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nos changes possible balance problem

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khosta	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:39:00 - [1] First off, I agree nos needed a change as it rarely if ever made sense to not fit at least one, regardless of ship race/type. But a recent sisi test revealed a worrying scenario that the propoesed nos changes would only make worse. The concern is one of balance between capless offensive ability (caldari and minmatar) and those requiring cap to fire (amarr and gallente). For the purpose of clear demonstration, consider an amarr/gallente battleship versus a rokh that used the following tactic. The rokh should exaggerate the problem as i see it due to shield having a capless recharge ability and a ship bonus to resistances. Lets say the rokh is fitted with as many torp launchers as it can, rest of the highs being nos. In the mids it has cap booster, shield booster and some hardners, active or not, doesnt matter. Shield boosters eat lots of cap faster than the armour tanking amarr/gallente ship, so under new rules, nos away. Things get interesting when the caldari/minmatar ship gets very low on cap. Activate cap booster, immediately dump all that cap onto the shields, leaving cap empty. You can continue firing as your guns/missiles require no cap. You have a hitpoint buffer as you just dumped all your cap onto your shields. As you have no cap, press the new style i-win nos button, you cant have more than your opponent. Consider your amarr/gallente opponent. He cannot run for a while on no cap without not being able to fire. He must have a cap excess to run his guns. He must have more cap than his opponent to continue firing. Oops. Under the new changes nos now works for the capless weapons pilot, but not for his opponent. I fear there is an imbalance in capless weapons that the nos change is going to make painfully clear. This could easily be solved by making missiles and projectile guns require a little bit of cap, just to avoid this capability to deliberately 'run dry' ensuring you have less cap than opponent, allowing nos to work for you but not for your cap requiring opponent. Again, I support a nos change, and the current idea seems fine, please show me my fears are unfounded :)
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:47:00 - [2] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/07/2007 11:48:16 Actually, with the new nos, cap-hungry set-ups will get more relative benefit from fitting them. There's already a thread for this discussion, by the way. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Sidephex Illicit Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:51:00 - [3] wayne?
khosta	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:58:00 - [4] Originally by: Rodj Blake There's already a thread for this discussion, by the way. I didnt notice a thread comparing effects of nos change purely on cap using weapon races versus capless weapon races, sorry. Hence the purpose of this thread. If my theory is correct then the new nos changes will be a major nerf to amarr laser users, followed by gallente blaster boats, while being a relative buff to all minmatar and caldari ships. Please show me my specific point, against the specific capless weapon strategy I detailed, is wrong :)
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:07:00 - [5] man it will be a nerf only if you keep fitins tons of Nos. Fit 8 lasers on your apoc and the nos change won nerf you any bit. Will bost you sicne no one will be able to nos you If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
khosta	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:20:00 - [6] Edited by: khosta on 31/07/2007 13:22:57 Originally by: Kagura Nikon (with spelling fixed) man it will be a nerf only if you keep fitting tons of Nos. Fit 8 lasers on your apoc and the nos change wont nerf you a bit. Will boost you since no one will be able to nos you Incorrect. When your laser apoc unleashes on a shield tanker, he will initially use more cap than your lasers as has to start shield tanking immediately. Therefore he can use nos to maximum effect and you cant. As the fight progresses, and both ships move towards zero cap, suddenly your apoc has to choose between tanking and firing, and must start using cap boosters continually. Your shield tanking, zero cap weapon using opponent, can maintain his offensive damage on zero cap, and then do a quick cap injection and immediately dump all of it into shields, denying you your nos cycles. Your apoc/(any cap using weapon ship) is now going to lose the war of attrition as you are going to run out of cap booster charges first. Next challenge to the theory please (I actually want to be wrong). PS I dont fly amarr, im 100% gallente, the second worst affected race, neither of us can effectively 'run dry'.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:44:00 - [7] Originally by: khosta Edited by: khosta on 31/07/2007 13:22:57 Originally by: Kagura Nikon (with spelling fixed) man it will be a nerf only if you keep fitting tons of Nos. Fit 8 lasers on your apoc and the nos change wont nerf you a bit. Will boost you since no one will be able to nos you Incorrect. When your laser apoc unleashes on a shield tanker, he will initially use more cap than your lasers as has to start shield tanking immediately. Therefore he can use nos to maximum effect and you cant. As the fight progresses, and both ships move towards zero cap, suddenly your apoc has to choose between tanking and firing, and must start using cap boosters continually. Your shield tanking, zero cap weapon using opponent, can maintain his offensive damage on zero cap, and then do a quick cap injection and immediately dump all of it into shields, denying you your nos cycles. Your apoc/(any cap using weapon ship) is now going to lose the war of attrition as you are going to run out of cap booster charges first. Next challenge to the theory please (I actually want to be wrong). PS I dont fly amarr, im 100% gallente, the second worst affected race, neither of us can effectively 'run dry'. Well, your Amarr ships with good cap will be better using NEUTs thou, as a drain boat becouse you need more and better cap then your enemy to efficially drain your him befoure you yourself is out. The counter to Neuts being NOS is a good thing also and it only makes sure that if your cap is going down your bringing that NEUTboat with you down. Also Gallante and to some extend amarr have non cap using drones. And using 2x LAR you can drain your own cap to your own armor instead of having it nossed to, not as efficiently as a XL+amp but still you can take advantage of NOS + Cap dumping on armor tankers using NOS to. And generally gunboats have it easier to fit NOS/Neuts then missileboats. Projectile shield tanking boats might become scary thou... If a shield tanker use 800s, why cant you.. heck armor tankers dont waste tank to fit 800 either. Its all relative really. But yes this feels like a boost to shield tanking (wich imo could use a pvp boost, none is shield tanking in pvp these days not even Caldarians becouse you rather armor tank and have mids for EW and gank. Hopefully this will give the shield tankers a good use over EW+armor using) Also fitting NOS over missiles is pretty darn hard atleast on a Raven using Cruiser launchers. But overall NOS should help the tanking aspect more then the DPS aspect. Thoughts? "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
AnKahn	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:48:00 - [8] Can you see how this change is brilliant in its simplicity. It helps balance the races. Shield tanking may actually become useful in PvP. Battles will last longer. We don't hear that much from Ammar. But if CCP could at this point turn it's attention to boosting them. That would also be good for the game.
Lars Intarestum	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:49:00 - [9] Won't the new NOS modules require some cap to use?
khosta	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:55:00 - [10] Edited by: khosta on 31/07/2007 14:03:44 Originally by: Fager And using 2x LAR you can drain your own cap to your own armor instead of having it nossed to, not as efficiently as a XL+amp but still you can take advantage of NOS + Cap dumping on armor tankers using NOS to. Indeed you can, but you cant fire as well, unlike your shield tanking, missile/projectile using opponent. And that is why you are gonna run out of boosters first, and why you're going to lose the fight :) Sadly I have exactly the wrong skills to prove my point on sisi. If i were granted caldari bs 5, and the missile skills all with specs to 4, I believe no (non faction) cap using weapon equipped gallente nor amarr bs could beat me 1v1 using this dry running technique. (a little unsure about a specific fit dominix, but a megathron or hyperion cannot win, regardless of your sp)
Helox Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:34:00 - [11] Originally by: Lars Intarestum Won't the new NOS modules require some cap to use? Omg... I read the whole thread, a bit scared about my blaster setups. Then you came along and won the thread I should have thought about that... Instant win! -- the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
Vorketh Mordanil Amarr Brotherhood of Acquisitions	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:40:00 - [12] I solved this problem by using projectile weapons on my apoc. It's really quite fun :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
khosta	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:49:00 - [13] Edited by: khosta on 31/07/2007 14:51:30 Originally by: Vorketh Mordanil I solved this problem by using projectile weapons on my apoc. It's really quite fun :) Thats also the only solution i can see for my gallente pilot :) Naturally when it becomes apparent that cap using weapons are completely useless, that which is even more obviously broken will get fixed. I wonder if the amarr pilots are too distracted by the effects of nos change on their recons, which imo is a minor effect compared to this massive nerf to their lasers (relative to other weapon types). On a positive note for amarrians, if the nos changes as proposed become standard, you are well on you way to seeing that laser cap use ship bonus getting removed. Ask yourselves amarrians, who is gonna need more cap in a fight (therefore being vulnerable to nos) your laser boat or your opponent?
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Kagura Nikon man it will be a nerf only if you keep fitins tons of Nos. Fit 8 lasers on your apoc and the nos change won nerf you any bit. Will bost you sicne no one will be able to nos you If you show me how to fit 8 Lasers and 1 NOS on my apoc i'll give you 1 B isk Say NO to the NOS nerf
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:52:00 - [15] Originally by: AnKahn Can you see how this change is brilliant in its simplicity. It helps balance the races. Shield tanking may actually become useful in PvP. Battles will last longer. We don't hear that much from Ammar. But if CCP could at this point turn it's attention to boosting them. That would also be good for the game. Shild tank and pvp will never fly on the same ship Say NO to the NOS nerf
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:54:00 - [16] Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: AnKahn Can you see how this change is brilliant in its simplicity. It helps balance the races. Shield tanking may actually become useful in PvP. Battles will last longer. We don't hear that much from Ammar. But if CCP could at this point turn it's attention to boosting them. That would also be good for the game. Shild tank and pvp will never fly on the same ship are we taking bets?
Dominiks HandelsHeldin	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:58:00 - [17] As far as i noticed there are a lot Shield-Tanker out there. And they do PVP well, so what? I fear Double-Neut + Plated Tempest :X Didn't do any calculations, but looks ok on paper 8>
Nick Parker Caldari Rogue Elements	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:04:00 - [18] Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: AnKahn Can you see how this change is brilliant in its simplicity. It helps balance the races. Shield tanking may actually become useful in PvP. Battles will last longer. We don't hear that much from Ammar. But if CCP could at this point turn it's attention to boosting them. That would also be good for the game. Shild tank and pvp will never fly on the same ship Ever heard of a sleipnir?
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:09:00 - [19] Originally by: khosta Edited by: khosta on 31/07/2007 14:51:30 Originally by: Vorketh Mordanil I solved this problem by using projectile weapons on my apoc. It's really quite fun :) Thats also the only solution i can see for my gallente pilot :) Naturally when it becomes apparent that cap using weapons are completely useless, that which is even more obviously broken will get fixed. I wonder if the amarr pilots are too distracted by the effects of nos change on their recons, which imo is a minor effect compared to this massive nerf to their lasers (relative to other weapon types). On a positive note for amarrians, if the nos changes as proposed become standard, you are well on you way to seeing that laser cap use ship bonus getting removed. Ask yourselves amarrians, who is gonna need more cap in a fight (therefore being vulnerable to nos) your laser boat or your opponent? I had almost the same idea in the offcial comments thread. passive weapons like missiles/drones/projectiles will start to rule. in the new scenario NOT fitting nos on a cap unstable ships with passive weapons will have all the advantages. and to the bloke advising Neuts: they kill more cap then thy use, so you enable NOS use to your opponent. anyway basicaly nothing has changed in same class vessels, minor differences will surface between classes (like frigs/cruisers neuted in one cycle). Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/07/2007 11:48:16 Actually, with the new nos, cap-hungry set-ups will get more relative benefit from fitting them. There's already a thread for this discussion, by the way. what blake sed..

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