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Blake Walan
The Resident Haunting Important Internet Spaceship League
5
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have decided to train for a carrier, and doing so will pick up blops and possibly marauder as well. I understand each is good for their job, my question is: when you take all three ships into account, which race shines. I live in null and explore/ wh if that helps. The marauder will be used for 10/10 sites, the blops is obvious, and the carrier will be used where ever it shines. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
303
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Amarr. "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Blake Walan
The Resident Haunting Important Internet Spaceship League
5
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Please also provide a brief explanation with concepts and/or fits. |
Luba Cibre
26
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
You go for the amarr carrier because of armor supremacy and because of that, you gonna get amarr blops and marauders. If you wanna rat in that carrier (>ishygddt) you gonna get the thanatos and gallente blops and marauders.
simple as that.
edit: if you can't fit these things without help, you really shouldn't get one. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
136
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Posted - 2012.01.12 04:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Amarr have the most popular pvp carrier (triage or pantheon) and the best BO's (most lows for cargo expanders!). On the marauder side of things, it's a little less impressive. They are pretty solid for lvl4's but lack the local tank needed to run high end pve content solo. You really want a golem or vargur for that as their active tanking ability is far greater. If local tank isn't overly important for whatever reason, the paladin puts out very solid dps at good range. Really can't complain about it's firepower, it's generally superior to the vargur due to optimal vs falloff. Certainly easier getting ammo too, 100k rounds of barrage is kinda big.
Gallente have the best pve carrier as it's the only one with a dps bonus. From a pvp standpoint, the ability to rep both armor and shields is pretty handy. It may not be as tough as an archon but it has the ability to keep both armor and shield ships alive without refitting. That's pretty handy when you get right down to it. The sin is probably the worst BO's in direct combat. I have no comment on the kronos in pve.
Minmatar have the best triage carrier imho but I am in a minority on that opinion. It is 25% squishier than an archon but it RR's 25% better in exchange. And a triage carrier's survival is based almost exclusively on the survival of the subcaps it is repping. It has basically the same tank as a thanny given it has the same slot layout. The panther is a mediocre gunboat slightly inferior to a hurricane but it does have enough lows to fit a fair number of cargo expanders for fuel. The vargur tanks like a boss for pve, can solo almost any pve content including lvl5's.
Caldari have the worst carrier for everything. The bonuses are fine for shield fleets, the trouble is it's a solid 25% too short on CPU. It simply cannot be fit for triage due to CPU restrictions. Never heard of a shield pantheon fleet and I have no clue as to if it can be fit like that, I suspect no however. The widow is probably the most useful BO's in direct combat since it's a super sized rook. The golem has the same tank as a vargur for pve, should be able to solo just about anything you throw at it. |
Aamrr
210
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Posted - 2012.01.12 09:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Minmatar have the best triage carrier imho but I am in a minority on that opinion. It is 25% squishier than an archon but it RR's 25% better in exchange. And a triage carrier's survival is based almost exclusively on the survival of the subcaps it is repping. It has basically the same tank as a thanny given it has the same slot layout.
Not...exactly. A 25% resist bonus actually corresponds to a 33% increase in anything related to your hit points. EHP, local tank, remote tank all benefit from this 1/3 improvement. By contrast, a 25% remote repair bonus gives exactly 25% more. This is essentially the reason the Nidhoggur's RR-bonus was increased to 7.5% per level. I mention this mostly because you cited the Nidhoggur's old ship bonus.
The recent buff mostly addressed this concern, and as you stated it comes down to whether you're prioritizing the survival of the capital or the subcaps. However, I would like to point out that most subcaps will have better resists than the Nidhoggur repping them, if only because they'll have more slots to fit resist modules. Amarrian ships may even have a resist bonus on top of it. Local reps are also less capacitor efficient than remote, and the triage carrier isn't exactly going to be getting any damage reduction from speed or signature radius...
The next difference is slot configuration. An Archon has an extra low slot at the cost of a midslot. For triage, this basically means trading a Capacitor Power Relay for a Cap Recharger. The former gives a 24% bonus, while the latter gives only a 20% bonus. This ultimately means that an Archon will have 5.3% more capacitor per second. Not a huge gain, but certainly worth noting when people shell out 130 million isk to get the same effect from an implant.
Next, there's the matter of fitting constraints. If you want to bring an armor tanked carrier to assist armor-fitted subcaps, the Archon can bring two local reps and three remote reps. While you're certainly not going to be running all of them full out, the additional rep lets you more quickly respond to target switches -- you can throw a rep on a target who needs it even while your other two are finishing their cycle. If a Nidhoggur tried to do this, it would need almost 6.5% more powergrid, even before fitting the last high slot.
Speaking of high slots, the Archon fits an energy transfer. That energy transfer lets triage pairs and triads exchange capacitor to prepare for a triage cycle. It lets them assist subcaps when they're being neuted or need to neut (Bhaalgorns). And they get a range bonus to it, allowing those subcaps a degree of mobility to do their job that the Nidhoggur simply can't, even if it did have the powergrid to fit it. Capacitor warfare is a huge part of capital warfare. The energy transfer gives the Archon and Chimera a measure of defense.
And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers.
And finally, we get to EHP. The Archon gets more armor, so it gets more benefit from its hardeners. With two faction EANMs fitted, the Archon gets 230k more EHP. Swapping one of those for a damage control, that increases to 244k. That may not seem like a lot in the scale of capital warfare, but it's another 800 DPS the enemy has to deal over that 5 minute period. |
Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
120
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Posted - 2012.01.12 10:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers.
Identical base capacitor regen means they gain the same cap/sec as well regardless of capacitor size. The one factor that counts here is how many slots they can devote to CPR's over Cap Rechargers.
In other words, a Niddy with 4x CPR gains the same cap/sec as an Archon with 4x CPR. |
Mumtaz Khan
Nagrom Security Syndicate Flatline.
27
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Posted - 2012.01.12 10:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Amarr. Always Amarr. Unless you plan on using the carrier for WHs, the Archon is always the preferred capital. The Redeemer is also the best Black Ops because its bonuses are actually useful (should you actually decide to engage with it). Gallente would be my second choice, as people are usually pretty satisfied with having a Thanatos if there's not an Archon available. The obvious benefit of going Gallente is that you get the most use out of your drone skills with both the Thanatos and the Sin.
The Nidhoggur is an underestimated and versatile carrier, but I don't have enough good things to say about the Minmatar or Caldari carriers or black ops to make an argument about. Golem and Vargur have their merits if carebearing's your thing. |
Aamrr
210
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 12:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Aamrr wrote:And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers. Identical base capacitor regen means they gain the same cap/sec as well regardless of capacitor size. The one factor that counts here is how many slots they can devote to CPR's over Cap Rechargers. In other words, a Niddy with 4x CPR gains the same cap/sec as an Archon with 4x CPR.
Congratulations, you've completely missed the point. The idea here was that while their sustained capacitor generation is identical, if they're forced to burn through their capacitor faster than it can regenerate, the Archon has a larger buffer to draw upon. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for about 41 GJ/s more. |
Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
120
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 12:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Aamrr wrote:And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers. Identical base capacitor regen means they gain the same cap/sec as well regardless of capacitor size. The one factor that counts here is how many slots they can devote to CPR's over Cap Rechargers. In other words, a Niddy with 4x CPR gains the same cap/sec as an Archon with 4x CPR. Congratulations, you've completely missed the point. The idea here was that while their sustained capacitor generation is identical, if they're forced to burn through their capacitor faster than it can regenerate, the Archon has a larger buffer to draw upon. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for about 41 GJ/s more.
Right. It is bad practice to explain a fixed cap bonus with a cap/sec number though so I blame that on the misconception. |
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Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
58
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Posted - 2012.01.12 14:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Archon for carrier, hands down. You have the best capacitor (both in regen and buffer), the best resists, and the fitting to use them effectively for both triage and Pantheon work.
As to Black Ops: Redeemer is a solid starting point; from there, you can crosstrain to the Widow and Panther, which will allow you to fill in wherever needed in a Black Ops based gang.
Marauder: much more situational.
The Paladin excels against Rogue Drones, but those are crap anyway; it can tank/spank most L4s with ease (but not Angel/Minmatar missions!) though, but will struggle with PvE that requires high burst tanks (such as L5s or nullsec anom/DED complex tanking). Fit Mega Pulse or Mega Beam to it: tachyon Pallys are VERY tight on PG and have cap issues as well.
The Golem has excellent burst tanking ability and can be used for all L4 content, unlike the Pally or Kronos. Its poor sensor strength means it is a poor choice for high-end anti-Gurista work though. (You will have serious trouble with jamming.) You will need to learn how to use your painters effectively to get full effect from your torpedoes; this represents the major learning curve with the Golem actually.
The Kronos is a rather unremarkable Marauder, but can be good against Serpentis rats. Again, the lack of changeable damage types means that Angel/Minmatar PvE is going to be troublesome, and blaster fits tend to put a lot of stress on their capacitor due to the need to run a propmod to get in range of long-range rats such as Guristas, Sanshas, and some Serps. (Rail fits tend to have tracking troubles unless you can get overheated webs out to about 20km or so, which is doable with a faction web + skirmish link boosting.)
The Vargur hands-down is the most versatile Marauder. It combines the burst-tanking ability and switchable damage of the Golem with a massive falloff bonus to autocannons, allowing it to hit fast, close-in rats such as Angels without losing its ability to engage say Sanshas or long-range Serpentis rats. Again, Gurista jamming is a problem; Marauders are generally not used against Guristas for that reason.
So, a guide by rat type: Rogue Drone: Paladin, hands down. Blood: any of the four. Plain ol' Sansha: Paladin, Kronos, and to some extent the Vargur. Golem may (will?) have range issues in this case. Merc: any of the four (Golem wins here, though) EoM: any of the four. Serpentis: Golem, Kronos, Vargur. (Paladins are strained enough on cap without running a propmod to get in range when damped!) Guristas: Don't bother with a Marauder here. Tengu beats them all hands down due to the ability to achieve >50 sensor strength wtih ease. Angels: Vargur, Golem, Kronos. (Lasers are generally a poor choice against Angels.)
Finally, if you decide to take your Marauder outside the traditional PvE realm: Sleepers: Paladin, rail Kronos, Vargur. Golem will have range issues with some Sleeper BS. Incursion Sanshas: Vargur, Paladin, Kronos. Golem has serious range + some application problems, depending on the site. |
IGNATIUS HOOD
Zephyr Corp
258
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 16:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Amarr.
A. Armor tanking awesomeness unbound. B. Paladin 4 100% bonused lasers, 2 Salvagers, 2 TBeams = fast missioning/salvaging. C. Reedemers can bit fit to be death to ~anything~ smaller than a BS. D. Archon is IMO the best triage carrier hands down. E. Becuase I said so!
'perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim'
Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you. |
Aamrr
210
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 17:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Aamrr wrote:Congratulations, you've completely missed the point. The idea here was that while their sustained capacitor generation is identical, if they're forced to burn through their capacitor faster than it can regenerate, the Archon has a larger buffer to draw upon. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for about 41 GJ/s more. Right. It is bad practice to explain a fixed cap bonus with a cap/sec number though so I blame that on the misconception. And when I'm trying to express the value of a fixed amount of capacitor over a specified period, what units would you suggest I use? Capacitor...per...time...
I even went so far as to explain where the calculation came from. Your misunderstanding is no fault but your own. |
snake03
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 22:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mumtaz Khan wrote:Amarr. Always Amarr. Unless you plan on using the carrier for WHs, the Archon is always the preferred capital. The Redeemer is also the best Black Ops because its bonuses are actually useful (should you actually decide to engage with it). Gallente would be my second choice, as people are usually pretty satisfied with having a Thanatos if there's not an Archon available. The obvious benefit of going Gallente is that you get the most use out of your drone skills with both the Thanatos and the Sin.
The Nidhoggur is an underestimated and versatile carrier, but I don't have enough good things to say about the Minmatar or Caldari carriers or black ops to make an argument about. Golem and Vargur have their merits if carebearing's your thing.
Your saying that the 30% ECM jammer strength per level of the Widow is'nt useful? I'm just a modern day caveman in search of a bigger club. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 22:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:King Rothgar wrote:Minmatar have the best triage carrier imho but I am in a minority on that opinion. It is 25% squishier than an archon but it RR's 25% better in exchange. And a triage carrier's survival is based almost exclusively on the survival of the subcaps it is repping. It has basically the same tank as a thanny given it has the same slot layout. Not...exactly. A 25% resist bonus actually corresponds to a 33% increase in anything related to your hit points. EHP, local tank, remote tank all benefit from this 1/3 improvement. By contrast, a 25% remote repair bonus gives exactly 25% more. This is essentially the reason the Nidhoggur's RR-bonus was increased to 7.5% per level. I mention this mostly because you cited the Nidhoggur's old ship bonus. The recent buff mostly addressed this concern, and as you stated it comes down to whether you're prioritizing the survival of the capital or the subcaps. However, I would like to point out that most subcaps will have better resists than the Nidhoggur repping them, if only because they'll have more slots to fit resist modules. Amarrian ships may even have a resist bonus on top of it. Local reps are also less capacitor efficient than remote, and the triage carrier isn't exactly going to be getting any damage reduction from speed or signature radius... The next difference is slot configuration. An Archon has an extra low slot at the cost of a midslot. For triage, this basically means trading a Capacitor Power Relay for a Cap Recharger. The former gives a 24% bonus, while the latter gives only a 20% bonus. This ultimately means that an Archon will have 5.3% more capacitor per second. Not a huge gain, but certainly worth noting when people shell out 130 million isk to get the same effect from an implant. Next, there's the matter of fitting constraints. If you want to bring an armor tanked carrier to assist armor-fitted subcaps, the Archon can bring two local reps and three remote reps. While you're certainly not going to be running all of them full out, the additional rep lets you more quickly respond to target switches -- you can throw a rep on a target who needs it even while your other two are finishing their cycle. If a Nidhoggur tried to do this, it would need almost 6.5% more powergrid, even before fitting the last high slot. Speaking of high slots, the Archon fits an energy transfer. That energy transfer lets triage pairs and triads exchange capacitor to prepare for a triage cycle. It lets them assist subcaps when they're being neuted or need to neut (Bhaalgorns). And they get a range bonus to it, allowing those subcaps a degree of mobility to do their job that the Nidhoggur simply can't, even if it did have the powergrid to fit it. Capacitor warfare is a huge part of capital warfare. The energy transfer gives the Archon and Chimera a measure of defense. And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers. And finally, we get to EHP. The Archon gets more armor, so it gets more benefit from its hardeners. With two faction EANMs fitted, the Archon gets 230k more EHP. Swapping one of those for a damage control, that increases to 244k. That may not seem like a lot in the scale of capital warfare, but it's another 800 DPS the enemy has to deal over that 5 minute period.
This is a damn fine post.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Daneel Trevize
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 22:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Caldari have the worst carrier for everything. The bonuses are fine for shield fleets, the trouble is it's a solid 25% too short on CPU. It simply cannot be fit for triage due to CPU restrictions. Times are a-changin', check Sisi/Chaos data. |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
57
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 22:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
I sooooo want the nid for looks, but as Amarr already explained, the archon is just better unless you are just pos repping. (joy).
*sighs* poor niddy, best looking but thats about it. |
Yan Li Mae
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 23:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Daneel Trevize wrote:King Rothgar wrote:Caldari have the worst carrier for everything. The bonuses are fine for shield fleets, the trouble is it's a solid 25% too short on CPU. It simply cannot be fit for triage due to CPU restrictions. Times are a-changin', check Sisi/Chaos data.
DO NOT ******* TEASE ME! OUT WITH IT! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 23:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yan Li Mae wrote:Daneel Trevize wrote:King Rothgar wrote:Caldari have the worst carrier for everything. The bonuses are fine for shield fleets, the trouble is it's a solid 25% too short on CPU. It simply cannot be fit for triage due to CPU restrictions. Times are a-changin', check Sisi/Chaos data. DO NOT ******* TEASE ME! OUT WITH IT!
-27 CPU per cap remote shield rep, IIRC. I worked out a deadspace fit Chimera fit for WH triage use and it looked pretty sexy.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Aamrr
212
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Posted - 2012.01.13 00:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Do you usually find yourself CPU constrained on your Basilisk, Liang? (I know you aren't a fan of Scimitars.) I obviously can't speak for you, but I can't say I've ever had an issue with CPU. Perhaps it's because you locally active tank -- needless to say, an X-large shield booster would readily explain the discrepancy.
I'm not sure that that's a standard use case for the Basilisk, though -- I think it's a problem that would be more readily addressed by an active tanking bonus on the Gallente and Minmatar Logistics (I suggest capacitor reduction). |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 00:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'd love to see an active tank bonus on the Gal/Minnie logistics. Unfortunately, high sec Incursion carebears seem to be mighty attached to that tracking link bonus and don't give two ***** about how obsolete the TL bonus makes the ships in PVP. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Aamrr
212
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Posted - 2012.01.13 00:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
How would you feel if that bonus were just given to all Logis, and piggybacked on the existing remote bonus? You know, something like this:
- (Basilisk) Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Shield Transport, Booster, and Energy Transfer Array capacitor use per level
- (Guardian) Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Energy Transfer Array, Local, and Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use per level
- (Oneiros) Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Local and Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use and 10% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency per level
- (Scimitar) Logistics Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency and 15% reduction in Shield Transport and Booster capacitor use per level
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 00:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
So your suggestion is that the Basi and Scim get a cap use bonus to shield boosters and the Ony/Guardian get a cap use bonus to armor reps? I don't think that would materially address why the Basilisk is so superior to the Scimitar.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
265
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 00:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'd love to see an active tank bonus on the Gal/Minnie logistics. Unfortunately, high sec Incursion carebears seem to be mighty attached to that tracking link bonus and don't give two ***** about how obsolete the TL bonus makes the ships in PVP. :)
-Liang
I can't believe you just seriously suggested a Scimitar is obsolete in PvP. |
Aamrr
212
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Posted - 2012.01.13 00:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
I can. I'm not sure I agree with it, but Liang's been of that opinion for years now.
If you're really so concerned about that Liang, we could restrict the local capacitor savings to only the Oneiros and Scimitar. I don't see it as being much of an issue, though. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 00:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I'd love to see an active tank bonus on the Gal/Minnie logistics. Unfortunately, high sec Incursion carebears seem to be mighty attached to that tracking link bonus and don't give two ***** about how obsolete the TL bonus makes the ships in PVP. :)
-Liang I can't believe you just seriously suggested a Scimitar is obsolete in PvP.
I've already taken both of you morons on and shown you not only practically why the Basilisk is better, but also numerically why the Basilisk is better. The only times you're actually smart to bring a Scim is when you expect to face OVERWHELMING EM damage or when you have some reason to suspect the entire fight is going to take place at 5km/s.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 00:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:I can. I'm not sure I agree with it, but Liang's been of that opinion for years now.
If you're really so concerned about that Liang, we could restrict the local capacitor savings to only the Oneiros and Scimitar. I don't see it as being much of an issue, though.
It would be an interesting change, I admit. I think the practical effect would be that the Scim and Ony would be better at RRing while under fire themselves and better under heavy neutralization. I doubt it would be enough to overcome the missing RR + cloak.
I'm unwilling to dismiss it out of hand but I'm reasonably confident its not good enough. :(
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
265
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Posted - 2012.01.13 01:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The only times you're actually smart to bring a Scim is when you expect to face OVERWHELMING EM damage or when you have some reason to suspect the entire fight is going to take place at 5km/s.
You seem angry. Quick question: do you ever fight in medium gangs? |
Aamrr
212
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Posted - 2012.01.13 01:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I've already taken both of you morons on and shown you not only practically why the Basilisk is better, but also numerically why the Basilisk is better. The only times you're actually smart to bring a Scim is when you expect to face OVERWHELMING EM damage or when you have some reason to suspect the entire fight is going to take place at 5km/s.
-Liang
Whoa! What did I ever say to deserve this? I was trying to stay out of all this!
And you had just liked one of my posts, too. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 01:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The only times you're actually smart to bring a Scim is when you expect to face OVERWHELMING EM damage or when you have some reason to suspect the entire fight is going to take place at 5km/s. You seem angry. Quick question: do you ever fight in medium gangs?
Wait, you mean I should just laugh it off when a pair of otherwise respected people decide that they're going to talk about a topic they haven't ever even thought about and have never flown in and and are scared to fly in and haven't even bothered to theory craft? And then they feel compelled to attack me for 20ish pages for challenging the status quo until I finally prove that they're dead wrong not only practically and from experience but also according to EFT? AND THEN the only solution they can come up with is nerf the Basilisk because Liang is right.
Furthermore, you continue to wage the fight and ask if I ever fly in "medium gangs" (whatever the **** that even means - depending who you talk to thats anywhere from 10 to 500 people for ****'s sake). AND IN EITHER CASE, the Basilisk has more survivability and repping power in both of those situations.
Fuckwit.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
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Posted - 2012.01.13 01:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I've already taken both of you morons on... Whoa! What did I ever say to deserve this? I was trying to stay out of all this! And you had just liked one of my posts, too.
I'm not talking to you. Cambarus and Mfume went on a 20 page retardo post streak where they felt compelled to interject ******** baseless opinions that flew not only in the face of actual experience but also EFT. ******* morons.
Those two fuckwits are half the reason I'm so angry at the eve forums these days - the entire god damn thing is so centric around EFT and the ******* status quo that someone who actually ******* flies the ships and plays the ******* game is ridiculed for noticing that the masses have their collective heads up their ******* asses.
-Liang
Ed: And **** man, it has nothing at all to do with low sec but I don't expect a fuckwit that's afraid to fly a solo logi to ******* understand that. Its simply the way the god damn fights work you ******* moron. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
137
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Posted - 2012.01.13 01:34:00 -
[32] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:King Rothgar wrote:Minmatar have the best triage carrier imho but I am in a minority on that opinion. It is 25% squishier than an archon but it RR's 25% better in exchange. And a triage carrier's survival is based almost exclusively on the survival of the subcaps it is repping. It has basically the same tank as a thanny given it has the same slot layout. Not...exactly. A 25% resist bonus actually corresponds to a 33% increase in anything related to your hit points. EHP, local tank, remote tank all benefit from this 1/3 improvement. By contrast, a 25% remote repair bonus gives exactly 25% more. This is essentially the reason the Nidhoggur's RR-bonus was increased to 7.5% per level. I mention this mostly because you cited the Nidhoggur's old ship bonus. The recent buff mostly addressed this concern, and as you stated it comes down to whether you're prioritizing the survival of the capital or the subcaps. However, I would like to point out that most subcaps will have better resists than the Nidhoggur repping them, if only because they'll have more slots to fit resist modules. Amarrian ships may even have a resist bonus on top of it. Local reps are also less capacitor efficient than remote, and the triage carrier isn't exactly going to be getting any damage reduction from speed or signature radius... The next difference is slot configuration. An Archon has an extra low slot at the cost of a midslot. For triage, this basically means trading a Capacitor Power Relay for a Cap Recharger. The former gives a 24% bonus, while the latter gives only a 20% bonus. This ultimately means that an Archon will have 5.3% more capacitor per second. Not a huge gain, but certainly worth noting when people shell out 130 million isk to get the same effect from an implant. Next, there's the matter of fitting constraints. If you want to bring an armor tanked carrier to assist armor-fitted subcaps, the Archon can bring two local reps and three remote reps. While you're certainly not going to be running all of them full out, the additional rep lets you more quickly respond to target switches -- you can throw a rep on a target who needs it even while your other two are finishing their cycle. If a Nidhoggur tried to do this, it would need almost 6.5% more powergrid, even before fitting the last high slot. Speaking of high slots, the Archon fits an energy transfer. That energy transfer lets triage pairs and triads exchange capacitor to prepare for a triage cycle. It lets them assist subcaps when they're being neuted or need to neut (Bhaalgorns). And they get a range bonus to it, allowing those subcaps a degree of mobility to do their job that the Nidhoggur simply can't, even if it did have the powergrid to fit it. Capacitor warfare is a huge part of capital warfare. The energy transfer gives the Archon and Chimera a measure of defense. And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers. And finally, we get to EHP. The Archon gets more armor, so it gets more benefit from its hardeners. With two faction EANMs fitted, the Archon gets 230k more EHP. Swapping one of those for a damage control, that increases to 244k. That may not seem like a lot in the scale of capital warfare, but it's another 800 DPS the enemy has to deal over that 5 minute period.
A few things, first of all, you are right that I used the old bonuses. I actually haven't dropped the damn thing since the changes nor did I check the bonuses. I only noticed the extra PG and promptly fitted a third RR to it. With that third RR, the archon's burst advantage is gone.
The archon does have a slightly better capacitor due to slot layout as you noted, there is no denying this. However the greater rep amount from the nidhoggur more than compensates. You get a much better sustained RR amount than on the archon. I have often found myself only needing 1 RR sustained to keep people alive when flying the niddy due to this. So as a whole, the niddy ends up with more cap to play with since it is more cap efficient when RRing than the archon is.
You are correct that pretty much all the subcaps will have better resists than the nidhoggur (and possibly an archon too) and thus a better repped tank. The archon also has substantially more EHP. But this doesn't change the fact that in 30-50 man fleets where you would drop a triage carrier, there is a good chance you can tank the enemy fleet for the 5 minute cycle should they decide to call you primary instead of the subcaps. At which point a second triage carrier takes your place and reps you up. This alternating dual triage carriers setup is pretty standard I think and it makes those carriers tough to take down without SC's, even with the weaker tank on the niddy.
But you are correct that it this ultimately comes down to priority. You either put your own tank first or your fleet's. |
Aamrr
213
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Posted - 2012.01.13 01:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Hrm. Is my fitting tool out of date? I could have sworn you couldn't fit two local repairers and three remote repairers to a Nidhoggur. I lack the skills to fly it, so I'm afraid I can't make that judgment in game. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 01:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
Rothgar, did you fit a shield transporter? I remember trying to fit a third armor RR to my niddy and it not fitting... maybe I did something wrong? Can you post your Nid fit?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
57
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
Rothgar, yes you can fit 3 remote reppers but no the pretty standard energy transfer on the niddy.. aaallmost with a 5% PG implant.. hmm wonder if you cant with a 6% though that of course takes the place of one of the cap implants.. dammit... nope 6% wont make it either. juuuust to much.
So.. how do you fit it? linky please?
[Nidhoggur, test]
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I [Empty High slot] Triage Module I
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Capital Armor Repairer I Capital Armor Repairer I Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
is what i was looking at.. and that cant fit the energy transfer that the archon fits with ease. |
Aamrr
213
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
Those power diagnostics don't provide anywhere near enough capacitor. The Archon would gain a 19% capacitor regen for each CPR you swapped out. |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
57
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 02:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Those power diagnostics don't provide anywhere near enough capacitor. The Archon would gain a 19% capacitor regen for each CPR you swapped out.
I know, but was the only way those reppers would fit ^^ I did say i didnt like the nid, which is why i also is interested in his fit. |
Aamrr
213
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Take a look at an ancillary current router instead. You'll get better capacitor numbers. Still not a good idea, though. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 02:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
The ACR on a Nid gets competitive capacitor? I... am missing something I fear?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Aamrr
213
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:36:00 -
[40] - Quote
Competitive? Absolutely not. Better than swapping out two CPRs for PDUs? Yes. |
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Mumtaz Khan
Nagrom Security Syndicate Flatline.
27
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Posted - 2012.01.13 05:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
snake03 wrote:Mumtaz Khan wrote:Amarr. Always Amarr. Unless you plan on using the carrier for WHs, the Archon is always the preferred capital. The Redeemer is also the best Black Ops because its bonuses are actually useful (should you actually decide to engage with it). Gallente would be my second choice, as people are usually pretty satisfied with having a Thanatos if there's not an Archon available. The obvious benefit of going Gallente is that you get the most use out of your drone skills with both the Thanatos and the Sin.
The Nidhoggur is an underestimated and versatile carrier, but I don't have enough good things to say about the Minmatar or Caldari carriers or black ops to make an argument about. Golem and Vargur have their merits if carebearing's your thing. Your saying that the 30% ECM jammer strength per level of the Widow is'nt useful?
No. It's not. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
265
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Posted - 2012.01.13 06:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Fuckwit.
-Liang
That's quite possibly the angriest I've ever seen someone become to a non-troll post. |
Aamrr
216
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Posted - 2012.01.13 11:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mumtaz Khan wrote:snake03 wrote:Your saying that the 30% ECM jammer strength per level of the Widow is'nt useful? No. It's not.
I must really be missing something, then. Care to explain? |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
58
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 17:54:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Take a look at an ancillary current router instead. You'll get better capacitor numbers. Still not a good idea, though.
Didnt even think of that. yupp but still.. crap compared to the archon.. *sighs* damn you niddy! *laughs* |
Aamrr
220
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Posted - 2012.01.13 18:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
In the interests of fairness, I would like to clarify a point I made in my earlier analysis. I pointed out (correctly) that the Archon's larger capacitor buffer gave it an advantage over other carriers. This is true, but perhaps not to the degree I mentioned earlier since the larger capacitor buffer means that you'll spend a larger (absolute) amount of capacitor to activate your jump drive.
If the carriers enter combat at full capacitor my argument stands as written, but that's hardly the case when you're jumping to a combat cyno. The Archon still gets a larger capacitor buffer than any other carrier would -- but as it's been reduced to 30%, you're largely running on regen anyway.
Better to point out my own error than have someone else do it, I suppose. Fly smart, everyone. |
Mumtaz Khan
Nagrom Security Syndicate Flatline.
27
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 18:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
If you want ECM in your black ops gang, put in a falcon. You don't want to drop in your billion isk paper-tanked BS to do it. You're not going to be engaging in fleet on fleet PVP, so more DPS is more useful than more EWAR. The only time you should bridge your black ops in with the gang is when you want to speed up killing things, and you're sure you're not going to get the **** smacked out of it. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
266
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Posted - 2012.01.13 20:54:00 -
[47] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:I must really be missing something, then. Care to explain?
It's a really expensive Scorpion. And if you're using it for jamming on bridging in, you have no opportunity to pull range. |
Aamrr
221
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Posted - 2012.01.13 21:29:00 -
[48] - Quote
More like a really expensive Falcon, but point taken. |
Adam Lees
BCBS Blue Crew Beef Stew
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 06:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
In terms of super carriers, which one is the best dps wise? |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
267
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 07:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
Adam Lees wrote:In terms of super carriers, which one is the best dps wise?
Nyx. |
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Kagan Storm
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
42
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Posted - 2012.01.14 12:37:00 -
[51] - Quote
Blake Walan wrote:I have decided to train for a carrier, and doing so will pick up blops and possibly maraude
whats a blop? My ego is the the size of my carriers jump range. |
Aamrr
223
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 12:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
A recently declassified government project to create a Biologically Luminous Orbital Ptarmigan.
Or Black Ops. It depends on context. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
141
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 16:51:00 -
[53] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Rothgar, did you fit a shield transporter? I remember trying to fit a third armor RR to my niddy and it not fitting... maybe I did something wrong? Can you post your Nid fit?
-Liang
It is indeed a shield transporter. You wouldn't believe how many guys I've kept alive by having one of those things on hand to cover that 1.6 seconds till the armor kicks in. And now it fits without having to do interesting things to the rest of the fit. You are correct that a third armor RR doesn't readily fit, I actually never checked before just now tbh. I've always favored that shield xfer to cover the delay between activating the armor RR and it actually taking effect. Still, it isn't terribly short. I think you could squeeze one on with some minor modifications to the cookie cutter fit. Something to tinker with I suppose. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
141
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 17:02:00 -
[54] - Quote
I was right, it fits with a PG10. The meta/faction **** is not required. You can't fit a heavy neut in the last high slot but you do have some grid and loads of CPU left.
[Nidhoggur, hmm...] Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
[empty high slot] Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Triage Module I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
577
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 19:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
Yeah but then you give up slot 6. It wouldn't be the end of the world to get just that extra oomph on some grid IMO. :P
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Limvala Adur
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.15 07:55:00 -
[56] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:I was right, it fits with a PG10. The meta/faction **** is not required. You can't fit a heavy neut in the last high slot but you do have some grid and loads of CPU left.
[Nidhoggur, hmm...] Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
[empty high slot] Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Triage Module I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
I'm quite unexperienced when it comes to capitals atm, but I'd like to know (besides the already mentioned difference in capacitor capacity) is there any other meaningful difference between this and an Archon. I'm pretty much close to the point I have to make a choice, it's going to be either Min. caps (I like their looks a lot more) or Amarr ones. I know all there's to know about the cookie cutter advices, what I don't know is actual gaming experience. Plus, RND seem to only make Archon/Thanny videos so I can't even draw conclusions from good videos. |
Aamrr
225
|
Posted - 2012.01.15 10:28:00 -
[57] - Quote
I already answered that question in great detail on page one. You can find it here.
As for RnK leaving the Nidhoggur out of their videos: There's probably a reason for it. See if you can find one in my post (I put several). |
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