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Hanoi Hana	Posted - 2007.07.29 23:46:00 - [1] Just got Margin Trading IV, and each level is a huge boost to my trading. If I recall correctly, there was no 'escrow' for buy orders way back when. I could put up an order for 500 million tritanium and I would only pay as much as my wallet had money for. How did the penalties used to work out on that? As it stands, I am more than happy to have a barrier to entry on the trading market. I can't believe how much more income I can make with Margin Trading. Sorry, the cat got loose from the bag. :)
Oriella Trikassi Trikassi Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.30 00:46:00 - [2] Yes, it's changed a lot. Fortunately for me the Trading skill nerf didn't strike until I had enough ISK to afford the skill books, so like everyone else I gritted teeth and grinded training for six months. I can see it will be a struggle now, being unable to Trade efficiently without the skills and having the megaTraders able to undercut you. The same goes for Manufacturing in commodity markets of course. On the other hand, the number of Traders has IMO always lagged behind the expanding economy. There are still fortunes to be made out there, often in corners that the PvPers don't know exist. --- Trikassi Enterprises, oiling the jumpgates of commerce since 2004
Hanoi Hana	Posted - 2007.07.30 00:49:00 - [3] Well, I'm doing just fine working in Jita 4-4 without moving or transporting anything. I started with 550mil capital a few weeks ago, and just five minutes ago I passed 1bil in wallet cash for the first time ever! Yay :)
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.07.30 02:36:00 - [4] This skill is great for people with small amounts of money. Once you get very rich it only serves as an annoyance. If you could turn this skill on/off I'd train it, but I generally never would want it working so I don't bother. As to needing a lot of skills to trade.... I can't say I agree. It's quite easy to make good money trading without anything more than retail 4. Wholesale 4 helps a lot tho. Of course some of the other skills to level 3/4 are useful too, but 6 months of training? I don't think so. 2 weeks of training is enough to get most skills to adequate levels to start and 2-3 more weeks will get you as far as you need to go to make very good money. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Tradenator	Posted - 2007.07.30 04:59:00 - [5] I started trading about 3 weeks back with 400m. I've only made a few 100m since then, I think I must be doing something wrong. Unfortunately I'm only able to logon about twice a day. I've just got margin trading to 2, which is where i'll leave it for now. It's very hand to place bigger buy orders, but other than that I don't see it as very handy because you need the reserves to cover getting large quantities.
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.07.30 06:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Tradenator Edited by: Tradenator on 30/07/2007 05:28:23 I started trading about 3 weeks back with 400m. I've only made a few 100m since then, I think I must be doing something wrong. Unfortunately I'm only able to logon about twice a day. I've just got margin trading to 2, which is where i'll leave it for now. It's very handy to place bigger buy orders, but other than that I don't see it as overly useful because you need the reserves to cover getting large quantities. Do you update your buy and sell orders everytime you do login?
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:23:00 - [7] Originally by: Shadarle As to needing a lot of skills to trade.... I can't say I agree. 2 weeks of training is enough to get most skills to adequate levels to start and 2-3 more weeks will get you as far as you need to go to make very good money. You can get semi-decent marketing skills right out of the box. Broker Relations IV Day Trading IV Retail III Trade V With this alt, if you do every aspect of Trading to level V, that's Connections Skills, Diplomacy etc, Transport Ships, Freighter, Advance Spaceship command V all the learning skills and install +3 - It'll take 280-300days. And that's LEVEL 5 on every single skill you would do to make Trading your life blood. Mind you if you took off all the ships and did just Trading skills and learning skills to speed it up, you could have Level 5 on Tycoon Accounting Broker Relations Contracting Retail Trade Wholesale Level 4 on Daytrading Marketing Procurement Visibility Time - 110-115 days Remember that's Tycoon 5. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Zifrian	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:29:00 - [8] I've been playing for almost a month now. I started trade route without knowing anything about the game. Once you get procurement and marketing, it's pretty cake. The escrow thing is kinda tough but I started out with around 5 mil and I'm up to 20 or so. I'm not even worried about margin trading. I'd rather get wholesale first. I'm not really sure where I am on total made but I haven't lost on anything I've bought yet. Still learning the market. I'm in a cruiser now with some decent skills, have all learning at 4 except focus/clarity/prescence at 3 and +3 implants. So yeah, you don't really miss out by starting trade. I've had a great experience so far.
Nalar Marnith Minmatar Tetranex Consolidated	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Nalar Marnith on 01/08/2007 01:29:02 Edited by: Nalar Marnith on 01/08/2007 01:28:13 Originally by: WhitePhantom Do you update your buy and sell orders everytime you do login? It's not often I'll log in and find one of my orders still in the best position. As a result I've started setting wider ranges for my buys. This means more work, but I can still perform my order maintenance while flying around collecting everything.
Hanoi Hana	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:28:00 - [10] Edited by: Hanoi Hana on 01/08/2007 01:29:39 Originally by: Nalar Marnith It's not often I'll log in and find one of my orders still in the best position. As a result I've started setting wider ranges for my buys. This means more work, but I can still perform my order maintenance while flying around collecting everything. And you know the reason why your buy orders are in the best position when you log on is because the better offers were already completely filled before you logged on. :) By the way, who really trains six months for trading skills? I did about three weeks and got everything up to level 4, except for just Wholesale 3. I've got all the skills I could ever want right now.
Galgorth	Posted - 2007.08.01 05:38:00 - [11] Originally by: Shadarle This skill is great for people with small amounts of money. Once you get very rich it only serves as an annoyance. If you could turn this skill on/off I'd train it, but I generally never would want it working so I don't bother. As to needing a lot of skills to trade.... I can't say I agree. It's quite easy to make good money trading without anything more than retail 4. Wholesale 4 helps a lot tho. Of course some of the other skills to level 3/4 are useful too, but 6 months of training? I don't think so. 2 weeks of training is enough to get most skills to adequate levels to start and 2-3 more weeks will get you as far as you need to go to make very good money. Why is margin trading an annoyance when you're 'very rich'? I recently passed the two-digit billions isk mark, and I find margin trading to be extremely helpful.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Galgorth Originally by: Shadarle This skill is great for people with small amounts of money. Once you get very rich it only serves as an annoyance. If you could turn this skill on/off I'd train it, but I generally never would want it working so I don't bother. As to needing a lot of skills to trade.... I can't say I agree. It's quite easy to make good money trading without anything more than retail 4. Wholesale 4 helps a lot tho. Of course some of the other skills to level 3/4 are useful too, but 6 months of training? I don't think so. 2 weeks of training is enough to get most skills to adequate levels to start and 2-3 more weeks will get you as far as you need to go to make very good money. Why is margin trading an annoyance when you're 'very rich'? I recently passed the two-digit billions isk mark, and I find margin trading to be extremely helpful. I said very rich. Obviously with 10 billion you could find a way to put more than that in escrow. It gets tougher every time you add 5 billion more to that though. Eventually you just run out of things to use the money for. Then you have to deal with the whole percentages. Makes book keeping a little more of a hassle. I much prefer not having the skill as I never have a need for the extra isk. Especially since 30-40% of my escrow can be used up in a full day of trading at times. I could never not have all of my escrow available in-case most of it was required. In which case, if I was going to keep all the money in my wallet anyhow, why make my accounting any harder? For people with long buy orders that takes months and months to fill... sure, it makes sense to have margin trading. But I am not and have never been interested in such a long term passive trading style. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kua Toil Trading Alt-ercations	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:53:00 - [13] Margin trading rawks.

Pirlouit Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:46:00 - [14] I fell in love with the skill at level 1 I proposed at level 2 We got married at lvl3 and lived happily ever after at lvl 4.... forum rules \| email

Hexxx Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:53:00 - [15] Margin trading is one of the best skills I ever trained. I use exports and excel to calculate my assets. Kind of negates the whole "but it makes accounting HARD" criticism that comes along with margin trading. Margin trading rawks. It rawks sooooo hard. So hard it makes me tingle deep inside. It is true that it becomes "pointless" sometimes when you have so much money that it doesn't really matter if it's in escrow or out of escrow (your just THAT rich) but honestly....at the end of the day, I want my money in my wallet, not in escrow. It's my money damnit! Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
Taikun Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.08.02 06:43:00 - [16] Anyone who says margin trading skill is an 'annoyance' at high ISK levels isn't investing their excess income. Of you don't invest your excess income you are making zero return. Zero return on cash makes you a poor market trader. Unless of course you own all T2 BPO's racial capital ship BPOs and Titan BPOs. Until that point. You are not rich and should invest your excess income in profit generating assets. Taikun P.S. Pfftt... I'd be embarassed if I said I am running out of things to buy in this game. I mean honestly... ----------------------------------- For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:55:00 - [17] Personally, I don't use "unlikely to hit" buy orders often enough to merit training it. There are some industries where as a matter of course you need them, and there are others where you don't. It's only really dead ISK if the buy order is expected to persist for any length of time. That said, I'm moving into a few opportunities where I will need those kinds of long-term, random-fill orders, so it's probably going to be on the training list in the near future.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:00:00 - [18] Originally by: Taikun Anyone who says margin trading skill is an 'annoyance' at high ISK levels isn't investing their excess income. Of you don't invest your excess income you are making zero return. Zero return on cash makes you a poor market trader. Unless of course you own all T2 BPO's racial capital ship BPOs and Titan BPOs. Until that point. You are not rich and should invest your excess income in profit generating assets. Taikun P.S. Pfftt... I'd be embarassed if I said I am running out of things to buy in this game. I mean honestly... Those with a bill or two isk should realize they aren't all that special. Sure, it's easy to invest 100% of your money when that's all you have. This skill is quite good for those who don't have enough money to place all the buy orders they want. The thing is people just do not understand how things change as you make more and more money. The difference between 100 mil and 1 billion is the same as the diff between 1 bil and 10 bil and 10 bil and 100 bil. To get ultra-high returns on all of the money is harder and harder. One major difference between those who need this skill and those who don't... is if you drop a stapler on your keyboard and lose a few million isk and it causes you to whine and complain nonstop about it then you need this skill. If you just shrug it off as no big deal then you don't need it. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Hanoi Hana	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:44:00 - [19] I've already had all staplers in my area of operations removed.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Hanoi Hana I've already had all staplers in my area of operations removed. And cats.
Pang Grohl Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:36:00 - [21] Originally by: Ramblin Man Originally by: Hanoi Hana I've already had all staplers in my area of operations removed. And cats. Cats are far more dangerous than staplers. They come with malicious intent. OT: Margin trading is a godsend for a manufacturer. And, the truth is margin trading is much more useful if you run on a thin cash reserve. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Alewin Venus Research Initiative Empire Research	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:42:00 - [22] I do find Margin Trading to be useful for the 'supply chain management' role. It simplifies running largish mineral/ore orders that are generally going to take some time to fill, and while the orders are filling, inventory produced from those minerals are being sold. Basically the orders get funded by product sales. At least for the time being, it frees up operating capital for other purposes. Tired of Waiting? Use Empire Research
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:24:00 - [23] Originally by: Alewin I do find Margin Trading to be useful for the 'supply chain management' role. It simplifies running largish mineral/ore orders that are generally going to take some time to fill, and while the orders are filling, inventory produced from those minerals are being sold. Basically the orders get funded by product sales. At least for the time being, it frees up operating capital for other purposes. This is the exact situation in which it is useful. I have been doing tests to see how long my orders are up for and have been doubling/tripling the size of my orders to see if doing so would change my opinion of this skill. Even multiplying most of my order volumes by 3-5 times what they used to be I still have decided that I don't need it. But it probably would have been helpful 9+ months ago before I had the money I do now if I had expanded my order size to this degree. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.02 23:20:00 - [24] Margin Trading is a must have. I spent bout 5 months training trade skills and my wallet thanks me... Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Taikun Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.08.03 04:51:00 - [25] Originally by: Shadarle The thing is people just do not understand how things change as you make more and more money. The difference between 100 mil and 1 billion is the same as the diff between 1 bil and 10 bil and 10 bil and 100 bil. To get ultra-high returns on all of the money is harder and harder. And what makes you think you should be getting 'ultra high' returns on large sums of ISK? Don't you get tired of posting stupid things? For years now my extra billions have been locked up in assets that return a very low rate of return. But it is returning a rate because of time constraints to playing the game. Unlike real life I can't hire anyone to play the market for me. Now you on the other hand... you warble on about how useless this skill is or anyone who is 'unltra rich'. Well for expressing that position I call you a liar or an incompetent trader or quite frankly, both. You honeslty have us beleive that instead of investing your extra ISK on any revenue generating asset... you tuck it away in escrow because you're too cheap to buy and train the margin trading skill. And your reasoning for doing so... you claim to be 'ultra rich'. sniff sniff Whats that I smell? Smells like... like a steaming pile of nonsense. Taikun ----------------------------------- For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.08.03 06:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Taikun And what makes you think you should be getting 'ultra high' returns on large sums of ISK? Don't you get tired of posting stupid things? For years now my extra billions have been locked up in assets that return a very low rate of return. But it is returning a rate because of time constraints to playing the game. Unlike real life I can't hire anyone to play the market for me. Now you on the other hand... you warble on about how useless this skill is or anyone who is 'unltra rich'. Well for expressing that position I call you a liar or an incompetent trader or quite frankly, both. You honeslty have us beleive that instead of investing your extra ISK on any revenue generating asset... you tuck it away in escrow because you're too cheap to buy and train the margin trading skill. And your reasoning for doing so... you claim to be 'ultra rich'. sniff sniff Whats that I smell? Smells like... like a steaming pile of nonsense. Taikun There are also, of course, those opportunities where training Spell Checking V is more useful than Margin Trading.
Taikun Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.08.03 06:40:00 - [27] Originally by: Ramblin Man There are also, of course, those opportunities where training Spell Checking V is more useful than Margin Trading. Fur thoose oof uS thar kare aboot suche fings. Taikun ----------------------------------- For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.08.03 06:48:00 - [28] Originally by: Taikun Originally by: Ramblin Man There are also, of course, those opportunities where training Spell Checking V is more useful than Margin Trading. Fur thoose oof uS thar kare aboot suche fings. What can I say? You only have one chance to make a first impression - and I'd rather mine be eloquent than jumbled.
Hanoi Hana	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:33:00 - [29] Doesn't the little "100,451,123.23 ISK in escrow (345,234,634.12 more required)" remove any argument against ease of keeping track of the margin trading skill? I bet the answer is 'no', so what are the reasons? Thanks guys.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.08.03 17:22:00 - [30] I'm guessing if people have more than twenty buy orders, then they're going to have varying probabilities of being filled. Ergo, then you need to start doing calculations to figure out how much cash you honestly need "on hand" vs. the total remaining cash to pay.

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