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Remote Sensor Dampener Change Proposal

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Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.06 12:24:00 - [61] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/08/2007 12:26:14 Originally by: Dr Fighter i hav gang mates, i damp they do other nasty EW type stuff, we do it all, rather than a fleet of everyone using damps like people are totally blowing out of all proportion. The curse has a bonus for TDs, wouldn't it make with that argumentation more sense then to use TDs than damps if you want to use multiple forms of EW? Quote: yeah i like to be able to add some dmg into the mix, besides like i sed i gang freinds, im not a solo killer whining about his precious damps, also i do use other setup and other ships and other EW. If you have gangmates why do you need damage?
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2007.08.06 12:32:00 - [62] more than one curse perhaps? anyway im not planning to go into to much detail of my gangs etc. its the fact that damps are fine as they are, except against capitals - that much i do agree with, i even offered some solutions unlike you whos more intent on picking apart my posts peice by peice
MaidMarion FarCry Inc Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.06 12:45:00 - [63] yes, please nerf RSDs, I almost lost my falcon to a nano curse =)
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.06 12:45:00 - [64] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/08/2007 12:45:21 Exept, that as shown already, its counter does not work. No amount of SB2, skills or rigs will bring a target back to at least 24k locking range against 4 damps from a maxxed damp spec ship. Neither will, contrary what you claim, 1 SB2 help you against 4 damps from a nondampspecced ship without rigs. Or that it works better on nonspecced ships than ECM on specced ships at sniper ranges.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:41:00 - [65] Then, it would seem the problem is in the new rigs, that make it now possible to damp more than ever before. Solution is simple, remove the EW efficiency rigs. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:57:00 - [66] Still does not work. Without damp rigs we have instead 134k base range needed to "counter" (in terms of getting 24k locking range) 4 damps of a specced ship with 5 t2 sensorboosters 88k base locking range. To repeat: base. Yay, the scorp and the rokh can still lock targets within 24k if they fit 5 of their meds with sensorboosters.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:03:00 - [67] Originally by: Dr Fighter damps are fine, you need 3-4 on a target to shut it down... imagine if that was ecm. really they are fine. Your point is? 3-4 Damps are significantly more effective than 3-4 ECM modules at shutting a target down. I think its a great idea personally. It isn't a particuarly severe nerf. The Gallente dampening platforms could be excluded from its effect..
Jonny Magellan Amarr Edyta Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:22:00 - [68] I would just increase the stacking penalty a bunch if I was balancing this since the problem is people using a full hand of damps.
maarud Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:31:00 - [69] If you want to do anything, reduce the optimal, but increase the falloff. Damps are not 100% in falloff, so it gives it that "chance" factor. But otherwise there is nothing wrong with damps imho, 4 damp for 1 ship. ECM only needs 1 per ship, but it has the chance factor. Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Ashaz Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:32:00 - [70] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 06/08/2007 12:45:21 Exept, that as shown already, its counter does not work. No amount of SB2, skills or rigs will bring a target back to at least 24k locking range against 4 damps from a maxxed damp spec ship. Neither will, contrary what you claim, 1 SB2 help you against 4 damps from a nondampspecced ship without rigs. Or that it works better on nonspecced ships than ECM on specced ships at sniper ranges. Completely pointless arguments since the dampner speced ships have a bonus to scrambler range. But for all non dampner speced ships, it's a totaly different matter. I have almost maxed dampner skills (lvl 4) and a boosted BS will target me at 23 km. Tested VS a Domi FYI. iDrone
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.06 17:16:00 - [71] Originally by: maarud If you want to do anything, reduce the optimal, but increase the falloff. Damps are not 100% in falloff, so it gives it that "chance" factor. That would work, too. Quote: But otherwise there is nothing wrong with damps imho, 4 damp for 1 ship. ECM only needs 1 per ship, but it has the chance factor. The thing is you do not really need 4. 2 damps on an unspecced ship will reduce any BS but the scorp and rokh without booster to below 20k (scrop and rokh will be at 20.5k). 3 will reduce again all with 1 SB2 but the scorp and rokh (which will be at 21.5k) to below 20k (again). You only need 4 when a target is using 2 SB2 which is rare outside sniper fittings. And a damp specced ship need 2 damps for 0 and 1 SB BSs, 3 for 2 SB2 BS and 4 against 3+ SB2 BS. ECM does not "need" one, it has the chance to need one. This is a significant difference. Considering you have about a 50% chance with the right racial you need per BS on average 2, which is not different what a damp ship needs.
goomba freehand A Black Knight Corp FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.06 23:31:00 - [72] do you people no tunderstand that there are many ways to counter rsds. you can mwd away cause trust me a rsd ship is going to stay far away or you can launch your drones or if you are in low sec or 0.0 have freinds around. stop crying and man up and learn it is a game so adapt and over come instead of crying and killing the game for the rest of us. I fly a celestis with max skills and it takes 3 damps to shut down a ship so guess what the other enemies can still pod me do i get mad and say nerf guns no i adapt and go well thats the game. if you are in a gang and get primaried guess what you will go pop so dont cry get a new ship and have fun
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.07 00:40:00 - [73] Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 07/08/2007 00:41:04 The obvious solution here, is to apply CCP's Nos approach to RSD's. If the attacking ship has a weaker on-board sensor than the victim ship, ie, Frigate engages Battleship, the Frigate's RSD module will average the ranges and lock-times of the Frigate and Battleship together. This will weaken the Battleship's sensors and strengthen the Frigate's. If the attacking ship has a stronger on-board sensor than the victim ship, ie, Battleship engages Frigate, the RSD will be ineffective. did i do this rite
Captain Sonata	Posted - 2007.08.07 01:25:00 - [74] Edited by: Captain Sonata on 07/08/2007 01:26:30 The **** am I gonna do with a Carcal now? No seriously, it has nothing going for it if the RSD go away. I like the idea anyways.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2007.08.07 01:34:00 - [75] Lvx, i dont like that idea at all the nos nerf makes some sense in a game technical way and also ballence. a damp is a peice of kit that interfears with the sensors reducing their effectiveness by a percentage, now if anything a bigger ship with more power should be able to damp more effectivly if anything.
General Coochie New Justice Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.07 10:46:00 - [76] Originally by: LvxOccvlta Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 07/08/2007 00:41:04 The obvious solution here, is to apply CCP's Nos approach to RSD's. If the attacking ship has a weaker on-board sensor than the victim ship, ie, Frigate engages Battleship, the Frigate's RSD module will average the ranges and lock-times of the Frigate and Battleship together. This will weaken the Battleship's sensors and strengthen the Frigate's. If the attacking ship has a stronger on-board sensor than the victim ship, ie, Battleship engages Frigate, the RSD will be ineffective. did i do this rite No because that would make the specialized gallente recons useless Signature removed - please reduce your signature graphic height to less than 120 pixels - Jacques([email protected])
Vardemis Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.08.07 11:05:00 - [77] Originally by: Nietarr The Problem: Currently, RSD's do not have an effective counter. Sensor boosters are limited by the 250 KM targetting range limitation and we've seen the math on how one RSD II against one ship with a Sensor Booster II still reduces the defending ship's abilities even without considering signal suppression skill or ship bonuses. This is particularly annoying for capital ship pilots who can be dampened to complete uselessness by one tech I frigate. RSDs have effective countermeasures, Sensor Booster and Remote Sensor Booster and with a limited effectiveness even Signal Amplifier. The 250km targeting range is an overall cap, you can still use the above mentioned countermeasures to reduce the effectiveness of damps. You have skills to increase targeting speed (signature analysis) and targeting range (long range targeting) so there is nothing wrong with signal suppression to increase the effectiveness of RSDs. One frigate cannot shut down a carrier with remote sensor damps if the carrier pilot knows how to fit the ship. If the frigate fits RSDs only it will not have the targeting range to be out of your targeting range if you are boosted at least a bit, if the frigate does use other modules in the medium slots it will be even less efficient interfering with your sensors. It is your fault if you do not prepare yourself for possible electronic warfare. It is just as stupid as saying: 'I don't need a warp disruptor, my opponent will fight to his death for sure.' If you are not prepared or cannot adapt, you die, whining will not help even the slightest bit. I am willing to bet that if RSDs get nerfed you will be here on the same forum whining about something else you cannot handle and so on and so forth. Originally by: Nietarr [...]but remember capitals live and die by their cap recharge.[..] And this just shows how little you know.
Cleric JohnPreston	Posted - 2007.08.07 11:12:00 - [78] im awesomely sick of these types of threads, can you guys ( OP ) just get on with and stop ******* whinging about every aspect of the game.WTF is next after Damps. Soon eve will be soo dumbed down it`ll be like WOW.
Stelteck Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.07 11:36:00 - [79] The problem is not that the RSD is two powerfull, the problem is that there is no effective counter measure. I once do a test in a tempest with 4 SB T2, and be damped by an arazu with 3 RSD. Lock range reduced to 21km..... Sensor booster do not work as counter. A way to protect a ship from RSB is needed, like ECCM protect a ship from ECM. Stelteck.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.07 11:41:00 - [80] Edited by: Shevar on 07/08/2007 11:43:34 Originally by: Stelteck The problem is not that the RSD is two powerfull, the problem is that there is no effective counter measure. I once do a test in a tempest with 4 SB T2, and be damped by an arazu with 3 RSD. Lock range reduced to 21km..... Sensor booster do not work as counter. A way to protect a ship from RSB is needed, like ECCM protect a ship from ECM. Stelteck. This I can agree with a lot more then just outright nerfing sensor damps. For example fitting 3 unbonussed sensorboosters should give you enough bonusses to counter the negative effects of 3 unbonused damps. Another option would be ofcourse to revamp ECM again so it is as good as sensordamps currently are. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Ashaz Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.08.07 11:42:00 - [81] Originally by: Cleric JohnPreston im awesomely sick of these types of threads, can you guys ( OP ) just get on with and stop ******* whinging about every aspect of the game.WTF is next after Damps. Soon eve will be soo dumbed down it`ll be like WOW. Quoted for truth. all these people should just try running a dampner fit themselves, and i will gladly show them how to counter it. I bet they cried "Ners paper" when they played rock paper cissors. iDrone
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2007.08.07 12:39:00 - [82] One more observation I would like to share without getting to much entangled in this NERF/DONT NERF thread: Yes, there are skills and rigs that make RSD ridiculously strong - but also as many skills and rigs to counter! Of course, if you want to use your rig slots for tanking you become vulnerable to someone investing these slots into dampener strength. But guess what, he is now more vulnerable to gank than you are! Now, he might kill your ship (if he can break the tank) because you have no friends nearby nor FOF missiles with you. But around the next corner he dies horribly to someone else who has. I understand that the module itself might be unbalanced, but please, please, please, dont mix in the skills just to fancy your numbers!
Sirius Problem Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.07 14:44:00 - [83] Edited by: Sirius Problem on 07/08/2007 14:45:14 Originally by: Cleric JohnPreston im awesomely sick of these types of threads, can you guys ( OP ) just get on with and stop ***** whining about every aspect of the game.WTF is next after Damps. What's next? Well, warp scrams/disruptors of course. The group known as Nullify Everything to Restore Fairness (NERF)**, is systematically going down the list of mods, in alphabetical order, to determine which ones are "overpowered". ECM, NOS, RSD, Warp Scrams, etc. NERF's agenda is to find all the modules in Eve that make PvP fun and interesting, oops... I mean difficult and dangerous, and "balance" them so that no matter what ship you fly and what ship you encounter, you both have a 50-50 shot at winning the battle. In NERF's view, this will make the game much more enjoyable for everyone, and in the long run, will actually reduce forum whining. Personally, I do not support NERF's views nor agenda because they often attempt to bolster their arguments with unrealistic scenarios, flawed suppositions, misrepresentation, and falsehoods. PS. Damps are fine. Learn to play. ---- Some people say I have a bad attitude. Those people are stupid.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2007.08.07 15:51:00 - [84] Originally by: Stelteck The problem is not that the RSD is two powerfull, the problem is that there is no effective counter measure. I once do a test in a tempest with 4 SB T2, and be damped by an arazu with 3 RSD. Lock range reduced to 21km..... Sensor booster do not work as counter. A way to protect a ship from RSB is needed, like ECCM protect a ship from ECM. Stelteck. oh this is just getting silly. The RSD is being countered you hava 21km lock range not a 5km lock range. Take for example the Crucifier and its bonus to tracking disrupters, its uses two tracking disrupters on you and you hav a tracking computer or two on a cruiser. But oh noes he can disrupt your weapons and then OMG FLY TOO FAST FOR YOUR GUNS TO TRACK! erm guys WORKING AS INTENTED holy hell are you completely stupid or waht?!?!? nerf tracking disrupters, he can disrupt me and then use hes supiror spped to out run my turrets tracking speed, nerf the TDs and the speed of ships that use then my gunzors are teh usless ness! /o\ grow up people and get some gang mates!
Trojanman190 Caldari Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.07 16:08:00 - [85] This is kind of a cool idea, but couldn't a damp ship fit an eccm to boost its own damp strength? I do like the idea of finding another use for sensor strength / eccms. Right now eccms are a wasted slot unless you just happen to find a dude with ecm, which after the crazy nerf hammer, not many people fit. maybe take it a step further and say that ECCM boosts ALL offsenive ewar, but also protects against ALL ewar. I guess target painters would be an exception since they have nothing to do with sensors anyways. So... eccm makes jammers, damps, and trackings disruptors more powerful, but ships can fit them to be better protected against them. So.. the eccm is still an ewar module with no use outside of ewar... but it would make more sense to fit one because a situation it would be used in would be more likely to arise.
PathetiQ Gallente The Rat Pack	Posted - 2007.08.07 17:46:00 - [86] And another useless nerf thread! RSD are fine, k thx!
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.07 18:31:00 - [87] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 07/08/2007 18:33:29 Originally by: VanNostrum Originally by: Dr Fighter Edited by: Dr Fighter on 06/08/2007 04:14:00 Originally by: VanNostrum Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: VanNostrum a webbed target can still fight a nossed target can still fight (unless amarr) tracking disrupters useless vs missile & drone ships 3 target painters increases sig radius by around 100% (hardly a big moon) ecm are chance based and if not 3-4 of them are used they're useless And dampeners are near useless unless you can dictate range. You forgot that one. that is nonsense, as it is not related to the suggestion in original post a frig with a rsd can increase lock time of a BS which already would have long time to lock suggestion in OP is that sensor dampeners power should be related to sensor strength of the ship that is using it, so a simple frig would not be immune to a BS for such a long time so dictating range is unrelated dude, the module in question reduces targeting range, how the hell can dictating range not be a main part of it. damps actually need twice as many to be as effective as the other types. If damps get nerffed so that its no more than 75% less range at max, people would either still use them just stay further away, or mix EW types. 2x tracking disrupters and two ECM isnt uncommon. messing with damps will just lead to people using other EW all together, and i thikn the main piont for them not to be touched is the amount of slots a player gives up for that. EDIT: anyone else having to log in a few times in a row before actually being able to post, the forum monster ate my text first time round! dude, will you please read the OP!? it is about a frig with 3-4 RSD rendering a capital ship useless it is about making RSD strength related to ship's sensor strength so smaller ships don't be that adventageous with this module over bigger ships Its a nutty line of reasoning ,said frigate gets the same damp bonus as the T1/T2 cruisers that damp. And be really carefull what you ask for : T2 ships have high sensor str and frigs just need to fit 1 ECCM to be dangerous again. Also I bet I'm gonna hear the turret users scream as every1 scrambles for TD once RSD been nerfedas well.
Hamurabi	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:07:00 - [88] Originally by: Sirius Problem Edited by: Sirius Problem on 07/08/2007 14:45:14 Originally by: Cleric JohnPreston im awesomely sick of these types of threads, can you guys ( OP ) just get on with and stop ***** whining about every aspect of the game.WTF is next after Damps. What's next? Well, warp scrams/disruptors of course. The group known as Nullify Everything to Restore Fairness (NERF)**, is systematically going down the list of mods, in alphabetical order, to determine which ones are "overpowered". ECM, NOS, RSD, Warp Scrams, etc. NERF's agenda is to find all the modules in Eve that make PvP fun and interesting, oops... I mean difficult and dangerous, and "balance" them so that no matter what ship you fly and what ship you encounter, you both have a 50-50 shot at winning the battle. In NERF's view, this will make the game much more enjoyable for everyone, and in the long run, will actually reduce forum whining. Personally, I do not support NERF's views nor agenda because they often attempt to bolster their arguments with unrealistic scenarios, flawed suppositions, misrepresentation, and falsehoods. PS. Damps are fine. Learn to play. this will however lead to less forum whining as it is directly related to number of people playing
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:21:00 - [89] NERF will never reduce forum whining because they will be stepping on the feet of the LTP (Learn to Play) community. The LTP community will whine about something (Caldari atm since they were nerfed later than most races thus way more ppl play them) and the great cycle of forum whining begins anew. Quite frankly stfu about RSD's. They do not nullify your ability to fight back like ECM does, and the counter skills and modules you need are basically REQUIRED for PvP REGARDLESS if your damped or not, so RSD's have a disadvantage in that field as well. I have never seen less than 3-4 damps do anything significant to a battle, and MOST ships (there ARE more ships than the curse/pilgrim) require those mid slots for other things. aka stfu about rsd's just because Mr. NOS in his whinewagon curse (whinewagon in that it is constantly part of someones whine, directly or indirectly...kind of like the dominix and myrmidon) killed your ship in a gatecamp. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Tu Madre	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:28:00 - [90] Realise that you cant win all fights and there is not always a counter to everything that comes against you - and that no one can possibly fit a counter to all situations - heres a novel idea, why dont you just fly away and find another fight if you find yourself damped to hell? found yourself set upon by multiple opponents? well you could always bring some guys of your own to help out. the risks of flying solo are that you can only fit counters for a very limited number of situations and we all know that the best counter is to stay out of said situation. whats the counter for a dictor bubble? scanning/scouting speed and getting the hell out. whats the counter for getting damped to all oblivion? speed and intel and perhaps just getting the hell out of there. bringing a few friends with you helps too. Also realise that those fitting dampers cant damp everyone at the same time and that juast by being damped you are taking up all of that persons resources and that your gang members are not having the same problem (i do however think that its not unreasonable to to have a message "Cronose sage begins to sensor damp Nietarr" i think this would help the situation al lot just knowing who was doing it would counter a lot) as a manticore pilot i am primarily concerend with taking out frigs/inties. the only way i can get an inti close enough to web - which is currently the only way to down one with cruise missiles - is to use a damper or two to either get him close or convince him to F off. i would be saddened if dampers were nerfed just because certain players could not employ the counters already in the game . the counter to RSD's is not another module or a nerf but in preparedness and strategy - in an area where you come up agianst the same pilots over and over you get an idea of how they fit from previous engagments - live and learn lads live and learn. you may go down one day to the unexpected but if you go down the same way twice well i think that says a bit more about you than it does the game. adapt and survive.

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