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Gen Fesslenski
Knights of the Blackened Denarius
0
   |
Posted - 2012.01.11 05:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello, I'm about 3 weeks old and am pretty fed up with this game already. Thanks to joining an old real life friends fail corp and spending my last 3 weeks getting blown up by far superior ships and ship skills in high sec space, I went through 2 GTCs in ships and received no help at all.
The corp leader, who had been offline for 3 months had left a faction pos to the corp and every passing pirate wanted to take potshots at it, we (7) ended up getting wardecced by a griefer alliance when a spy infiltrated the corp, and I lost 1.1bn in a single day getting ganked while doing missions. (For anyone who asks how that was possible, I bought a navy scorpion after power leveling myslef to battleships I so i could join a corpmate in lvl4s and got ninja'd by the spy putting a covert ship in range of smartbombs whilst we were getting ninja salvaged, the ship had t2 rigs that my corp mate had fitted.)
Now to the point.
After being told that I could trust a certain friend of his in another corp, I was offered a ship for 2bn with rigs. A small (300m) saving. I had learned that its worthless to fly something you dont have the skills to do good dps in so it was going to sit in my hangar for a while but the offer was very good so I took it with the intention of making a frined in another corp. (it was a Bhaalgorn fully t2 fitted). After directing me to a bad site (SwagVault.com) to buy GTC as I had already bought the limit from my battleclinic, I found out it was a scam and told him. He went on about how desperate he was for the money so I found another place on google official list and bought more, and I waited for him in Jita. He threatened to have my account banned for buying from an illegal site if I didn't buy the ship and filed a petition against my char, so I gave him the 2bn and as I expected he never turned up, saying he filed me as an ISK spammer as well for giving him the money but as he has filed petitions against me in an attempt to extort my char I should be able to get it back right? |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
73
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 05:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Buying ISK directly is against the EULA and can result in action being taken against your account. Admitting to it on a public forum was, in fact, probably a bad idea (though he will probably also get in trouble).
The problem here was that you recklessly insisted on buying expensive ships and funding them with GTCs and, later, straight ISK buying.. |
Gen Fesslenski
Knights of the Blackened Denarius
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 05:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
I did not buy ISK. I bought GTC read it again.
EDIT: When I say I found out it was a scam I mean I did not recieve the GTC I bought. And I bought it for list price. $34.99 |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
195
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 05:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
No reason to post stories like this on the forums.
Petition is the only way to find out if CCP will do anything.
(On a sidenote, your post is full of "doing it wrong". Do not fly ships you cannot afford to replace through gameplay)
|
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
73
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 05:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gen Fesslenski wrote:I did not buy ISK. I bought GTC read it again.
EDIT: When I say I found out it was a scam I mean I did not recieve the GTC I bought. And I bought it for list price. $34.99
Ah.
anyway, did you -give- him the money? I'm guessing since this scam involved GTCs and whatnot (which is typically a nono) things will go in your favor, but I'm not sure. |
Nvermind
Nvermind Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 06:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yeah, don't throw ISK at ships and equipment you don't yet have the Skill Points to use.
Welcome to Eve :) |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
300
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 07:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sorry bud... but scamming isn't against the rules in EVE. Best advice I can give is:
- Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
- Don't trust someone you don't know.
- If it seems too good to be true... it's probably a trap.
- Bigger is not always better.
- If you can't fly/use it... don't buy it. Likewise, if you don't understand it... don't get involved unless you absolutely must (or are prepared to accept a large amount of "risk").
- Try to stay away from GTC/PLEX until you have a firm grasp of the game. Otherwise, you are spending more ISK than you need to in ventures you probably shouldn't be doing at your "level."
edit: also... EVE is more about your "journey" to the top... and there is no "end."
"Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one."
~Unknown |
malaire
180
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 07:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gen Fesslenski wrote:After being told that I could trust a certain friend of his in another corp, I was offered a ship for 2bn with rigs. A small (300m) saving. I had learned that its worthless to fly something you dont have the skills to do good dps in so it was going to sit in my hangar for a while but the offer was very good so I took it with the intention of making a frined in another corp. (it was a Bhaalgorn fully t2 fitted). After directing me to a bad site (SwagVault.com) to buy GTC as I had already bought the limit from my battleclinic, I found out it was a scam and told him.
If you gave money to some site who promised to give GTC in return, but gave nothing, I don't think CCP can do anything about that. If you paid with credit card you could try contacting credit card firm about fraudulent shop as you can do with any such shop.
That site is not even listed as official reseller.
Gen Fesslenski wrote:He went on about how desperate he was for the money so I found another place on google official list and bought more, and I waited for him in Jita. He threatened to have my account banned for buying from an illegal site if I didn't buy the ship and filed a petition against my char, so I gave him the 2bn and as I expected he never turned up, saying he filed me as an ISK spammer as well for giving him the money but as he has filed petitions against me in an attempt to extort my char I should be able to get it back right?
Filing petitions against your char, or reporting your char for ISK spamming, has no effect on you if you did nothing wrong. So you should've just ignored his empty threats.
I don't know if CCP would give you that ISK back, but in any case you should report him via petition and wait for CCP answer. (F12 > create new petition).
New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else |
malaire
180
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 07:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gen Fesslenski wrote:Hello, I'm about 3 weeks old and am pretty fed up with this game already. Thanks to joining an old real life friends fail corp ...
Don't blaim EVE for actions of your "friend". Every game has its share of bad/evil players, it's unfortunately your friend happened to be one of them (or at least it seems so according to your post.)
Gen Fesslenski wrote:The corp leader, who had been offline for 3 months had left a faction pos to the corp and every passing pirate wanted to take potshots at it, we (7) ended up getting wardecced by a griefer alliance when a spy infiltrated the corp, and I lost 1.1bn in a single day getting ganked while doing missions. (For anyone who asks how that was possible, I bought a navy scorpion after power leveling myslef to battleships I so i could join a corpmate in lvl4s and got ninja'd by the spy putting a covert ship in range of smartbombs whilst we were getting ninja salvaged, the ship had t2 rigs that my corp mate had fitted.)
I don't quite understand what really happened, but you shouldn't have used such an expensive ship when you still didn't understand game rules well enough and also couldn't afford to easily replace it.
Did wartarget kill you? In that case it was really your* fault since you were doing mission in expensive ship during war declaration. When war is declared you get warning 24 hours before fighting starts so you know to stop any such activities.
Did you hit neutral target with smarbomb so CONCORD killed you? Using smartbombs is risky in highsec, if you still want to use them you can only blaim yourself* for consequences.
*) or you can blaim your corp if they promised to teach you about EVE and did not do so.
In any way if you still want to give EVE a chance, you could try "starting from scratch" by distancing youself from your "friend" and his failcorp, and starting from ships you can afford to fly.
New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
129
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 08:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm afraid the IP address that website is on is a known RMT site.
Other websites using it are : worldofwarcraft-leveling.com; worldofwarcraft-powerleveling.com; swagvault.net
In fact when you look at swagvault.com its immediately clear that its a RMT site. There's no mention of GTCs and "Deliver by Contract in game. Please log in game to receive the Contract in 2 hours after you place the order." is crystal clear.
The OP is going to be banned and frankly its their own fault. |
malaire
180
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 08:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Othran wrote:I'm afraid the IP address that website is on is a known RMT site.
Other websites using it are : worldofwarcraft-leveling.com; worldofwarcraft-powerleveling.com; swagvault.net
In fact when you look at swagvault.com its immediately clear that its a RMT site. There's no mention of GTCs and "Deliver by Contract in game. Please log in game to receive the Contract in 2 hours after you place the order." is crystal clear.
The OP is going to be banned and frankly its their own fault.
CCP does not ban player for buying ISK, CCP just takes that ISK away (possibly causing wallet to go negative.) But since OP did not get any ISK, she might not get any consequences from this.
But yes, I just checked that site more closely and it is selling ISK not PLEX or GTC - and buying ISK with real money is against EULA.
New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
129
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 08:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
malaire wrote:Othran wrote:I'm afraid the IP address that website is on is a known RMT site.
Other websites using it are : worldofwarcraft-leveling.com; worldofwarcraft-powerleveling.com; swagvault.net
In fact when you look at swagvault.com its immediately clear that its a RMT site. There's no mention of GTCs and "Deliver by Contract in game. Please log in game to receive the Contract in 2 hours after you place the order." is crystal clear.
The OP is going to be banned and frankly its their own fault. CCP does not ban player for buying ISK, CCP just takes that ISK away (possibly causing wallet to go negative.) But since OP did not get any ISK, they might not get any consequences from this. But yes, I just checked that site more closely and it is selling ISK not PLEX or GTC - and buying ISK with real money is against EULA.
They ban you if its a repeat offence and its not at all clear to me where all the isk came from for the shiny stuff. There's more to this than we're being told.
Oh and the OP DID buy isk from there, they have admitted that. The OP claims to have not received it, but they've admitted buying ISK.
Edit - there's a reference to "powerlevelling" in the OPs post too. Another "service" that site offers. Only "powerlevelling" I see in Eve is ISK grinding, glad I'm not the GM dealing with this CF. |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
60
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 09:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jeez, ppl are stupid, Eve could be used by MENSA for measuring IQ but on the other hand OP clearly won't ever even apply for their tests :)
Why stay in corp that fails you? Why buy GTC on some shady websites when you have perfectly legal CCP page for it? Why buy expensive ships that you don't even have skills for? How can you let some d*bag to blackmail you with some sh*t if you can just ask on forums or directly submit a query to CCP for explanation?
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Captain Nathaniel Butler
The White Company
350
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 11:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Jeez, ppl are stupid, Eve could be used by MENSA for measuring IQ but on the other hand OP clearly won't ever even apply for their tests :)
Why stay in corp that fails you? Why buy GTC on some shady websites when you have perfectly legal CCP page for it? Why buy expensive ships that you don't even have skills for? How can you let some d*bag to blackmail you with some sh*t if you can just ask on forums or directly submit a query to CCP for explanation?
Gen Fesslenski wrote:Hello, I'm about 3 weeks old
Reading comprehension FTW 
Lady Spank for C&P moderator. |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
60
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 11:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Captain Nathaniel Butler wrote:Gen Fesslenski wrote:Hello, I'm about 3 weeks old Reading comprehension FTW
When I was 3 weeks old I knew enough to not to do all things OP did.
Information gathering FTW!
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Captain Nathaniel Butler
The White Company
350
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 12:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Captain Nathaniel Butler wrote:Gen Fesslenski wrote:Hello, I'm about 3 weeks old Reading comprehension FTW When I was 3 weeks old I knew enough to not to do all things OP did. Information gathering FTW!
Yaaay! for you - you simply rock!
However not every 3 week old is aware of all things EvE - perhaps it would serve you well to remember that.
Lady Spank for C&P moderator. |
Dheeradj Nurgle
Misfit Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 12:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Captain Nathaniel Butler wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Captain Nathaniel Butler wrote:Gen Fesslenski wrote:Hello, I'm about 3 weeks old Reading comprehension FTW When I was 3 weeks old I knew enough to not to do all things OP did. Information gathering FTW! Yaaay! for you - you simply rock! However not every 3 week old is aware of all things EvE - perhaps it would serve you well to remember that.
I just started to read the forums while waiting for the Tutorial skills to train. Small things go a long way.
EDIT; Grammer failure. |
Tribalic One
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 15:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gen Fesslenski wrote:Hello, I'm about 3 weeks old and am pretty fed up with this game already. Thanks to joining an old real life friends fail corp and spending my last 3 weeks getting blown up by far superior ships and ship skills in high sec space, I went through 2 GTCs in ships and received no help at all.
The corp leader, who had been offline for 3 months had left a faction pos to the corp and every passing pirate wanted to take potshots at it, we (7) ended up getting wardecced by a griefer alliance when a spy infiltrated the corp, and I lost 1.1bn in a single day getting ganked while doing missions. (For anyone who asks how that was possible, I bought a navy scorpion after power leveling myslef to battleships I so i could join a corpmate in lvl4s and got ninja'd by the spy putting a covert ship in range of smartbombs whilst we were getting ninja salvaged, the ship had t2 rigs that my corp mate had fitted.)
Now to the point.
After being told that I could trust a certain friend of his in another corp, I was offered a ship for 2bn with rigs. A small (300m) saving. I had learned that its worthless to fly something you dont have the skills to do good dps in so it was going to sit in my hangar for a while but the offer was very good so I took it with the intention of making a frined in another corp. (it was a Bhaalgorn fully t2 fitted). After directing me to a bad site (Removed the name of a EULA-violating site. Spitfire) to buy GTC as I had already bought the limit from my battleclinic, I found out it was a scam and told him. He went on about how desperate he was for the money so I found another place on google official list and bought more, and I waited for him in Jita. He threatened to have my account banned for buying from an illegal site if I didn't buy the ship and filed a petition against my char, so I gave him the 2bn and as I expected he never turned up, saying he filed me as an ISK spammer as well for giving him the money but as he has filed petitions against me in an attempt to extort my char I should be able to get it back right?
Confirming OP is member of fail corp and war dec'd by griefer alliance  Can not confirm or deny possible spais...
It was fun incaping your POS defenses last night though 
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
228
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 15:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'm getting the distinct impression that the OP is a stupid person who makes bad descisions and gets screwed over because of his own idiocy pretty much constantly. |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
61
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 16:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Captain Nathaniel Butler wrote:However not every 3 week old is aware of all things EvE - perhaps it would serve you well to remember that.
Well, yes we should nurture every dumba*s too lazy to do a little reading before blitzing his credit card for a tengu with spinners or sth else from hidden market part called "instant win".
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Orlacc
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 16:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
You hang out with tools and it's the game's fault? |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
118
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 16:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lesson 1.) Most activities in EvE are centered around risks. Those risks materialized in lost assets, lost isk, lost time, and in your case.... lost money!
Lesson 2.) Area of effect lesson are an easy way to get concorded in hi-sec.
Lesson 3.) Bigger is not better. A BS can be killed by a frigate. And if you don't have the skills to really fly the BS, this is even more-so.
Welcome to EvE. Sorry the lessons were so rough!
|
Velicitia
Open Designs
444
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
OP, If I'm understanding you correctly, it was your FRIEND who sent you to the RMT site (the one they scrubbed out of your post)? You would do well to distance yourself from them... CCP does not take kindly to RMT ...
As for the other things, they've all been said (bigger is not necessarily better, smartbombs in hisec are you asking for trouble, etc) |
BuzzyBeagle
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
74
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 18:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
OP, as previously discussed, send me 2 Billion ISK [IN PLEX only not ISK] and i will make all of your problems go away |
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 07:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Captain Nathaniel Butler wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Captain Nathaniel Butler wrote:Gen Fesslenski wrote:Hello, I'm about 3 weeks old Reading comprehension FTW When I was 3 weeks old I knew enough to not to do all things OP did. Information gathering FTW! Yaaay! for you - you simply rock! However not every 3 week old is aware of all things EvE - perhaps it would serve you well to remember that.
It doesn't take a great deal of knowledge of EvE, or any other mmo, to know that maxing out your CC to buy game currency for a game you know nothing about is stupid. Even more so in a game where you can lose anything and everything.
"Absolutely no jabs or fast punches of any kind. Jabbers can not be on our team." |
Hijeri
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
65
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 09:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is ******* hilarious.
OP, you are ******** and deserve everything that happened to you. |
J'Poll
Pioneer's of the Galantic Wars
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
76
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 10:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Gen Fesslenski wrote:Hello, I'm about 3 weeks old and am pretty fed up with this game already. Thanks to joining an old real life friends fail corp and spending my last 3 weeks getting blown up by far superior ships and ship skills in high sec space, I went through 2 GTCs in ships and received no help at all.
The corp leader, who had been offline for 3 months had left a faction pos to the corp and every passing pirate wanted to take potshots at it, we (7) ended up getting wardecced by a griefer alliance when a spy infiltrated the corp, and I lost 1.1bn in a single day getting ganked while doing missions. (For anyone who asks how that was possible, I bought a navy scorpion after power leveling myslef to battleships I so i could join a corpmate in lvl4s and got ninja'd by the spy putting a covert ship in range of smartbombs whilst we were getting ninja salvaged, the ship had t2 rigs that my corp mate had fitted.)
Now to the point.
After being told that I could trust a certain friend of his in another corp, I was offered a ship for 2bn with rigs. A small (300m) saving. I had learned that its worthless to fly something you dont have the skills to do good dps in so it was going to sit in my hangar for a while but the offer was very good so I took it with the intention of making a frined in another corp. (it was a Bhaalgorn fully t2 fitted). After directing me to a bad site (Removed the name of a EULA-violating site. Spitfire) to buy GTC as I had already bought the limit from my battleclinic, I found out it was a scam and told him. He went on about how desperate he was for the money so I found another place on google official list and bought more, and I waited for him in Jita. He threatened to have my account banned for buying from an illegal site if I didn't buy the ship and filed a petition against my char, so I gave him the 2bn and as I expected he never turned up, saying he filed me as an ISK spammer as well for giving him the money but as he has filed petitions against me in an attempt to extort my char I should be able to get it back right?
First of all: Don't blame a game for personal mistakes you made.
And if you went through 2 GTC (approx 1.8bil ISK) worth of ships in your first 3 weeks you are definately doing something wrong.
I see 3 mistakes for a start:
1.) You rushed into a ship, which means you don't have the required skills to properly fly a ship (Sitting in a ship doesn't mean you can actually fly it properly)
2.) You think that bigger is better. In EVE this is totally the other way around. Why would you fly a faction scorp when you are teaming up in lvl 4's, if you do it with multiple people 1 guy in a raven/tengu is enough, you should have flown in a BC which is more then enough if you guys manage to distribute the aggro properly. And why for god sake did you use T2 rigs when T1 are more then enough to do lvl 4 missions (for a referance, I can do lvl 4's in my Drake (Battlecruiser), some may be hard to complete and need a couple of quick emergency warps to complete them)
3.) You were doing missions while you have an active war and even more when one if those war targets was in local. Also Smartbombs in high-sec are just plain stupid to use when you don't know to use them properly.
Conclusion: It's not the game that is broken or stupid, it's YOU. You spent loads of money on a ship a 3 week old toons shouldn't be flying and then you cry when you lost it (Eve rule number 1: Don't fly what you can't afford to loose / replace).
(again a referance, my one month old alt character is currently flying cruisers as it can't and shouldn't be in anything higher with the level of skills it has)
In general rule number 1 means you should at least have a wallet that is high enough to replace the ship you are flying and if possible even twice. Also powerleveling in EVE doesn't exist, skills to fly a ship properly (Ship skills, fitting skills, support skills etc) come with time and can't and shouldn't be rushed.
EVE rule number 2: Don't trust anyone who you can't kick in the ball in real life (aka know in real life).
EvE rule number 3: If it sounds to good to be true, IT IS
So far you have neglected to follow the 3 most basic rules of EVE.
On your side an inactive corp doesn't particularly help you to get used to EVE Online, but on the other hand, why stick with such corp. There are hundreds of corps you can join.
On RMT, entirely your own mistake. EULA states that buying ISK using RL money is prohibited and will result in CCP taken the same amount of ISK bought from your wallet even if it's not there anymore or it can even result in a ban. Should have read the EULA before accepting it (I'm seeing a nice link to the South Park episode of Apple User agreements).
If you want to learn EVE Online:
Take it 1 step at the time, start small, when you can fly frigates properly, move to cruisers, when you can use those properly, battlecruisers are the next step, etc etc.
And be open help, asking help isn't a sign of failure. Loads of other 3 week old toons like the game mainly as they are not stupid deucebags and they ask how to play EVE like a new player should. If they have questions, they ask them (Rookie Help, Help or Corp chat) and they will be answered by people who know the answer.
Also cut all ties with that 'friend' you had that got you into this trouble as for what I can see he is one of the main reasons you are in this situation.
TL-DR: The game isn't broken, the game isn't stupid. The OP is just a ****** and blaming others for mistakes he made. If you leave, bye bye and good luck in the rollercoaster MMO Blizzard made. Hope they will hold your hand and stop you from being a ****** who makes one mistake after the other.
J'Poll
Recruiter - Imperial Legi0n
As a finishing touch, God created the Dutch |
Baneken
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric
The Polaris Syndicate
69
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 18:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'd trash you RL buddy, if i were you, for being such an a-hole towards you but thats just me.  |
Gen Fesslenski
Knights of the Blackened Denarius
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 21:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
malaire wrote:Othran wrote:I'm afraid the IP address that website is on is a known RMT site.
Other websites using it are : worldofwarcraft-leveling.com; worldofwarcraft-powerleveling.com; swagvault.net
In fact when you look at swagvault.com its immediately clear that its a RMT site. There's no mention of GTCs and "Deliver by Contract in game. Please log in game to receive the Contract in 2 hours after you place the order." is crystal clear.
The OP is going to be banned and frankly its their own fault. CCP does not ban player for buying ISK, CCP just takes that ISK away (possibly causing wallet to go negative.) But since OP did not get any ISK, she might not get any consequences from this. But yes, I just checked that site more closely and it is selling ISK not PLEX or GTC - and buying ISK with real money is against EULA.
http://www.swagvault.com/eve/gamecard/904/1931
THat was the exact page I was directed to, becaue it only shows GTC I assumed it would be fine.Yeah,it was dumb but I was naive in thinking that CCP would have pursued anyone that advertised to sell their 'secure' stuff. |
Gen Fesslenski
Knights of the Blackened Denarius
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 21:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Double post |
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