| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Cordella Crystalis
   |
Posted - 2007.07.28 14:26:00 -
[1]
I've been seeing a lot of auctions with lets say starting bid of 1 isk, reserve of 5 and buy out of 10isk.
What's the point of starting out at 1 if you're not going to sell for any less then 5, might as well start at 5 and save people time no?
/boggles
|
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 14:37:00 -
[2]
well, those who do it claim they do it to get people interested first so they get to know the auction details - so they can spam their bid before they have to "get real"
but in truth, frequent forum browsers don't fall for that and it has the opposite effect. even more so with hidden reserves which is basically an open bull****ting decleration - and/or the lame way of aiming for all the advantages of an auction without the risks (i.e. chickening out of the responsibility of a cheap low winning bid) - probably 3/4 of the regular shoppers don't even consider these auctions anymore
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Wylker
Caldari
Pyrrhus Sicarii
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 15:29:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Roemy Schneider
well, those who do it claim they do it to get people interested first so they get to know the auction details - so they can spam their bid before they have to "get real"
but in truth, frequent forum browsers don't fall for that and it has the opposite effect. even more so with hidden reserves which is basically an open bull****ting decleration - and/or the lame way of aiming for all the advantages of an auction without the risks (i.e. chickening out of the responsibility of a cheap low winning bid) - probably 3/4 of the regular shoppers don't even consider these auctions anymore
Not to flame, but your post is ridiculous. Every normal auction on the planet has a reserve bid, unless otherwise stated. All the reserve states is that the seller has the option to not sell below that price. They can still decide to go ahead and take an offer even if it is below the reserve. What a reserve does is allow the seller to be protected against an auction that doesn't draw a lot of interest.
In all reality, auctions should simply not show what the reserve price is, they just just say if it has been met or not. The problem is that evidently 99.5% of the eve-o community has no idea how to use a reserve or in general how to structure their auctions.
Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Sales
Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Discussion
|
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 16:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Wylker
Not to flame, but your post is ridiculous. Every normal auction on the planet has a reserve bid, unless otherwise stated. All the reserve states is that the seller has the option to not sell below that price. They can still decide to go ahead and take an offer even if it is below the reserve. What a reserve does is allow the seller to be protected against an auction that doesn't draw a lot of interest.
In all reality, auctions should simply not show what the reserve price is, they just just say if it has been met or not. The problem is that evidently 99.5% of the eve-o community has no idea how to use a reserve or in general how to structure their auctions.
Your post started out so niceley, and it did explain EXACTLY why the reserve exists in the first place. However, second part, about not using reserve properly - well, in EVE there is very little oversight, or trust, for that matter.
As such, when a seller shows the reserve in their auction it is to figurativley "place all their cards on the table", and to show that they have nothng to hide.
If reserve stays hidden, on EVE-O forums, (we are not using RL analogies here), then it creates an appearance of impropriety, as if the seller is trying to obfuscate the final price, and in some way protect themsleves above and beyond any reasonable measure.
That is why it is important, for any self-respecting auctioneer on EVE-O forums to show his reserve from the start, he always has an option to sell it for less, but having an open reserve shows a degree of trust, and says: "I have nothing to hide, and if you reach that price, you will get the item."
Hidden Reserves Suck. I avoid auctions with hidden reserves because I think the seller is trying to pull a "fast one" and I do not like knowing what am I getting into.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 17:15:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Hidden Reserves Suck. I avoid auctions with hidden reserves because I think the seller is trying to pull a "fast one" and I do not like knowing what am I getting into.
I agree with this statement in general however I've advised people in the past to use a hidden reserve. Mostly because some items it is hard to know what a good hard value really is and the inexperience of the person doing the sale. By hiding the reserve the person has the ability to accept a price lower than they expected without accidentally looking like a complete whanker with an overblown public reserve A hidden reserve is not just a "fast one" tool but a hedge where nerves can be a bit shakey.
Quote:
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Fury Banker
Fury Bank
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 17:29:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Hidden Reserves Suck. I avoid auctions with hidden reserves because I think the seller is trying to pull a "fast one" and I do not like knowing what am I getting into.
I agree with this statement in general however I've advised people in the past to use a hidden reserve. Mostly because some items it is hard to know what a good hard value really is and the inexperience of the person doing the sale. By hiding the reserve the person has the ability to accept a price lower than they expected without accidentally looking like a complete whanker with an overblown public reserve A hidden reserve is not just a "fast one" tool but a hedge where nerves can be a bit shakey.
Like an earlier poster I totally avoid auctions with hidden reserves - same as I avoid ones where they take ingame bids (ingame buyouts I'm fine with).
Whilst your justification makes sense, there's no real need to use dubious hidden reserves if you're unsure of the price. A longer auction and a decent length sniper period provides pretty much the same protection. Some people just won't bid on auctions with hidden reserves - so you're unlikley to achieve higher bids by employing one.
The main use I see made of hidden reserves is so that when bids dry up, the seller can announce that "we're nearly at the reserve" to try to get a bit more out of the current high-bidder. This tactic rarely seems to work - and I've seen the high bidder cancel their bid at this stage before.
If someone genuinely doesn't know the value of something, but wants to get "market value" for it, then a hidden reserve is less likely to ensure this than would setting, say, a 12 hour sniper period.
Similarly, setting a reserve way above starting bid when you'll most likely settle for below the reserve can back-fire. If I see an auction for an item but the reserve is above what I'll pay then I'm NOT going to put in lower bids (not if it's a busines-related investment - I might if it's some faction module I want but aren't in a rush for). No way I'll keep liquid funds available to cover a bid on something where the seller has made it explicit that they most likely won't sell to me at that price even if I win.
Comparisons to RL auctions are flawed in two respects:
1. The time-scale. If I bid at an RL auction then my cash is only "tied up" for a matter of minutes - not for days/weeks as is the case in Eve forum auctions.
2. In RL the seller is NOT the auctioneer. So a (theoretically) independent person has knowledge of - and enforces - the hidden reserve. On Eve forums the auctioneer IS the seller - so noone has any reason to believe that they actually HAVE a set hidden reserve. IF they actually DID have a set figure in mind then their interests (other than the free bumps from bids below the reserve) would be better served by making it an open reserve.
|
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 18:12:00 -
[7]
well... i bid on stuff below minimum here if there's noone bidding. so there's no justification to invent this "reserve": the seller can still decide to contact me afterwards and we'll work something out. basically it's just a chicken-version of the minimum bid.
sry, i usually don't go all testosteron on these things, but a lil equality couldn't hurt: i'm supposed to be sure about the amount of money i bid - then the seller should at least try to be sure about his minimum bid aswell. (yes, i'm against bid retractions of any sort aswell)
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Cordella Crystalis
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 19:20:00 -
[8]
I guess I see the point of a reserve that's SHOWN so the seller can accept to sell for less then what he/she wanted originally if the interest is not there.
However, the majority seems to agree that hidden reserve are mostly there to milk and bilk money out of the current bidders.
|
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 21:07:00 -
[9]
If someone could lock in a hidden reserve somewhere so it couldn't change, but it was still hidden, then it would be perfectly fine. The problem is people say the reserve is hidden and then they randomly decide if they want to sell it for a certain price or not. They don't have a reserve in mind at auction creation time, which is the problem in my mind.
But there are two reasons for a reserve above the min bid:
1. Gets people to start bidding and once someone starts bidding they are invested in it and are more likely to keep bidding and keep watching the auction. The same reason political candidates want to get someone to donate to their campaign, even if it's only 5 bucks. That person will follow their campaign more heavily and will likely vote for them in the end because they have a stake in things.
2. If the bid does not reach the reserve but the person needs money fast/badly they can decide to sell it anyhow. Instead of having no bids they have some lower bids and can decide if they are willing to sell for that price.
I personally hate it when people withdraw bids. If you bid you should be locked in, period. I'd never run a single forum auction if the contract auctions weren't so incredibly lacking in functionality. If you could set min bid increments on contracts it would remove almost the entire need for the forum auctions. This would be great because then people couldn't withdraw their bids from your auction anymore.
It would be even better if you could browse contracts on the website as well. And bid on them/buy them from the website. This would drastically increase the popularity of contracts as people could browse them at work/when they are doing other things/etc.
To me, withdrawing a bid is one of the lamest things you can do... and I've seen more and more of it lately. The last few auctions I've bid in I've seen at least 10 people total withdraw bids. What the hell is up with that lately? If you really want something then bid, if you aren't sure then don't bid.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Danari
Amarr
Viper Squad
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.07.29 09:58:00 -
[10]
Reserves are so completely unnecessary I'm in the crowd that refuses to participate in auctions with them. They're completely unnecessary because if you don't like how an auction is going you can quite easily use a shill and bid it right to your reserve and either get your isk or bail from the auction. Yes I consider hidden reserves equally fraudulent to shill bids.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2007.07.30 11:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Danari
Yes I consider hidden reserves equally fraudulent to shill bids.
Gotta love them witch hunts. Far better to roast those people who are upfront about a situation, since you can find them, instead of the ones who sneak around and cheat you where you can never catch them. I've never used a hidden reserve nor have I ever set the minimum below it. I don't have time to waste with such things but I do understand that there are valid, and i opinionnvalid, reasons for them regardless of prevailing negatives. Take that for what's worth or not, I pretty much don't care.
Quote:
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Cookie
Snakeoil Industries Ltd.
|
Posted - 2007.07.30 12:28:00 -
[12]
if you would set the minimum bet above the reserve ... what would be the point of having a reserve at all ?
|
Sicil Fioet
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.07.30 13:24:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sicil Fioet on 30/07/2007 13:26:57
No use whatsoever.
Granted some people might think that low starting bid draws customers out to start bidding on the item and then when they see each other bidding (see the competition) they would be willing to pay up more. May be this is the case for rare and wanted items, but it is just a waste of everyone's time when another True Sansha or Shadow Serpentis Armor Kinetic Hardener gets listed with a hidden reserve on an auction.
Another point is for the seller to see who's interested and if the item does not sell, contact those people in game and try to work out a deal and appear as if he or she didn't really sell it way below own price. Then as one of the above posters noted a hidden reserve allows the seller to basically cancel the auction if they suspect they aren't getting enough for the items.
On the other hand, plenty of people get put off by auctions with hidden reserves. What's the point of bidding when the seller can just say "soz, the auction is canceled because you didn't bid enough"? And all that time you spent watching and checking it just went down the drain. People who respect their time appreciate being told for how much exactly you will sell your items right away, and not sit there and watch your auction go on for days. They might also lose interest since they aren't sure they'll be getting the item anyhow and keep looking in other places for it (unless the item is quite rare).
When the reserve isn't hidden I think it is just to check out who might be interested in buying whatever it is they are selling. You might want to do this if you aren't sure of the price for the item and afraid you set your reserve too high.
But with hidden reserves the effect goes both ways. I think most interesting and attractive property of item being sold is the price for which the seller is willing to let go of it. And if that figure isn't available I'll automatically give low priority to such auction to ever check it again. Seeing other people bid on it won't encourage me to spend my time trying to outbid them unless I know for sure I can get the item. But that's just me.
|
Robacz
Essence Trade
Essence Enterprises
|
Posted - 2007.07.30 14:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sicil Fioet
What's the point of bidding when the seller can just say "soz, the auction is canceled because you didn't bid enough"?
That is not problem of hidden reserve concept (which is used on all major auction sites includign eBay), that is problem of us/CCP running auctions on regular forums, therefore no one is bound to follow basic auction rules. In real auction, hidden reserve is set before auction begins and can't be changed.
_________
Always buying: pirate implants & high-end hardwirings
Tech2 distribution service: 8 regions covered |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises
Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.08.07 22:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Robacz
Originally by: Sicil Fioet
What's the point of bidding when the seller can just say "soz, the auction is canceled because you didn't bid enough"?
That is not problem of hidden reserve concept (which is used on all major auction sites includign eBay), that is problem of us/CCP running auctions on regular forums, therefore no one is bound to follow basic auction rules. In real auction, hidden reserve is set before auction begins and can't be changed.
pretty sure sicil was talking about the bids on eve-o only.
at any rate, hidden reserves don't really seem to be very attractive. if you're unsure of something's value, there's usually a channel or two ingame you could check, crossreference previous sales, etc.
if you can't be assed to do a little homework on an item you think is worth tons... |
Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.07 22:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cordella Crystalis
I've been seeing a lot of auctions with lets say starting bid of 1 isk, reserve of 5 and buy out of 10isk.
What's the point of starting out at 1 if you're not going to sell for any less then 5, might as well start at 5 and save people time no?
/boggles
Because the buyer knows that if he isn't willing to dish out 5 ISK, the seller won't sell him the item.
Hidden reserve's and BO's are annoying tbh.
They mean "just bid away and i'll see if i consider selling" so no real comitment from the seller.
Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ. |
Macon Squaredealer
Squaredeal Enterprises
|
Posted - 2007.08.08 14:55:00 -
[17]
It isn't very difficult to identify which sellers are serious and which aren't. Sometimes it's because they aren't confident in it's value, but most often it's nothing more than an attempt to get more than it's worth. Warning signs I look for:
* Sloppy, thrown together forum post missing info that you know the bidders are going to want to know such as ME, PE, end date, etc.
* Hidden reserve. They have the right to do them, and I have the right to ignore the auction (which I do).
* Stuipdly high starting bid required but "no reserve!" This can actually be an auction or a Want To Sell. This approach translates into "if anybody is stupid enough to pay double what the item is worth go ahead, otherwise just start bidding at whatever you like and if it goes high enough I might sell". Again, I won't play that game.
* Low starting bid with either a hidden reserve or a stupidly high shown reserve. This is a hybred of the two previous fishing expeditions of a not serious seller who rationalizes his approach by saying it creates interest in his auction. It doesn't matter a bit that the starting bid is 1 isk if the reserve is hidden or stupidly high.
* In-game bids allowed. If you want in game bids put the thing up on an in-game auction or for sale contract and use the forum to advertise it's availability in-game.
___________________________________________
Watch for the Squaredeal Enterprises IPO in the coming months. |
Fury Banker
Fury Bank
|
Posted - 2007.08.08 15:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Macon Squaredealer
* Hidden reserve. They have the right to do them, and I have the right to ignore the auction (which I do).
I also take the view that if they're not committing to selling the item then any bid I make isn't committing to buying it. I'd have no scruples about bidding on a hidden-reserve item then cancelling my bids if something else came along (unless the seller had announced the reserve had been met). Maybe if a bunch of us started making "provisional" bids on items with hidden reserves (where we'd decide at the end of the auction if we wanted to pay it or not) the message might get through :)
|
Danari
Amarr
Viper Squad
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.08.12 11:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Fury Banker
I also take the view that if they're not committing to selling the item then any bid I make isn't committing to buying it. I'd have no scruples about bidding on a hidden-reserve item then cancelling my bids if something else came along (unless the seller had announced the reserve had been met). Maybe if a bunch of us started making "provisional" bids on items with hidden reserves (where we'd decide at the end of the auction if we wanted to pay it or not) the message might get through :)
lol this answer wins
|
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2007.08.12 16:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Danari
Originally by: Fury Banker
I also take the view that if they're not committing to selling the item then any bid I make isn't committing to buying it. I'd have no scruples about bidding on a hidden-reserve item then cancelling my bids if something else came along (unless the seller had announced the reserve had been met). Maybe if a bunch of us started making "provisional" bids on items with hidden reserves (where we'd decide at the end of the auction if we wanted to pay it or not) the message might get through :)
lol this answer wins
Indeed
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |