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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
357
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Posted - 2012.01.13 16:10:00 -
[61] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Jack Dant wrote:(think about it, you never see rigor leviathans, do you?) Actually, you might be shocked at what a rigor fit Levi is capable of, we went over this when deciding what to do with our Levis, who now carry both torp and cruise launchers, cruise to deal with support ships, torps to deal actual damage to structures/caps/supers. I mean the CDFE rigs aren't really that needed since you have the strongest tank of the titans already. EDIT: Also rigor fit Levis can fit a full tank, they have no need to drop tank for damage, and while their damage isn't quite as strong against sub caps, the power of the boosted cruise against a webbed/painted target is staggering.
You are right, they are surprisingly effective (on paper at least). But I'd say they are far more balanced than gun titans. They have no way to lower "transversal", so they can never apply more than 30-50% of their paper DPS.
What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Xtover
Macabre Votum
Against ALL Authorities
56
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Posted - 2012.01.13 16:21:00 -
[62] - Quote
Reading now, there is a good argument against PvE dreads.
then again from my perspective that just means jucier targets in anoms.
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Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon
Intrepid Crossing
15
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Posted - 2012.01.13 16:45:00 -
[63] - Quote
Xtover wrote:Reading now, there is a good argument against PvE dreads. then again from my perspective that just means jucier targets in anoms.
Exactly carriers already PVE and you dont see people bitching about that. So instead now pilots have a choice with the PVE caps v0v.
I am also a fan of the boosting the dread or coming out with a t2 variant that would be able to do far more damage to supers out of siege instead of relying on siege. The problem still remains that unless you specifically tank it a capital can not survive a titan DD which is what discourages a lot of pilots from fly caps against titans. I am one of the few with the mindset that is willing to go and sacrifice 20 dreads or so to go up against a titan fleet. I would be interested to get over on SISI to figure out how many dreads it would take to kill a tracking titan vs a tank titan and how quickly the titan can kill a dread both in and how of siege (remote rep carriers when out of siege).
Just hope that CCP can take a look at this...
And i am with grath where if you could jump without cyno that would be absolutely dirty and most cap pilots would love it. But we would then be back around to cyno spool times and what not.
I feel cyno spool up times are valid as it would require a support fleet to be on the field before supers jump in (keep the cyno ship alive) as it stands right now i do not think anyone is fast enough to kill a cyno ship before 3 to 4 supers jump through at which point unless you have a massive fleet on the other side they wouldn't have jumped unless they are crazy. 
I like the ideas though so far (and yes I have super pilots)
~~~~EDIT~~~~
@OP: I am interested to hear what your ideas are for a mobile cyno jammer however? (module, ship, ect ect??) |
Xtover
Macabre Votum
Against ALL Authorities
56
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Posted - 2012.01.13 16:50:00 -
[64] - Quote
Even with DD, and even with 10 titans, 40 dreads still = 1 titan.
so if you can have 30 gunboat dreads and they all die (40 before initial DD) it was an even fight.
Strange but that's isk war vOv |
Xtover
Macabre Votum
Against ALL Authorities
56
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Posted - 2012.01.13 16:52:00 -
[65] - Quote
Temmu Guerra wrote:~~~~EDIT~~~~
@OP: I am interested to hear what your ideas are for a mobile cyno jammer however? (module, ship, ect ect??)
Fully support, however untargetted, with limited range (20km or so).
Also, need to make sure that it's not carried on every grunt's utility highslot.
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Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon
Intrepid Crossing
15
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
So you would still allow a cyno to warp 100km off you and cyno in the enemy fleet??? (just trying to understand what your intentions are for the module)
and the titan math makes sense to me. But that still assuming 40 dreads can punch through a titans armor without all being blown up (also this is assuming there are no remote reps)
Again I would like to try it on SISI as you can crunch all the numbers you want it still could have a change on the battlefield |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
58
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:13:00 -
[67] - Quote
Temmu Guerra wrote:Xtover wrote:Reading now, there is a good argument against PvE dreads. then again from my perspective that just means jucier targets in anoms. Exactly carriers already PVE and you dont see people bitching about that. So instead now pilots have a choice with the PVE caps v0v. I am also a fan of the boosting the dread or coming out with a t2 variant that would be able to do far more damage to supers out of siege instead of relying on siege. The problem still remains that unless you specifically tank it a capital can not survive a titan DD which is what discourages a lot of pilots from fly caps against titans.
Triaged/sieged capitals indeed cannot survive a Titan DD without some real bizarre fitting mojo. However, a Pantheon Archon can achieve the necessary EHP without any fitting changes (just heat the correct specific hardener); with Slaves, you may even be able to tank a DD on armor alone!
My question: Why are alliances still so seemingly reliant on archaic capital doctrine when fielding full-scale cap fleets? Are Pantheon techniques really considered that exotic by the nullsec world? Is there some giant flashing red sign that says "Only train 1 race's carrier?" Is it that everyone and their dog wants a Nyx and a station hangar full of Thanatoses? You'd expect to be hearing stories of large-scale Pantheon Archon fleets on a routine basis, considering their scalable RR/captransfer ability would make them ideal (as far as carriers go) for keeping supers on the field and would save SC high slots for things like smartbombs and neuts, too.
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Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon
Intrepid Crossing
15
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:26:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
I am also a fan of the boosting the dread or coming out with a t2 variant that would be able to do far more damage to supers out of siege instead of relying on siege. The problem still remains that unless you specifically tank it a capital can not survive a titan DD which is what discourages a lot of pilots from fly caps against titans.
Triaged/sieged capitals indeed cannot survive a Titan DD without some real bizarre fitting mojo. However, a Pantheon Archon can achieve the necessary EHP without any fitting changes (just heat the correct specific hardener); with Slaves, you may even be able to tank a DD on armor alone!
My question: Why are alliances still so seemingly reliant on archaic capital doctrine when fielding full-scale cap fleets? Are Pantheon techniques really considered that exotic by the nullsec world? Is there some giant flashing red sign that says "Only train 1 race's carrier?" Is it that everyone and their dog wants a Nyx and a station hangar full of Thanatoses? You'd expect to be hearing stories of large-scale Pantheon Archon fleets on a routine basis, considering their scalable RR/captransfer ability would make them ideal (as far as carriers go) for keeping supers on the field and would save SC high slots for things like smartbombs and neuts, too.
[/quote]
Hell I have even run pantheon fleets with thannys but the main one is an archon. And sadly its not the pantheon fit is considered or exotic. No the problem is that no one wants to field their capitals. They rather use them to rat in all day and thats that. If I could get 30 archon pilots who knew what they were doing (that is the trick) and had all the proper skills instead of just getting in it to rat (another feat) then yea I wouldnt mind going head to head with some of the supers. The problem is that carriers do not do enough damage to be considered a combat platform. So unless you outnumber the supers with your carrier fleet (which lets be honest would not happen often) you are not going to have enough DPS to out perform the capital reps on the other side. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic
Tragedy.
925
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:31:00 -
[69] - Quote
I have trained both Caldari and Amarr for Dreads and Carriers...obviously not maxed out...lots of work to do still. Point being is to be prepared for either the need for shield or armor. But hey...you can't force it down a persons throat.
EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Xtover
Macabre Votum
Against ALL Authorities
56
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:39:00 -
[70] - Quote
Temmu Guerra wrote:So you would still allow a cyno to warp 100km off you and cyno in the enemy fleet??? (just trying to understand what your intentions are for the module)
and the titan math makes sense to me. But that still assuming 40 dreads can punch through a titans armor without all being blown up (also this is assuming there are no remote reps)
Again I would like to try it on SISI as you can crunch all the numbers you want it still could have a change on the battlefield
Because if they're 100km out they can also be off grid. Makes no difference. However it does prevent any random hotdrop ganks, it can prevent planned escalation (throwing a wrench into any plan leads to fun), and can maybe protect your ass one day.
Maybe give it a 99% reduction for black ops ships. |
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
354
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Posted - 2012.01.13 19:12:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Triaged/sieged capitals indeed cannot survive a Titan DD without some real bizarre fitting mojo.
This is false in the case of sieged dreads. Even a lightly tanked dread can easily survive a single DD. |
Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon
Intrepid Crossing
15
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Posted - 2012.01.13 19:18:00 -
[72] - Quote
Xtover wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote:So you would still allow a cyno to warp 100km off you and cyno in the enemy fleet??? (just trying to understand what your intentions are for the module)
and the titan math makes sense to me. But that still assuming 40 dreads can punch through a titans armor without all being blown up (also this is assuming there are no remote reps)
Again I would like to try it on SISI as you can crunch all the numbers you want it still could have a change on the battlefield Because if they're 100km out they can also be off grid. Makes no difference. However it does prevent any random hotdrop ganks, it can prevent planned escalation (throwing a wrench into any plan leads to fun), and can maybe protect your ass one day. Maybe give it a 99% reduction for black ops ships.
I would rather see it applied to grid or a larger range then 20km. You would not cyno tracking titans right on top of the enemy fleet so you would still be at the mercy of the as they could cyno at their optimal and still cause problems. Granted that is just my opinion and either way would still be a cool concept. At only 20km though I dont see it working that well |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa
Stark Enterprises
1086
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Posted - 2012.01.13 19:35:00 -
[73] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:
Infact, I say allow supers to jump without cynos. Introduce a new skill like "Jumpdrive pinpointing" and add a new super cap only module for low or mid slots that would allow fitted supers to jump without cynos.
Holy mother of god you just made half of PL get wood.
I'm no more than a Neo-liberal super cap hoe. I am to please.
With regards to mobile cyno jamming.......
I proposed a t2 dread a while ago, a spin on star war's interdiction class star destroyers.
A capital interdictor would have a party piece hi-slot module that would create a "drag bubble" for jump drives 1-2 ly across from the system the ship is located in (if the module is activated). All ships jumping over or within range of this gravity well would get pulled into the interdictor's system and spawn within 14km or so from the ship, as if jumping through a star gate.
Another side effect would be a visible bubble 1 or 2 au across, that would prevent cyno's from being activated.
This ship would not prevent normal warping at all, leaving pointing down to sub cap interdictors. But it would completely kill jump drive or hot dropping capability.
God do I wish for a world where the surprise capital hotdrop sex gangs ends up jumping into a prison sex gang bang they were not expecting or jumping to... at all. |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
58
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Posted - 2012.01.14 01:03:00 -
[74] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Triaged/sieged capitals indeed cannot survive a Titan DD without some real bizarre fitting mojo.
This is false in the case of sieged dreads. Even a lightly tanked dread can easily survive a single DD.
I stand corrected then, just ran the calculations for a fairly average Rev fit:
Quote:
Revelation, test
Siege Module II
Dual Giga Beam Laser I
Dual Giga Beam Laser I
Dual Giga Beam Laser I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Capital Armor Repairer I
Imperial Navy Armor EM Hardener
Imperial Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Imperial Navy Armor Kinetic Hardener
Imperial Navy Armor Thermic Hardener
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
2.3mil against explosive to 2.85mil against EM.
On the other hand, it's not the dreads that are the major issue (they're just DPS, albeit quite a bit of it). Losing carriers is a bigger issue due to the loss of the RR and cap transfer they supply to the rest of the fleet, and your typical triage Archon is far squishier EHP-wise than the Rev above, despite having quite a bit more active tank to work with. This is where Pantheon carriers need to step in and fill the gap (and willing pilots who don't get all butthurt over carrier lossmails, too, although it seems that those are hard to come by, although Pantheon carriers do seem to blow up less often than their triage counterparts, I wonder why?).
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