "stubborn" with "childish". There's a big difference. And that difference is that you can usually ARGUE with a stubborn person, and convince it to change its mind, if clear evidence against its initial position is brought forth.
Complainers incite argument, and arguments are GOOD, as long as they're on-topic, logical, and offensive language is kept within reasonable boundaries.
While the way in which the argument starts might be (and usually is) mistaken for a whine, and as such attracts a lot of flak, it is usually one of the only ways to GET a discution going, and as such, a necessary evil at times, especially lately, on these forums.
The neutral side, the conspiracy nuts and the disgruntled trolls are really not that relevant to this thread, so I'll just skip them. They're a part of every major forum, and their presence is... well, unavoidable. You can only be as polite as possible to the inquisitive neutrals, something good might come out of it. The conspiracy nuts, well, humour them if you like, but ignoring might be the better way to deal... which is actually one of the best ways to deal with trolls, ignoring them.
Now we get to the real part, the real problem, the issue that sparked the existence of this very thread.
The "yes persons" of EVE, the "everything is fine" alts, the nice and dandy "if you don't like all of it it means you hate it" bunch.
Well, hello, wait a minute there, buster.
Would a COMPLAINER not care about the game or just downright hate it, why would he bother posting anything at all in the first place ?
If somebody found something he thinks is unreasonable, why do you have to take a "no way" in your arms and never let it go ?
Do you REALLY think EVE is perfect ? Do you think you're doing ANYBODY a service by sweeping problems under the rug ?
If you want to add something, add it in a constructive manner.
Show the previous posters WHY they're wrong, or if they're soooo dead wrong "that everybody knows it", at least refer to the place where supposedly that issue was discussed already.
Also, why resist change for the sake of "not changing" ? The devs already change little enough as it is due to their limited time, why do YOU bother with what should not even be considered at all ?
Let THEM do it. You ? Just argue AGAINST it if you want.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 02:40:00 -
[2]
reserved
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 02:41:00 -
[3]
also reserved
SKUNK
 Originally by: Fink Angel
They acted like Mr. Creasote at the all you can eat buffet, and CCP provided the Wafer Theeen Mint.
|
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 02:41:00 -
[4]
you have SO many topics :P
I agree a lot of people just go blah whine when they read a suggestion. not to say 70% of posts aren't whine, but people should try to see the difference between a whine and being discontent with something in a mature way.
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP |
Jin Steele
Port Royal Independent Kontractors
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 02:44:00 -
[5]
This was a waste of a thread. No one who flames is gonna care what you have to say anyways, and the people who dont are more inclined too after seeing you whining. And yes, according to current forum "policies" this is a whine. You arent contributing anything useful to the game, and there are complaints, so it is a whine.
(not a flame)
_________________________________________________________
|
Vincenzo Delloro
Amarr
Lux et Veritas
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 02:48:00 -
[6]
Point taken, but the real reason people like me think it's silly to whine about issues with EVE so dramatically and so consistently is that when you get right down to it, it's a game where you fly spaceships on the Internet. There's no way complaining about that can be anything but childish to a certain degree.
Complaining that your internet spaceship game isn't as cool or as well-made as you want it to be on these forums is like complaining about the poor paint job on your My Little Pony in long, rambling emails to the receptionist's inbox at Hasbro. There's only so much serious, grownup concern you can invest into a topic like that before it becomes ridiculous.
If I was paying something other than chump change to CCP, if I was paying thousands of dollars a year on the game, I'd probably be more invested than I am. But for now it's a distraction for less than the price of a coffee a week.
Not directing this at you Akira, just illustrating that the opposing perspective isn't a result of irrational prejudice, just perspective.
|
SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 03:18:00 -
[7]
i would also like to reserve a spot
____ __ ________
_sig below_
devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 03:20:00 -
[8]
See second (edited) post.
Too me, as to (probably) many others, EVE might be "just a game" on some level, but somehow... it's "THE" game.
Everybody has a favorite hobby, and I don't need to tell you HOW serious most people take their favourite hobby.
As such, there's a great deal of similitude between the real world and EVE as a "favorite hobby".
And let's face it, if you're reading and posting in here, it's probably your favourite hobby too.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Vincenzo Delloro
Amarr
Lux et Veritas
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 03:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T
See second (edited) post.
Too me, as to (probably) many others, EVE might be "just a game" on some level, but somehow... it's "THE" game.
Everybody has a favorite hobby, and I don't need to tell you HOW serious most people take their favourite hobby.
As such, there's a great deal of similitude between the real world and EVE as a "favorite hobby".
And let's face it, if you're reading and posting in here, it's probably your favourite hobby too.
Actually, my favourite hobby is ****. But CCP doesn't seem to like me talking about my fondness for ****, as they prevent me from even writing the word "****" on their forums.
But yeah, internet spaceships are pretty cool. (Besides I'm at work and can't view **** websites.)
|
Slickdrac
Minmatar
Replicatorz
Adamant Domain
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 03:35:00 -
[10]
Regardless of how baseless or ridiculous someone's opinion is on something, I always give it a look on the occasions that I'm on the forums. However, I just ignore anyone who it just looks like spends 90% of their time posting, and maybe 10 minutes playing. Especially when they are just criticising something in every post they make, and never seem to make any kind of positive post.
If all you're gonna do it complain, stfu, quit, and give me your stuff. 
(note: not directed at any one person in particular)
------------------------
Everyone in this sig is awesome - Slickdrac |
|
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 04:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Slickdrac
(note: not directed at any one person in particular)
In spite of that "note" there I can't help but think it was still mainly directed towards me.
Just because "recently" I haven't been posting anything positive doesn't mean I never posted positive stuff. Heck, in the early "EVE days", I did make quite a bit of positive posts about the game itslef.
later, I made a lot of positive posts about several "Revelations 1.0" features, with the most positive post about the "new player experience" (not quite what I expected, probably a bit too good on the practical skills and not nearly enough on the support/learning side, but it WAS a huge step forward).
I even took CCP's side (quite vehemently actually) in the recent "corruption scandals", making quite a few "forum enemies" through that.
I fervently oppose suggestions directed at the core ideas of EVE, like for instance training speed boosts through "consumables" or repetitive action, or making EVE more "twitch based" rather than tactical, to name but a couple.
I frequently help people in "Ships and Modules" and "Skills" subforum (I used to do this ingame in public channels too, but nowadays I limit myself to the "corp and friendlies" channels), I wrote more than my fair share of guide or guide-like bits and pieces, I violently advocate the need for a better EVE documentation and so on and so forth.
Even right now, there's TWO open bugreports "attached to a defect" that the reply e-mail said "we were not aware of the problem". Also, a couple of bugs marked as "fixed" out of which AT LEAST ONE (maybe two, can't really recall) was also a "we were not aware of that issue".
So excuse me if I feel even the tiniest bit of offense when I see something like this (in the quote) posted.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Khanak Hryad
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 14:12:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Khanak Hryad on 03/08/2007 14:12:08
hmm...
reading this has made me think bout recent posts I have made, and its mostly towards new changes or suggestions that I happen to come across and feel like posting my opinion on... more often then not, they are stupid suggestions and changes, and so I'll flame it for a bit, then post my own suggestion/change in what I see as a better way. I have my own views and opinions, as does every player, and in this day and age, its much easier to put out criticism for a "stupid" idea than to commend a good one.
Those are my two cents....
(edited for spelling)
|
Jennai
The Silent Rage
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 14:13:00 -
[13]
you sure post a lot of crap threads
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 14:21:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jennai
you sure post a lot of crap threads
Why, tank you... I take that as a compliment 
_
Complaint vs whine | Char creation guide | Stacknerfs explained |
Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 14:23:00 -
[15]
You know, I was in the middle of making a post just like this. ><
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 14:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
You know, I was in the middle of making a post just like this. ><
Only 10 days late 
_
Complaint vs whine | Char creation guide | Stacknerfs explained |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 14:26:00 -
[17]
I fully support this post. It's important to understand the difference between a thread where the OP's has an objection to a feature or change, and lays those objections out in a thoughtful and non-hostile manner and replies constructively to criticisms. Unfortunately you don't find many of those. 
------------
ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION | Forum Whiners - Unite! |
Iyanah
Minmatar
Mining Munitions and Mayhem
R i s e
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 14:40:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Akita T
...a question, an argument, constructive criticism or even plain old "what if" ?
nope.
there's a difference??
just kidding. it does seem that alot of people's random musings or whacky ideas are considered to be "OMG RANT" or "WAH WAH I LOST MY SHIP, SOMETHING IS BROKEN!"
that said, there are ALOT of those kinds of posts, so the default response has become "omg, stop whining, noob". this gets liberally applied to threads of all nature, just to make sure that the real whines are caught.
==========================================
Iy
please remember: I AM a sarcastic ******* and nothing i say has ever represented the thoughts or feelings of my corp, alliance, or anyone really. read |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 12:26:00 -
[19]
Ah, you mean an inquisition-like method ?
"Burn/drown/kill the witch, if she doesn't die she's a witch, if she dies she's innocent" ? 
_
Complaint vs whine | Char creation guide | Stacknerfs explained |
Savvon
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 12:38:00 -
[20]
I would of taken this post more seriously if I didn't check on your post history just now.
Kind of makes your point invalid for me.
|
|
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 12:55:00 -
[21]
You do realize that "ad hominem" arguments like the one you just did are logical fallacies... do you ?
And besides, it's not the "post history" you checked, it's the counterpoint I made to your posts in other threads.
Yes, I realise the irony of combatting an "ad hominem" argument with another, but meh... such is life.
_
Complaint vs whine | Char creation guide | Stacknerfs explained |
Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 12:58:00 -
[22]
Careful Akita - Savvon has a nasty history of reporting people and whining that they should get banned when they talk to him. o.O
|
General Apocalypse
Amarr
The Merchant Marines
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 13:01:00 -
[23]
Ba frate da mult mai scrii 
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 13:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: General Apocalypse
Ba frate da mult mai scrii
Yeah, I do write a lot... you should see the corp mails and "public corp chat"
Originally by: Curzon Dax
Careful Akita - Savvon has a nasty history of reporting people and whining that they should get banned when they talk to him. o.O
_
Complaint vs whine | Char creation guide | Stacknerfs explained |
Don't Panic
Rest home for Tired Seadogs
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 13:24:00 -
[25]
Reserved.
|
dfbhetbher
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 21:10:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vincenzo Delloro
Point taken, but the real reason people like me think it's silly to whine about issues with EVE so dramatically and so consistently is that when you get right down to it, it's a game where you fly spaceships on the Internet. There's no way complaining about that can be anything but childish to a certain degree.
Complaining that your internet spaceship game isn't as cool or as well-made as you want it to be on these forums is like complaining about the poor paint job on your My Little Pony in long, rambling emails to the receptionist's inbox at Hasbro. There's only so much serious, grownup concern you can invest into a topic like that before it becomes ridiculous.
If I was paying something other than chump change to CCP, if I was paying thousands of dollars a year on the game, I'd probably be more invested than I am. But for now it's a distraction for less than the price of a coffee a week.
Not directing this at you Akira, just illustrating that the opposing perspective isn't a result of irrational prejudice, just perspective.
i'd just like to say that you seem to have a reinforced belief that many things are ridiculous. you have a finite amount of time in life, I assume, so any time spent means you lose that much time. why put time, and therefore your life, into something you aren't happy with? how to change that? suggestions, complaints, or whines. childish is the greatest word ever, it relegates logical and realistic discussion to name calling. in truth, since people seem to think life is so important, given that murder is an offense which is punishable, calling someone childish for wanting something more to their tastes for the short time they're alive seems to be exactly the sort of thing you're accusing them of. beware those who claim maturity as the reason why they dont need to listen or give understanding to others.
|
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 21:11:00 -
[27]
why did you bump this waste of bandwidth?
Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums:
Quote:
Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
|
Ten Bulls
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 21:13:00 -
[28]
"Do you people even KNOW the difference between a whine and a question, an argument, constructive criticism or even plain old "what if" ?"
A whine is when someone else says it.
|
000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 21:18:00 -
[29]
Wine is just grapejuice gone bad.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
|
dfbhetbher
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 21:22:00 -
[30]
because I dont look at the date of a seemingly relevant topic before I post. why should I? you simply want it to file to the back of the line to simply get replaced by 5 more threads just like it? thats efficient use of space, alright. yeaaah..
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |