| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Marie deMedici
   |
Posted - 2007.08.03 17:55:00 -
[1]
I have started a new fund with my alt (cora gallacio), which aims to provide low-risk ,low-cost investment opportunity for everyone.
EETF is a mutual fund based on buying a wide portfolio of mostly public low-risk stock.
The basic idea of the fund is to get dividends from low-risk stock and reinvest that immediately to get maximal profit. Some of the money is kept as cash to keep the fund liquid. Instead of paying dividends, all money is immediately reinvested and the value of a single share in EETF comes from a buy-back price which is updated periodically to reflect the NAV of each share. The fund sells at +3% of NAV and buys back at -3% NAV to cover costs like having to buy/sell stock.
There are 10M+1 outstanding shares , one is reserved to the CEO for tracking purposes. 10M are available to the public at a constantly updated price which started at 1000isk on corporation inception and now is at 1117isk. Target profit for a month is between 3-7% depending on which amount of the money is successfully invested during the period. Best profit is attained during calm periods, worst profit during large buy-ins or sell-outs.
Stock is available from either myself or cora gallacio, both usually reside in common in-game stock channels like egsex and resx. We are also in the process of listing the stock at either one or both of the stock exchanges.
News about the list can be received at the "EETF news" mailing list or "EETF" channel. Most current information is usually in the corp description and reports of stock buy/sell price are listed here.
We receive a right to take a management fee of 0.5% of the fund value for every profitable month.
Note that the fund is a stock fund and is still vulnerable to scams and risks of the stock owned.
|
Cora Gallacio
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 17:58:00 -
[2]
alt of marie, ceo of EETF
|
Block Ukx
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 18:27:00 -
[3]
Does this mean the fund NAV is 11.170 Bil?
Do you mind providing a list of shares currently owned by the Fund.
How often do you update the Fund NAV?
|
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 18:35:00 -
[4]
no, new shares are divided out as people buy into the fund and they are taken from distribution when they sell out. At the moment there are a bit over 200k shares out so there is ample room for new investors.
The NAV (actually buy/sell values) are updated when there is a major change in the value like incoming dividends or large stock buys/sells. This will at first be probably every two weeks but will soon move to every week or so.
|
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 18:36:00 -
[5]
As for the shares, I will not publish a list. At the moment maybe quarter of the money is in cash and 75% are in few listed companies with quite equal distributions.
|
SencneS
Amarr
Balsarferskratchin Inc
Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 18:37:00 -
[6]
I assume you're using the 3% above NAV compensate for lacking dividends in some shares?
And the way I understand it is, we buy the shares for +3% and you buy them back for -3% which means we are already 6% in the hole. What do you expect the monthly dividends to be?
----------------------------------
Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama! |
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 18:48:00 -
[7]
There are no monthly dividends. Everything will be reinvested.
As for the +-3% , it will be used to cover the costs of buying stock with the invested money and selling it. It also acts as a deterrent of too fast buy/sell cycling. Target profit for a month is between 3-7% , which obviously depends on how well the stock portfolio does. If a corp conks out or comes out as a scam, we might lose 10-30% of value overnight, but I try to keep a diverse portfolio of well known corps to limit that loss.
|
Fury Banker
Fury Bank
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 20:02:00 -
[8]
The projected profits seem rather low for a mutual fund. For a projected 3-7% return per month, people could:
1. Buy up ISS shares at below launch cost and get 5% per month indefinitely - but with no bail-out option.
2. Deposit it in Fury Bank and get nearly 6% per month with immediate withdrawal access and no surcharge on deposits/withdrawals.
3. Invest in well-established ventures like FIN-U and Ionia's offers - which beat the 7% maximum (but with restrictions on cash-outs).
4. Invest in one of the two decent-looking capital IPOs currently running (Wylker's and La Vista's) both of which aim to deliver well over 7%. Higher-risk than the others above (as no guaranteed return, no cash-out ability) but potentially higher gains.
There's a range of options already available - not quite sure what you're offering which isn't already available. Maybe you could explain which of the above 4 alternatives you see your offering as being a good alternative to?
The problems I see with a mutual fund are these:
1. The best investments (those routinely beating 10% profit per month) are already sold out - so you can't invest in those.
2. Most other investments return a very predictable % each month - meaning that there's just no knowledge edge a fund manager can apply to obtain better returns than an investor could by just buying up shares themselves. All you add is a 3% buy-in cost, a 3% buy-out cost and a 0.5% admin charge per month.
3. One of the advantages of Mutual Funds in RL is spreading risk. In Eve that really doesn't work - there's too few options available to spread the risk around widely. More importantly, yo uactually ADD risk - as there's now TWO ways investors can lose big time: your investments being a scam or YOU being a scam.
|
Pang Grohl
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 20:14:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Marie deMedici
As for the shares, I will not publish a list. At the moment maybe quarter of the money is in cash and 75% are in few listed companies with quite equal distributions.
No No No...
You need to tell us what you've invested in, otherwise you're all talk.
Like Fury Banker said, we know we can beat the performance of your fund already, so if you can't show that you're invested in something other than the usually characters, we have no reason to buy into your fund.
Si non adjuvas, noces
(If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Kilda Shepp
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 21:53:00 -
[10]
Here is an IPO you might have better luck in.
"Concord IPO"
Capital is used to purchase Ships, Mods, Ammo for the members of the corp. The members run missions and rat at a taxed rate of 50%. 10% of the corps TAX is kept to purchase more ships, mods, ammo etc. The remainder (45% of the total bounties) is paid in dividends. The corp employees Salvager's and Looters to perform the cleanup associated with these two tasks. They get 50% of the salvage and loot. Salvage is either sold or converted to rigs, good loot is sold, the rest is reprocessed.
Mission runners additional costs also includes negotiation skill to increase ISK from missions.
|
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 22:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Fury Banker
The projected profits seem rather low for a mutual fund. For a projected 3-7% return per month, people could:
1. Buy up ISS shares at below launch cost and get 5% per month indefinitely - but with no bail-out option.
2. Deposit it in Fury Bank and get nearly 6% per month with immediate withdrawal access and no surcharge on deposits/withdrawals.
3. Invest in well-established ventures like FIN-U and Ionia's offers - which beat the 7% maximum (but with restrictions on cash-outs).
4. Invest in one of the two decent-looking capital IPOs currently running (Wylker's and La Vista's) both of which aim to deliver well over 7%. Higher-risk than the others above (as no guaranteed return, no cash-out ability) but potentially higher gains.
Mutual funds always return less than direct stock investments because somebody else is doing the investing. But the whole point of a mutual fund is to distribute the risk. You get smaller profits, but you get less risk. In each of these cases you list they are running two risks, one that the investment will fail and one that it is a scam. My fund will limit the first risk and replace it with the possibility that I am a scammer. In the long run I will prove that I am not a scammer.
>There's a range of options already available - not quite sure what you're offering which isn't already available. Maybe you could explain >which of the above 4 alternatives you see your offering as being a good alternative to?
ISS is a good example of two kinds of risk,they had problems with their statiosn which hit the stock. This kind of risk will be mitigated. It is also easier for me to move investments to more profitable ones , than it is for each single investor to move their investments. For example one ISSO costs around 10M , so it would be difficult for one investor with 20M invested in isso to sell 25% of his ISSO.
I see this as a low-risk compared to stock , but potentially higher return than simple bank interest rate. For me this is just an experiment and you have to start somewhere building up your reputation.
>1. The best investments (those routinely beating 10% profit per month) are already sold out - so you can't invest in those.
I attempt to get into private investments too with a small cut of the fund.
>2. Most other investments return a very predictable % each month - meaning that there's just no knowledge edge a fund manager can apply to >obtain better returns than an investor could by just buying up shares themselves. All you add is a 3% buy-in cost, a 3% buy-out cost and a >0.5% admin charge per month.
If you buy shares from secondary market you will be adding a few percent of sales tax anyways. And this is aimed more at people who have extra cash which they dont want to actively invest, just like in real life. Not everybody is willing to do continuous direct stock investments , especially in this market.
>3. One of the advantages of Mutual Funds in RL is spreading risk. In Eve that really doesn't work - there's too few options available to >spread the risk around widely. More importantly, yo uactually ADD risk - as there's now TWO ways investors can lose big time: your >investments being a scam or YOU being a scam.
No, I alter risk. As you see from ISS there is a real investment risk here, not related to scamming.
and what comes to the +-3% that is actually paid to the fund, not me. I just take the 0.5% cut in profitable months. For now the first month has been profitable and I havent even taken that.
|
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 22:43:00 -
[12]
>You need to tell us what you've invested in, otherwise you're all talk.
I might later. I will first get this running and then ask the shareholders if they want to know. I prefer not reporting that part in public.
>Like Fury Banker said, we know we can beat the performance of your fund already, so if you can't show that you're invested in something other >than the usually characters, we have no reason to buy into your fund.
yes, i know you can beat the performance of my fund. Everybody probably can if they are willing to follow market discussions, analyze ipo's and get into investing. I am the lazy man's choice.
|
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 22:55:00 -
[13]
as for fury bank, i see the minimum deposit is 100M isk , we dont have a minimum.
|
Fury Banker
Fury Bank
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 23:34:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Fury Banker on 03/08/2007 23:37:58
Edited by: Fury Banker on 03/08/2007 23:35:00
Originally by: Marie deMedici
as for fury bank, i see the minimum deposit is 100M isk , we dont have a minimum.
If you want Joe Noobie investing his 53k ISK then you're welcome to him. I won't touch amounts less than 100mill ISK because my time could be better spent generating revenue for my shareholders than dealing with micro-transactions. Evn on a 100 mill ISK transaction I'm pretty much wasting my time - but I had to set a limit somewhere and chose that. Yep, it was an arbitrary cut-off point but aren't all such limits?
I've no objection IN PRINCIPLE to a mutual fund (I invested in Professor Bunsens' one). But he was promising (and delivered) returns above the usual 5-10% range. As I KNOW I'm totally reliable, I struggle to see why someone would invest in your schem for 3-7% return when I guarantee them 5.6% AND immediate withdrawal ability. Obviously you (and they) can't have the same confidence in me - but to the uninvilved individual I find it hard to see why they'd think you more reliable than me. And that's ignoring other offerings which give better return than me AND have a longer track record (though at the cost of limited cash-out).
Just what is it that you think you're offering that justifies investment in yourself rather than in Fury Bank (at 5.6% per month with total withdrawal freedom) or in FIN-U/Ionia's investmenst (at more than your maximum predicted return - albeit with limited cash-out)?
You seem (to me) to be asking investors to allow you to skim the cream off the top without any added value and without any guaranteees.
EDIT: Enough of being vague. If you were offering 10-15% per month (with a guaranteed minimum of 10%) then your offer would be attractive IF (and only if) investors trusted you. As it stands you're asking investors to accept no guarantees, have no structured buy-back AND take returns less than if they just bought shares in a number of already running enterprises. Why?
|
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.03 23:52:00 -
[15]
>Just what is it that you think you're offering that justifies investment in yourself rather than in Fury Bank (at 5.6% per month with total >withdrawal freedom) or in FIN-U/Ionia's investmenst (at more than your maximum predicted return - albeit with limited cash-out)?
>You seem (to me) to be asking investors to allow you to skim the cream off the top without any added value and without any guaranteees.
Well. I dont have a set limit like you do so I welcome investments in the 10-100M range too. I cant guarantee a profit since it is totally up to the stock i can invest in. It might also be higher than 7% if I find decent new private investment targets or new IPO's pop up.
>EDIT: Enough of being vague. If you were offering 10-15% per month (with a guaranteed minimum of 10%) then your offer would be attractive IF >(and only if) investors trusted you. As it stands you're asking investors to accept no guarantees, have no structured buy-back AND take >returns less than if they just bought shares in a number of already running enterprises. Why?
why? because I can? I cant offer 10-15% because this is just a stock fund. I dont generate the money, stock does. I can only provide what the stock provides. I have a structured buy back, I will always buy back at -3%NAV , there might be a short delay since I might have to cash in some shares, but I keep some of the money as cash or short investments to facilitate fast buybacks of small amounts of shares.
EETF is a way for someone willing to invest under 100M to get a wide portfolio and ok profit for his money. The profit will also be automatically reinvested so they dont have to worry about that. I see EETF as fitting in a niche between the big boys. As for the "cream" I skim off 0.5% isnt that much of a cream. Its more like it pays my eve-mail fees.
|
Fury Banker
Fury Bank
|
Posted - 2007.08.04 00:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Marie deMedici
>Just what is it that you think you're offering that justifies investment in yourself rather than in Fury Bank (at 5.6% per month with total >withdrawal freedom) or in FIN-U/Ionia's investmenst (at more than your maximum predicted return - albeit with limited cash-out)?
>You seem (to me) to be asking investors to allow you to skim the cream off the top without any added value and without any guaranteees.
Well. I dont have a set limit like you do so I welcome investments in the 10-100M range too. I cant guarantee a profit since it is totally up to the stock i can invest in. It might also be higher than 7% if I find decent new private investment targets or new IPO's pop up.
>EDIT: Enough of being vague. If you were offering 10-15% per month (with a guaranteed minimum of 10%) then your offer would be attractive IF >(and only if) investors trusted you. As it stands you're asking investors to accept no guarantees, have no structured buy-back AND take >returns less than if they just bought shares in a number of already running enterprises. Why?
why? because I can? I cant offer 10-15% because this is just a stock fund. I dont generate the money, stock does. I can only provide what the stock provides. I have a structured buy back, I will always buy back at -3%NAV , there might be a short delay since I might have to cash in some shares, but I keep some of the money as cash or short investments to facilitate fast buybacks of small amounts of shares.
EETF is a way for someone willing to invest under 100M to get a wide portfolio and ok profit for his money. The profit will also be automatically reinvested so they dont have to worry about that. I see EETF as fitting in a niche between the big boys. As for the "cream" I skim off 0.5% isnt that much of a cream. Its more like it pays my eve-mail fees.
That's fair enough - I'll happily admit that I won't personally touch deposits less than 100 million. If you're happy to get 100 investors depositing 1 million each then invest them in something like Fury Bank (oir the other listed alternatives) then I'm sure we're all appreciative of it. But it's going to take a LOT of tiny investments to raise the 10 bilion capital you've issued shares for.
Letm ebe plain: I'm not accusing you of scamming - I think you're probably genuine. But the amount of effort you'll have to put in to earn your 0.5% per month is huge for the minimal returns you'll get. I begrudge my shareholders what I pay them - and I get 2% plus per WEEK plus I own over half the shares in Fury Holdings. I struggle to see how you'll maintain enthusiasm after a few months of scraping less than 100 million per month even IF you get fully subscribed. You'd do far better trading than investing your ISK (and your investors') in IPOs.
On the bright side you can always just deposit yout ISK in Fury BAnk and get near the top end of your predicted 3-7% per month without any analysis or judgment needed. And therein lies the flaw in your proposed plan.
|
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.04 00:22:00 -
[17]
>That's fair enough - I'll happily admit that I won't personally touch deposits less than 100 million. If you're happy to get 100 investors >depositing 1 million each then invest them in something like Fury Bank (oir the other listed alternatives) then I'm sure we're all >appreciative >of it. But it's going to take a LOT of tiny investments to raise the 10 bilion capital you've issued shares for.
Well I will release the shares as i get capital in, but i dont really NEED that money. The 10M shares are just growth space.
>Letm ebe plain: I'm not accusing you of scamming - I think you're probably genuine. But the amount of effort you'll have to put in to earn >your 0.5% per month is huge for the minimal returns you'll get. I begrudge my shareholders what I pay them - and I get 2% plus per WEEK plus >I own over half the shares in Fury Holdings. I struggle to see how you'll maintain enthusiasm after a few months of scraping less than 100 >million per month even IF you get fully subscribed. You'd do far better trading than investing your ISK (and your investors') in IPOs.
Well yeah, I do this partly as an experiment, partly for fun. The 0.5% is just there to cover my direct costs. I have over 2B in the bank and i make hundreds of millions a month if I want to , so I do this just because I can. Maybe this will grow into something bigger maybe not. I also own most of the subscribed shares at the moment.
>On the bright side you can always just deposit yout ISK in Fury BAnk and get near the top end of your predicted 3-7% per month without any >analysis or judgment needed. And therein lies the flaw in your proposed plan.
Well yeah but then I would have to trust you wouldnt I ? ;) and remember that the predicted 3-7% per month is applicable for maybe a 2 month investment , since everything will be reinvested. With that rate a 1 year investment may bring up to 100% profit or even more , depending on how fast I can reinvest.
|
Fury Banker
Fury Bank
|
Posted - 2007.08.04 00:39:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Fury Banker on 04/08/2007 00:39:33
Originally by: Marie deMedici
Well yeah but then I would have to trust you wouldnt I ? ;)
But that's one of the weaknesses of what you're doing - any time you invest in someone else you have to trust them (ignoring spurious claims of "secured" BPOs which could be bypassed). As mentioned earlier, your shareholders not only have to trust that YOU arent a scam - but also that the companies you choose to invest in are also not scams. All that just to get what they could have got by just buying shares themselves (less your 0.5% per month admin charge and the buy-in/opt-out 3% fees).
I genuinely like your idea - the problem is that the game doesn't have the tools to support it (in ternms of security) and the player market isn't well enough developed to facilitate it (in terms of variety of shares). So you're stuck with investment either from your own friends and/or from people investing so little that noone else can be bothered to deal with them.
I seriously considered a scheme like yours myself - but abandoned the concept when I realised I couldn't offer any added value for my management fee. Soon as I started my own IPO the whole idea went out of the window anyway - as there's nothing on the market which gives the level of returns I can generate myself: hence buying anyone else's shares costs me ISK (in opportunity cost if nothing else).
Take a step back - and ask yourself a simple question: why would you invest your ISK in your own scheme (assuming you weren't running it and getting the management fee) rather than just buy into a reputable share offering? If you can't answer that question to yourself then you're accepting that your target market is marginal (to be generous).
Good luck anyway - but I just can't see how you'll attract decent sized investors. And there's just not a lot of small investors around. Bulk of my on investment comes from people who are either in my alliance and/or have known me in online gaming for years - Joe Public just isn't interested in investing in Eve.
|
Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
|
Posted - 2007.08.04 01:27:00 -
[19]
Furybanker, until you get a picture rather than an exclamation mark, I still feel trusting you could be dangerous. The EBANK won't have restrictions on the little guys as it is programmed to automatically handle deposits and to a point withdrawals. 
Need Empire Research Slots. Click here |
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.04 02:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ricdic
Furybanker, until you get a picture rather than an exclamation mark, I still feel trusting you could be dangerous. The EBANK won't have restrictions on the little guys as it is programmed to automatically handle deposits and to a point withdrawals.
Yeah the prob atm is that you can automate deposits but withdrawals only to the point of logging requests and matching them with paid amounts. Otherwise you would have to script the client. I wouldnt mind a sanctioned interface which would allow money/share transfers and some item transfers automatically via script.
|
Balogh
Gallente
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
|
Posted - 2007.08.04 20:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Marie deMedici
Originally by: Ricdic
Furybanker, until you get a picture rather than an exclamation mark, I still feel trusting you could be dangerous. The EBANK won't have restrictions on the little guys as it is programmed to automatically handle deposits and to a point withdrawals.
Yeah the prob atm is that you can automate deposits but withdrawals only to the point of logging requests and matching them with paid amounts. Otherwise you would have to script the client. I wouldnt mind a sanctioned interface which would allow money/share transfers and some item transfers automatically via script.
Oh, I would love such an interface!
______________________________
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
Fury Banker
Fury Bank
|
Posted - 2007.08.04 21:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ricdic
Furybanker, until you get a picture rather than an exclamation mark, I still feel trusting you could be dangerous. The EBANK won't have restrictions on the little guys as it is programmed to automatically handle deposits and to a point withdrawals.
Sounds like you have a nice tool in development.
Not sure what relevance me having an exclamation mark rather than a picture has: I've identified my other characters in both the Fury Bank thread and the Fury Holdings IPO. If I were to post with, say, FastLearner would I suddenly be more trustworthy because I used a character who had a portrait on the forums?
If I hadn't identified my other characters then obviously you'd have a point.
|
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises
Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.08.07 18:12:00 -
[23]
a mutual fund can do more than just buy some shares and collect divs.
a mutual fund, especially if being the lazy man's liason, should be looking for good deals on stocks, buying at below cost, selling when the money to be made exceeds div projections for the foreseeable future, etc.
so even if stocks are only giving 7-10%ish, you COULD be making more than that with some savvy trading.
have there been any previous mutual funds that have given great divs, prior to this venture? i know emfi seems to be closing their doors and it was pretty massive.
if you've got a lot of isk to barter with, you could also always talk to some of the bigger stock-issuers and see if you could get a deal.
just throwing a couple of ideas out there, mainly because anything under 10% isn't that great sounding. |
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.08 23:08:00 -
[24]
Yes I will try getting into getting good deals on stock, but that is quite uncertain business. It would be wrong of me to promise over 10% and then not deliver it. It is far better to set a target, stay inside it and maybe exceed it sometimes.
The difficultpart is that in eve the stock market isnt that liquid so it is quite difficult to just buy or sell something. Ofcourse if the situation presents itself , i will. The thing is that the spread between buy/sell is so huge in egse/resx usually that even if you see that the stock is over/undervalued, it is difficult to utilize it because of the spread.
|
Cora Gallacio
|
Posted - 2007.08.18 18:47:00 -
[25]
prices have been updated
we buy now at 1079 per share
we sell now at 1145 per share
|
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises
Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.08.18 22:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cora Gallacio
prices have been updated
we buy now at 1079 per share
we sell now at 1145 per share
around how many shares outstanding/for sale still?
also, (i may have missed it, or misread) when is the first div due? and i'm assuming monthly divs?
thanks in advance. |
Cora Gallacio
|
Posted - 2007.08.19 10:18:00 -
[27]
Since its a fund we have as many shares to sell as people will buy. I will probably limit sales if I have trouble investing the cash I already have. As for dividends (yes, you missed it) , we dont give out dividends. Instead everything is reinvested as fast as possible to get maximum profit and if you want your money out , you will have to sell the shares. That is why we have the buyback program and that is why we are in the process of listing to RESX.
|
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.19 10:20:00 -
[28]
As for shares in the public , we have little less than 250k shares in circulation. (which means our NAV is around 250M)
|
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises
Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.08.19 16:15:00 -
[29]
cool, i appreciate the replies. I'll shoot over some isk when i get home. The more publicly traded corps, the better for the overall market! |
Marie deMedici
|
Posted - 2007.08.19 17:53:00 -
[30]
cool, either toss the money to marie, or send her atleast and eve-mail and you will get faster service since she is my main.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |