Originally by: Zaqar

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Terrible post. Defeatist, negative, paranoid.

Are you seriously suggesting that if you didn't play in beta, all you are is cannon-fodder? Speak for yourself...

1/10. I would have given 2/10 but you used the word fanboy so I deducted for that.

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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No, I'm seriously saying that unless you can muster 1000 dedicated pilots who are willing to act as one, you will never impact the entrenched Beta Empire positions in zero without resorting to metagaming in the extreme. You simply cannot generate the resources to do so any other way.

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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Originally by: William Hamilton

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I've been playing just over 6 months and my covops ship is just as usefull as any other player in his 50m+ skillpoint battleship, perhaps more.

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Your nickname "Roadkill" is approriate... I like the term cannon-fodder better, but RoadKill is ok... Maybe "speedbump" would be ok too...

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/08/2007 08:02:32

Your post doesnt give any reasons why you think the playing field is "dominated" by beta players. What is it they can do that you cant? If you are a natural leader for example, you can come in and be a real asset to any corporation, no matter what your character skills are.

Answer:(come be cannon-fodder...hehe. in aBeta Corp... hehe.)

Then you go on and on about the economy not being player driven, again without giving any reasons why you think so.
(price control)
Ok, so I'll reply with the same kind of response: The economy is player driven.

Sigh.

Its like coming in to a real life corporation and wanting to start as a team leader, without knowing anything about the corporation. Does it make sense? I mean, in any corporation, if you are good at what you do, the leaders see it and you advance.

Answer:(You keep referring to "coming into" someone elses corp. Try building your own and taking a piece of zero without surrendeing to serfdom... good luck)

Originally by: Death Kill

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They also own all the t2 bpo's.

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This is basically the only thing I agree with. Old players have the majority of the t2 blueprints, it would be strange if they didnt, considering the time they have been here.

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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that the playingfield is dominated by beta-players and that, short of fielding 1000 dedicated pilots, there is no mechanism to challenge that. (and after the Goons, I wonder if 1000 is enough?)

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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oh no the econmy isn't player driven, I mean if it was they could hire an economist to keep an eye on the player allainces and how the market..prices.. oh wait..

They DID hire an economics.

and newflash! in real life the market is not driven by us using your logic.

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Where is he, by the way, and where is that report??

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Quote:

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CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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I have learned....

* that the playingfield is dominated by beta-players and that, short of fielding 1000 dedicated pilots, there is no mechanism to challenge that. (and after the Goons, I wonder if 1000 is enough?)

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They also own all the t2 bpo's.
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QFT

I invent stuff and make a huge profit while controlling my market.

you see your forgetting that eve has regions. if thge drone regions really did have so many great minerals like you think, then they never would of found there way into high sec anyways. There are 30 something markets in eve. by introducing new resources only about 3% of all of the markets are effected.

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Quote:

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CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Xetu Noi

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7 - By definition any new player will ALWAYS be behind the older players in SP (assuming everyone keeps training). To the degree that new players can catch up to old ones in certain areas of the game is a wonderful thing. However, when it comes to the creation of brand new 0.0 empires, created by new players only (and not joining on with other existing older player run organizations) then I think there is a problem.

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So you think its the character skillpoints that are keeping the new players from creating new 0.0 empires? I think it has much more to do with player experience and knowledge, and those things can be gotten by anyone.

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Originally by: Vincenzo Delloro

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The thing with sandboxes is, if you sit in a corner ****ing in the sand, eventually you're going to end up with more **** than sand.

Meanwhile all the other kids get to make sand castles that aren't made out of ****.

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Originally by: DarkFenix

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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WoW kiddie whine

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1. No. Just no. Beta players do not dominate the playing field. Beta players have no actual advantages over younger players. Get a clue, it's quite clear you know nothing about Eve's denizen alliances.

Answer: That has to be the most ignorant statement I've read. In complete denial aren't you?

2. Wrong. Just because you weren't useful as anything other than cannon fodder, doesn't mean this is always so. I know of a great many very new players (~1 month) who make damn good support pilots, and will certainly end up being damn good pilots in whatever they fly. Then again, I'm sure it's a nice comforting assumption to make that everyone else is as incompetent as you.

Answer: You know alot of good cannon-fodder.

3. If you choose to join huge blobs, expect huge lag. This is so for any game, MMO or not. The solution? Don't blob. Nobody is forcing you to.

Answer: You choose to join the blobs or don't play in zero.

4. Eve has no max level. It's one of its qualities. Don't compare this game to WoW, this game is far deeper, far longer lasting and simply far better than WoW. If this was WoW, I would have reached max level 3 years ago, promptly got bored through nothing to do and quit.

Answer: I didn't say it was worse than WOW. I said the TIME SINK WAS WORSE in that it takes longer to catch up...

5. The economy IS largely player driven. Yes, there are constraints, this isn't the real world and the infinite number of real world variables can't be programmed in. But just about everything in game is manufactured by players. Players largely determine the prices.

Answer: Largely? Is or isn't... Pregnant?.. oh, only slightly..


6. Meta-gaming is not a requirement for success. For nearly 3 years I've had a single character, a single account. No alt scouts, no nothing. I got by just fine. Recently I got an alt to train for other aspects of Eve (my main being solely a pvp character). Has this brought me greater success? Not really. I was doing well before, I'm still doing well. Perhaps you're trying to find more reasons for your failure to achieve anything in Eve?

Answer: Tell me again what part of zero you control without being a serf of Beta Empire and with no metagaming? Didn't think so...

7. Eve is a game with great potential. Much of that potential has been realised, much of it is yet to be so. Eve is constantly changing, I dread to think what a whiny WoW playing kiddie like you would have said about Eve 3 years ago, it was far less idiot-friendly than it is now.

Conclusion? You're an idiot. You think because you're too incompetent/stupid/unskilled to compete in Eve, it's impossible. Everyone else seems to get along just fine, beta and newer players alike. They all find their niche and succeed in it, or if they fail, they learn, adapt, and try again. I guess the only mercy here is that there's a decent chance you'll get off these forums and stick to games more suited to you, like WoW.

Answer: My conclusion is that you are either a BetaBoy dogmatically clinging to your entrenched position or a simpleton who is too shallow to understand your true position in EVE and must resort to Ad Hominem attack to shore up your poor arguementation abilities.

Oh, and have your stuff? Why would I want it? You're quite apparently one of Eve's epic failures, you don't have anything worth taking.

Answer: More Ad Hominem... Failed in debate class didn't you?

Originally by: Lastdon

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Originally by: StarLite

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Edited by: StarLite on 03/08/2007 11:23:49
Grat tacticians,not skillpoints win battles.

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BS....SP+ship+modules are the sole factors in wining a fight. Lock,deal damage,tank, if your hit with EW wait. O I'm sorry the lag factor to.

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Originally by: Xetu Noi

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Originally by: StarLite

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Edited by: StarLite on 03/08/2007 11:23:49
Grat tacticians,not skillpoints win battles.

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Make sure to tell the week old player in the frigate that when he runs into a mothership camping a gate in lowsec

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Quote:

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CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic

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Originally by: Drasked

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Edited by: Drasked on 03/08/2007 12:07:39
What I've learned in 1 year and 8 months of playing EVE....

Nothing?

Eve is all about knowledge of the game, wich is what creates this big gap between players.

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Originally by: Breytli Woelin

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...
That said, the OP is right on many points. It's almost impossible to do anything that isn't sanctioned by the major corps/alliances in this game. ...

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Originally by: Jeximo

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I also like how your cat only managed to hit the enter button when he/she jumped on your keyboard.

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Originally by: Stitcher

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okay, let's see....

*wrong
*wrong
*wrong
*wrong
*wrong
*wrong and...
*wrong

1: The playing field is dominated by alliances who have strong a logistics base and a good sense of teamwork. A single beta-player in a battleship still is no match for ten 07ers in battlecruisers, provided the 07ers are smart and well-co-ordinated.

Answer: And what chance does the 07, 06 or even 05 Corps have in zero without Beta Piloted Cap ships?

2: Ignoring the potential for income generation, electronic warfare, tackling, and even straight-out damage dealing.

Answer: In otherwords serfs and cannon-fodder. Right!

3: funny, I never seem to get these lag problems that everybody always harps on about. Last time I was part of a lagfest was on the test server.

Answer: you must be in Iceland.

4: A starting character is quite capable of bringing down far older players, given the right equipment applied properly - there's a video out there of three starting characters in tech 1 frigates (two rifters and a Punisher) bringing down a Cyclone-class Battlecruiser.

Answer: One in a hundred and a good reason not to play drunk.

5: Funny, then, how all the minerals on the market were mined or gathered by players, all the ships and modules on the market were built by players, and how the tech 2 ships are sold at a colossal markup because that's what the people who sell them choose to do...

Answer: NPC buying and selling caps most of what you mention, insurance dictates the price of T1 ships, and don't even try to hold T2 up as good example because the limited supply of BPOs is the worst example of a non player driven economy.

6: Metagaming really isn't a requirement to success. There are hundreds of successful players out there who don't have an alt, for example. I'm one of them.

Answer: LOL...no nothing more, just LOL!

7: Yes, it is a game of great potential - potential that YOU, the player, have to go out and grab for yourself. Success, wealth and glory are yours for the taking, but you have to bloody well stand up and TAKE them in order to get them.

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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Answer: More LOL! You haven't been listening have you?

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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I have learned....

* that the playingfield is dominated by beta-players and that, short of fielding 1000 dedicated pilots, there is no mechanism to challenge that. (and after the Goons, I wonder if 1000 is enough?)

* that the only viable positions for newcomers in zero space are as cannon-fodder in service to the aforementioned beta-players. All else is foolishness and waste as it will soon be wiped away.

* that even when one accepts serfdom (rent anyone?) under one of the mighty Beta Empires.... there is nothing to be done because the combat is reduced to dissapointing lag-fests for victor and vanquished alike.

* that in trying to avoid the WOW grind through the skill tree, CCP has created a time sink that is worse than the grind. By the time I had trained the skills necessary for even a SUICIDE mission it was too late to even care.

* that the statement that the economy is "player driven" is a lie.

* that meta-gaming is a requirement for success in EVE and that CCP's official stance against it is nothing but a smokescreen to cover the fact that even their employees engage in it. (MS Messaging anyone?)

* that EVE is a game with great potential.... but it is still only just potential because little of the promise has actually been delivered (except possibly to employees and beta-pilots).

I gave EVE a year, because it was complex enough to require that much time to fairly assess. I even subscribed to it for another year when the level of metagaming and balance issues involved became clear and I hoped CCP would correct them. Unfortunately, with four or five months of subscription remaining, I STILL CAN'T FIND THE CHEESE, and this rat is worn out. Hope has now turned to educated disapppointment and I find myself playing other games more and EVE less. It's a shame really, because EVE's basic concept is great and appealling, but delivers no cheese.

And no, you can't have my stuff, so don't ask.
Fanboys and BetaBoys flame away now.....

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Originally by: Dr Fighter

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what?!??!

older players with more time in game are better off than newer ones!

ZOMG i cant belive it! Ive never been so far behind...

of course you wont catch the oldest players with the best implants, but players stop all the time, in 10 years form now there'll only be 1/4 of the high uber sp guys. Others with good isk from day one will catch upto those who play an average amount of time, and so on.

specialty is what eves about, concentrate in one area and you'll be good in 6 months decent in a year and uber in 2 years.

if you want to be great at everything, you can be in 2 years, spread accross a number of accounts of course.

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Originally by: Hayah Theos

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You are under the misguided impression that those characters ever leave the game when the player quits. They just get sold to the Beta Empires, further entrenching their position.

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Originally by: Le Skunk

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Originally by: Breytli Woelin

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...
That said, the OP is right on many points. It's almost impossible to do anything that isn't sanctioned by the major corps/alliances in this game. ...

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Well you got the one right on the head. The last attempt to break this rule (The Privateer Alliance) who specialized in countering the power grip of the big alliances was dealt with by CCP - thus restoring the old school tie club back frimly in the seats of power.

And im still bitter about it the meddling buggers

SKUNK

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Quote:

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CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic

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