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Grey Area
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Posted - 2004.02.02 10:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Grey Area on 02/02/2004 10:57:24
I didn't want to add this to the other post about nerfed agent rewards, and it IS a slightly different topic.
It's this comment that agent missions offer little or no risk. First, there's a post on here about "scenario missions can be traps". No surprise there, pirates have always been good at figuring out places where 1. people need to be and 2. it's okay to shoot at them.
But, my real point is that the new patch contains yet ANOTHER stealth nerf. I have a Caldari agent, and since patch I have been given about half a dozen missions to destroy Gallente ships. I never had ONE mission of this type before the patch. This means my rating with Gallente is starting to spiral downwards fairly rapidly, I assume to a point where any Gallente ship I see is going to shoot me on sight - hardly "little or no risk".
As far as I can see the problem with this latest patch is that it has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. People exploiting agents by cancelling missions until they got an implant were making loads of money, but now everyone has to pay the price. Instead of fixing the cause of the problem, CCP have used another problem to counter it. Worse than that, they have made several separate changes, any one of which alone would counter the "high" (sic) rewards, but taken together have overdone things entirely.
1. ISK rewards lowered across the board
2. Travel times increased
3. Bonus rewards mineral content devalued
4. Standing increases reduced
5. More "negative standings effect" missions
6. Drops from NPC's in kill missions devalued
You can also add to this;
7. Original problem with "implant farming" NOT resolved!
Has anyone at CCP realised this? If it carries on this way, the professional mission runner is likely to become extinct.
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* I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. *
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Kerosene
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Posted - 2004.02.02 11:24:00 -
[2]
um.. I've had a fair few 'kill a gallente' missions before the patch for my Caldari agent. I guess it's just bad luck you haven't.
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Soilent
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Posted - 2004.02.02 11:40:00 -
[3]
My gallente faction is rapidly approaching the -2.0 mark as I've had to kill a large number of gallente ships over the weeks.
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Newbie for life! |
Grey Area
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Posted - 2004.02.02 11:51:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Grey Area on 02/02/2004 11:53:20
OK, must just be bad timing. Amazing considering the number of missions I do. Oh well, strike point five from the list - it still means the last patch was a real nerf-o-rama for agent missions.
Re solving the agent/implant farming, another thread suggested a delay in new missions if the last mission was refused. I think it needs to be a little bit cleverer than that. There will be the odd mission that a genuine "agent slave" will refuse (me for instance - no way I could take on Zor) and a high standing should not pay the price for that so much.
Much simpler to say that high value reward missions are only given out to those with a minimum success ratio (including those rejected and those failed) with that agent.
Personally I'd set two barriers - personal standing not less than 6.00 (quite and investment to achieve under the new system) and minimum of 85% total success rate with that particular agent. After that it could be as random as it is now.
Another point I agree with is that the bonus should not be stated as it is now before the mission. You'd do the mission for the reward, the bonus is exactly that - a bonus. You shouldn't even know you're getting it until after you've done the mission.
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* I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. *
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Psychic Sue
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Posted - 2004.02.02 12:39:00 -
[5]
Important missions for the Caldari had a derieved negative standing towards gallente all the time and vice versa. no need to complain about, its the background you are glancing at now.
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.02.02 16:21:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Papa Smurf on 02/02/2004 16:22:21
 Quote:
1. ISK rewards lowered across the board
It has been decided to raise the agent mission rewards ASAP to counter the balancing. The mission rewards were at least much closer to being fair in Castor before CP3, inspite of them not being as intended by The Powers That Be.
Quote:
2. Travel times increased
As far as I can tell in the DB, actual mission-related travel time has increased by less than 10%. I'll counter that as well in the increase of rewards.
Quote:
3. Bonus rewards mineral content devalued
This won't be countered especially, although hopefully the general raise should be sufficient to cover a large part of the difference. The mineral content was incorrectly configged, and that's that.
Quote:
4. Standing increases reduced
Standing increases will go up to counter the increase in travel time, but no more than that.
Quote:
5. More "negative standings effect" missions
As stated by other people here, this was probably just the luck of the die roll you were noticing.
Quote:
6. Drops from NPC's in kill missions devalued
This is quite simply incorrect. The only change related to drops is that the exploitable implant dropping Zor is removed.
Quote:
7. Original problem with "implant farming" NOT resolved!
The implant mission will now be an "important mission", and should be immune to farming.
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Northrend
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Posted - 2004.02.02 16:40:00 -
[7]
You know what I love as much as playing Eve  Checking the forums and realizing that Papa Smurf responds to the community on such a hotly debated subject with good news: PRICELESS  
Thanks m8
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Asharee Intrefer
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Posted - 2004.02.02 16:42:00 -
[8]
I can't complain about the re-balancing in that post. Thanks for being informative, Papa Smurf. 
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Cristobal
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Posted - 2004.02.02 17:08:00 -
[9]
It is really great to know that once in awhile our voices are heard.
Thank you PapaSmurf....
-- C r i s t o b a l --
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Judicator
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Posted - 2004.02.02 17:23:00 -
[10]
Pats his agent lightly on the head...
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Wraeththu
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Posted - 2004.02.02 17:35:00 -
[11]
Quote:
The implant mission will now be an "important mission", and should be immune to farming.
Thanks Papa, but unless you change the system on how IM's are handed out, it just means that instead of their being 2 missions people might accept, now it's just rejecting till you get an IM.
--
TomB: End the speed-race. 1 propulsion mod allowed, make turrets affect ship attributes like +speed/+ab speed +agil for progressivly smaller/lighter turrets, -speed/-ab speed -agil for long-range. |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.02.02 17:51:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 02/02/2004 17:55:02
Edited by: Harisdrop on 02/02/2004 17:53:19
Wrae important missions are given out more when you have a high standing. So true you can farm but not as much as you and SJ have been doing. Prices will raise above 8mill again.
Note:"Standing increases will go up to counter the increase in travel time, but no more than that." So if you cancel long trips you get hit more.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.02 17:56:00 -
[13]
Edited by: j0sephine on 02/02/2004 18:01:30
"Wrae important missions are given out more when you have a high standing. So true you can farm but not as much as you and SJ have been doing. Prices will raise above 8mill again."
... Apparently the devs' idea of "high standings" differs, though:
"I had an agent at -4 that begs to differ. I have her back to -1.2 now, and she even gives me IMs and such."
(really starting to think that delay timer based on amount of recently rejected missions would be a good idea :/
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Wraeththu
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Posted - 2004.02.02 18:03:00 -
[14]
Quote:
"I had an agent at -4 that begs to differ. I have her back to -1.2 now, and she even gives me IMs and such."
Yeah. I got that on friday night while I was looking for science graduates at the Fed Academy. I was astoundingly surprised.
--
TomB: End the speed-race. 1 propulsion mod allowed, make turrets affect ship attributes like +speed/+ab speed +agil for progressivly smaller/lighter turrets, -speed/-ab speed -agil for long-range. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.02 18:08:00 -
[15]
"Yeah. I got that on friday night while I was looking for science graduates at the Fed Academy. I was astoundingly surprised."
If i remember right, there's a 'hax-fix' currently in game, which is to ensure you get important mission every 15-20 of them, as long as you keep working for one agent only.
Would guess the 'hax' doesn't take agent standings into account or something ^^;
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Viduus
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Posted - 2004.02.02 18:26:00 -
[16]
Papa Smurf, thanks once again for your solidly posted information.
Another question I'd like to ask though is regarding Effective Quality (raises due to negotiations) NOT actually raising pay.
I know that the EQ does go up as a fact, however there is absolutely no discernable difference in mission rewards from an EQ of 23 to an EQ of 36; this I DO know as fact, both from taking personal note of rewards paid for identical missions/jumpcount, and from comparing notes with fellow corpmates/runners.
* Public Channel: NEA * |
Rancid Mare
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Posted - 2004.02.02 19:05:00 -
[17]
credit to Papa Smurf...
seems whilst they all got ears, only papa smurf is able to listen.
looking forward to the fix's
Rancid Mare of the EveMarshals.
Our Webby
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Pavel Covaci
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Posted - 2004.02.02 20:31:00 -
[18]
Quote:
If i remember right, there's a 'hax-fix' currently in game, which is to ensure you get important mission every 15-20 of them, as long as you keep working for one agent only.
This just isn't true. In the last three weeks I went through over 100 missions with my level 3 CreoDron agent (including the ~25% I rejected) without getting a single important mission.
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Stradivarious Hawke
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Posted - 2004.02.03 08:40:00 -
[19]
Quote:
This is quite simply incorrect. The only change related to drops is that the exploitable implant dropping Zor is removed.
I have never received a mission involving this gentleman so far but I've heard it was possible to to get standard implants as part of his loot.
Now, if that's true, what will happen with these standard implants ?
A few select and lucky folks will be the only owners or are there other sources of such implants ?
Thanks
Nemo me impune lacessit |
Cirle
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Posted - 2004.02.03 08:57:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Quote:
This is quite simply incorrect. The only change related to drops is that the exploitable implant dropping Zor is removed.
I have never received a mission involving this gentleman so far but I've heard it was possible to to get standard implants as part of his loot.
Now, if that's true, what will happen with these standard implants ?
Hopefully what is meant is that if you warp out and in again, having killed Zor but left the escorts, then Zor does not respawn, which will be a good thing for missions in general. When we did this one last night we had to warp out once, having killed the escorts, and when we came back they were still dead, so fingers crossed it is the case, in which case you will still be able to get the implant.
Why a Raven which was not firing guns dropped a laser is beyond me though, but Gurristas in general seem to prefer lasers to rails. Maybe they read the forums and listen to Jim?
Cirle |
Kristie
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Posted - 2004.02.03 09:21:00 -
[21]
Papa Smurf: You are the most attentive dev in the whole of Eve...and you also take the time to talk to the players. Thank you for responding to a type of thread that wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in h*ll of being replied to in about any other area of the forum.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Kristie. |
Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.02.03 09:22:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Edited by: j0sephine on 02/02/2004 18:01:30
"Wrae important missions are given out more when you have a high standing. So true you can farm but not as much as you and SJ have been doing. Prices will raise above 8mill again."
... Apparently the devs' idea of "high standings" differs, though:
"I had an agent at -4 that begs to differ. I have her back to -1.2 now, and she even gives me IMs and such."
(really starting to think that delay timer based on amount of recently rejected missions would be a good idea :/
So long as you can actually talk to the agent, you will get IM's, just less frequently.
Declining missions shouldn't do you any good for important missions however, as each decline adds two missions until you get offered one. That being said, I'm pretty sure there was a bug in there that made it possible to get around that. I think it's fixed now though.
I'll also pop in a cruel twist of fate for people with negative agent->char standing to counter the "beg to differ" issue.
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.02.03 09:30:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Papa Smurf, thanks once again for your solidly posted information.
Another question I'd like to ask though is regarding Effective Quality (raises due to negotiations) NOT actually raising pay.
I know that the EQ does go up as a fact, however there is absolutely no discernable difference in mission rewards from an EQ of 23 to an EQ of 36; this I DO know as fact, both from taking personal note of rewards paid for identical missions/jumpcount, and from comparing notes with fellow corpmates/runners.
The random factor on rewards is sufficiently high that you'd have to do a serious number of identical missions to be able to prove/disprove this.
Same mission, same level, same EQ, probably at least 20 missions. Compare to a different level + vastly different EQ for the same mission, again probably at least 20 missions. Please compare only the same reward types (such as ISK).
We've double checked it. It's working, but feel free to disprove it scientifically. We double checked both with and without the random factor. It's really hard to prove it with the random factor in place.
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.02.03 09:47:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Quote:
If i remember right, there's a 'hax-fix' currently in game, which is to ensure you get important mission every 15-20 of them, as long as you keep working for one agent only.
This just isn't true. In the last three weeks I went through over 100 missions with my level 3 CreoDron agent (including the ~25% I rejected) without getting a single important mission.
If you rejected 25% of 100 missions, that would mean that you would probably require about 50-75 missions to get an important mission.
My guess: you rejected more than 25%, have overestimated how many missions you've completed, or are not actually completing these missions for the same agent and thus are subject to the laws of Collossal Bad Luck.
You need to accept at least 60% of your missions to have any chance whatsoever of ever getting an important mission, which at that rate could be once every 90 missions for the agent in question. Worse even if you're quitting missions rather than declining them.
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FZappa
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Posted - 2004.02.03 10:31:00 -
[25]
@ papa smurf
why has the daily +0.1 to negative
empire rating been removed ? . its starting
to become rather painful do to important
missions now , with no chance in hell of
repairing your neg empire rating .
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.02.03 12:21:00 -
[26]
Papa: I agree that the implant farming was an unpleasant side effect, but there are perfectly good reasons why people would want to decline a mission.
Travel through excessively dangerous system, low pay to long 1 way journeys, etc.
The point (and question) I have is the downside currently is we HAVE to accept every mission offered, or there are negatives.
Would it not be a little fairer to people to offer them a choice of say one of these 2 or 3 missions, and they can see the mission information for each.
1) Short distance, lower rewards
2) Medium distance, higher risk
3) A long haul, higher income mission.
Choosing one would be like normal, but declining all three would annoy your agent.
It really was annoying to get 13-20 jump one way missions. They really did consume a lot of time and have an average reward, but you knew that declining one was worse then doing it.
The point is there is currently no choice without a very nasty negative effect (both to standings and to potentially important future missions), and to be honest almost any decent agent you are getting to do work for you in life will call you will multiple potential jobs, and try to sell you to interviews to all. They have more to gain from you potentially accepting at least one.
Any thoughts people?
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.02.03 12:38:00 -
[27]
I work 5 agents...
I normally accept every mission...
The only exception to this is extremely long missions (which I had not got until last night - 28 jump round trip for reward valued around 60k) or Zor as I don't have the combat skills or ship to take him on my own and Corp m8s don't tend to be near my agent systems...
People turning down regular missions to take advantage of the system should have these benefits taken away.
At the same time dedicated agent runners who concentrate on gaining standings should not be dealt with harshly for turning down the occasional missions and should be given some advantage for so zealously meeting their agent's needs.
I currently have a +9 standing with a leading Manufacturing Corp and am +6 with several of its agents - yet do not seem to have gained any particular extra reward for this hard work - whereas some people who have gone out and deliberately ****ed their agents off have made multi-multi-millions! From a realism standpoint that really fails...
I appreciate your response to this thread Papa Smurf - particularly the news that the cash rewards will once again be increased - do we have any eta on this?
I was not particularly upset with the Tech 2 components mineral nerf as had not taken advantage of recycling them anyway - Got whole piles of the stuff - which had been saving in the expectation that when Tech 2 manufacturing really takes off so will demand (and prices)...
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.02.03 13:04:00 -
[28]
Sorry to post it again, but could you explain what has happened the Navy mission choice please Papa Smurf?
Is it intentional that fully half of all missions there are now courier again ?
Prior to last patch it seemed about 90% were kill missions.
And now there are courier missions all the time. With important mining, important courier, and various nonsense getting in the way of the serious business of killing serpentis and caldari targets ;)
Is this a glitch, or is it intentional, and if its the later, could I please beg you to reconsider because I loved the way you could get proper mission choice preferences by corp in castor, and this seems a really serious step backwards.
Thanks in advance
JF Public Forum |
Viduus
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Posted - 2004.02.03 15:20:00 -
[29]
Thanks Again for the reply; I'll see what I can do about compiling that data.
Next Question:
You've stated that Imp missions will now also become IMs; what I want to know is: Is it still going to be some hugely random formula for dispensation, in which some people will get several daily while others get 1 a month if they're lucky?
Please keep in mind that the "Factors Lowering Chances" bit I don't really buy, for the reason that:
1. Most of my agents have an EQ of 32 at least.
2. I only ever do missions for one agent at a time; I move on after several hundred missions.
3. I have 3/4 ship types available to me for missions, so that couldn't be a factor.
4. I decline so few missions that it might make up 0.5% of all missions I've ever been offered.
5. I've never failed a mission.
AND YET, I did 2 missions total for Federation Navy; the 2nd one was an Implant Mission (this was immediately following Castor1), with an EQ of 23. I've not recieved one since, working for Corps. that have confirmed Imp Missions.
* Public Channel: NEA * |
Falnaerith
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Posted - 2004.02.03 16:09:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Falnaerith on 03/02/2004 16:12:29
I think law of Collossal Bad Luck is hitting you rather hard. If you don't decline/fail missions, work for the same agent regularly, there shouldnt be a reason not to get any important missions at all.
It's nice to know that the declining reduces important, which I never knew of before, which also should fix the implant farming.
Curious though, whether or not the kill missions correctly tell you which person you'll be killing, or if that will be coming later?
*edit* Just a parting question, will those who were farming for implants take the hit for recieving important missions before the changes take place
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Basic truths?
Idiots make us rich.
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Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill them. |
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