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Marz Ghola Royal Order of Security Specialists 24	Posted - 2012.01.14 21:26:00 - [31] - Quote Ryuce wrote: I honestly think the guy is this clueless regarding Minmatar ships. He recently made a comment about SFI's being unable to use armor fits outside AHAC fleets. E: Are you trying to sell Tornados? fkn used car salesman, that figures
Aamrr 224	Posted - 2012.01.14 21:41:00 - [32] - Quote And every last one of them has sawdust in the engine!
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 86	Posted - 2012.01.14 21:44:00 - [33] - Quote And the more DPS it does, the better it tracks, right?
Large Collidable Object morons. 950	Posted - 2012.01.14 21:52:00 - [34] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Large Collidable Object wrote: Rather bad troll but I'll give you 1/10 because you're likely to catch many. OP's in Brick. Who knows if tlorring or srs Oh - they weren't that bad until they accepted all kinds of ex-R.A.G.E. and ME crap... Anyway - I think he's mildly amusing - especially in his other thread where he continuously displayed an astonishing amount of idiocy and cluelessness. I increase my rating to a 2/10. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 21:52:00 - [35] - Quote Aamrr wrote: Dyaven wrote: How me a Talos and/or Tornado fit that has both better DPS and Tank than a Hurricane while remaining similarly agile. No, no, that's not fair. In Cyzlaki's world, only DPS matters. Everybody knows that doing more than 800 DPS turns a paper tank into a special force field of invincibility. In my world, the ability to do DPS without dying matters. Which is why I engaged: 2 Myrm, 2 Cane, 3 Drake, [Brutix], Arazu, [2 Blackbird], Arbitrator, [Osprey], [Bellicose], Rupture, Catalyst, Cormorant, [2 Thrasher], [Punisher], [Merlin], Rifter vs Talos, 3 Tornado, Cane, Ares, Oracle Being in [] indicates it died. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Aamrr 224	Posted - 2012.01.14 21:52:00 - [36] - Quote Duchess Starbuckington wrote: And the more DPS it does, the better it tracks, right? No, not quite. You just ignore signature resolution. Oh, and you can multiply things by zero and get nonzero results. That's pretty cool, too.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:00:00 - [37] - Quote Aamrr wrote: Duchess Starbuckington wrote: And the more DPS it does, the better it tracks, right? No, not quite. You just ignore signature resolution. Oh, and you can multiply things by zero and get nonzero results. That's pretty cool, too. Oh and a bunch of numbers that people assume are right trumps the actual in game performance too, amirite? :) -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Aamrr 224	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:08:00 - [38] - Quote Only if a few anecdotal killmails constitute more evidence than the years of successful use that formula has seen.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4380	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:15:00 - [39] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Oh and a bunch of numbers that people assume are right trumps the actual in game performance too, amirite? For comparative purposes, absolutely, especially since the numbers aren't actually assumed, whereas the performance is (on top of being quite incomparable unless under circumstances that would be derided as even less realistic than the numerical analysis). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Uppsy Daisy Perkone Caldari State 50	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:18:00 - [40] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: In my world, the ability to do DPS without dying matters. Which is why I engaged: 2 Myrm, 2 Cane, 3 Drake, [Brutix], Arazu, [2 Blackbird], Arbitrator, [Osprey], [Bellicose], Rupture, Catalyst, Cormorant, [2 Thrasher], [Punisher], [Merlin], Rifter vs Talos, 3 Tornado, Cane, Ares, Oracle Being in [] indicates it died. -Liang But, but, but that doesn't mean the Talos is op! It just means you have l33t pvp skillz Liang!
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:24:00 - [41] - Quote Uppsy Daisy wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: In my world, the ability to do DPS without dying matters. Which is why I engaged: 2 Myrm, 2 Cane, 3 Drake, [Brutix], Arazu, [2 Blackbird], Arbitrator, [Osprey], [Bellicose], Rupture, Catalyst, Cormorant, [2 Thrasher], [Punisher], [Merlin], Rifter vs Talos, 3 Tornado, Cane, Ares, Oracle Being in [] indicates it died. -Liang But, but, but that doesn't mean the Talos is op! It just means you have l33t pvp skillz Liang! I liked your post. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:25:00 - [42] - Quote Aamrr wrote: Only if a few anecdotal killmails constitute more evidence than the years of successful use that formula has seen. When was the last time you verified the hit and tracking formulas? -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4381	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:27:00 - [43] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: When was the last time you verified the hit and tracking formulas? When was the last time they were suspected to have changed? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Aamrr 224	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:29:00 - [44] - Quote About 5 minutes ago, apparently -- but we gotta pay attention, cuz it's zomg Liang Nuren doing it!11! Hint: When the formula is officially hosted on the eve online website, you'd think they'd mention a thing or two about it in the patch notes.
Name Family Name Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 50	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:53:00 - [45] - Quote So - the Gallente Tier 3 BC outperforms the Minmatar Tier 2 at speed and EFT DPS whereas dealing damage is pretty much it's only role whereas the Hurricane is more versatile and tanks better... Sounds like it's working as intended.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 22:54:00 - [46] - Quote Aamrr wrote: About 5 minutes ago, apparently -- but we gotta pay attention, cuz it's zomg Liang Nuren doing it!11! Hint: When the formula is officially hosted on the eve online website, you'd think they'd mention a thing or two about it in the patch notes. You are forgetting that the "Turret DPS" formula was also hosted on the Eve-O site and experimentally shown to be incorrect. In fact, I can't recall any formula that CCP has published. And nor have I seen them confirm any formula to be correct. Tippia wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: When was the last time you verified the hit and tracking formulas? When was the last time they were suspected to have changed? You should pay attention more - pretty much every patch has someone saying its acting slightly differently. Furthermore, this is :ccp: we're talking about - who knows what they'll screw up when adding a new CQ? :P -Liang Ed: And the thing I'm trying to point out here is this: " I dunno Khrage, I think its time that people stopped living in EFT and started playing the game. Its all well and good to argue from the theoretical foundation that EFT gives, but there's entirely too little weight given to actual practical results. EFT and numerical analysis should be a basis for forming a suspicion of how things work - not the final arbiter of who is right on these intarweb forumz. -Liang " Taken from https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=643099#post643099 Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4381	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:03:00 - [47] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: You should pay attention more - pretty much every patch has someone saying its acting slightly differently. Yes, and every patch, people have to explain that random numbers are random and that the GÇ£someoneGÇ¥ of the day needs to provide some data to support their assertions, which they never do. So far, nothing to the effect of saying the CTH formula being invalid has been offered. The kinds of claims the OP comes up with are thoroughly unsupported byGÇª everything. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:11:00 - [48] - Quote Tippia wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: You should pay attention more - pretty much every patch has someone saying its acting slightly differently. Yes, and every patch, people have to explain that random numbers are random and that the GÇ£someoneGÇ¥ of the day needs to provide some data to support their assertions, which they never do. So far, nothing to the effect of saying the CTH formula being invalid has been offered. The kinds of claims the OP comes up with are thoroughly unsupported byGÇª everything. No, the kind of claims the OP is making come from actual combat... which is slightly different than nice theoretical situations where everyone orbits in nice pretty perfect circles... -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4381	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:15:00 - [49] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: No, the kind of claims the OP is making come from actual combat... which is slightly different than nice theoretical situations where everyone orbits in nice pretty perfect circles. The OP claims that large turrets track better than medium turrets. He makes this claim based on shooting large turrets and based on theoretical numbers without any consideration of how they are used by the game engine. Not only is that a useless source of information, but he is also using a theoretical argument that is based on absolutely nothing. The first part might be excused; the latter part is what's so mind-bogglingly silly, especially since he tried to hide it behind a curtain of them being GÇ£practicalGÇ¥ just because he reads them from an in-game stat screen. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Aamrr 224	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:15:00 - [50] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: No, the kind of claims the OP is making come from actual combat... which is slightly different than nice theoretical situations where everyone orbits in nice pretty perfect circles... Which would change their angular velocity, but does nothing to change the interaction between signature resolution, signature radius, and the tracking attribute. Do you mind making a point that isn't a red herring?
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:17:00 - [51] - Quote Aamrr wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: No, the kind of claims the OP is making come from actual combat... which is slightly different than nice theoretical situations where everyone orbits in nice pretty perfect circles... Which would change their angular velocity, but does nothing to change the interaction between signature resolution, signature radius, and the tracking attribute. Do you mind making a point that isn't a red herring? Frankly, all this attacking someone who has some ~math fail~ is a red herring to the point he's trying to make: in actual combat these ships are ******* monsters. Maybe if you guys would stop trying to attack his argument on the basis of ~math~ you might see why the ~math~ actually supports it? -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:18:00 - [52] - Quote Tippia wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: No, the kind of claims the OP is making come from actual combat... which is slightly different than nice theoretical situations where everyone orbits in nice pretty perfect circles. The OP claims that large turrets track better than medium turrets. He makes this claim based on shooting large turrets and based on theoretical numbers without any consideration of how they are used by the game engine. Not only is that a useless source of information, but he is also using a theoretical argument that is based on absolutely nothing. The first part might be excused; the latter part is what's so mind-bogglingly silly, especially since he tried to hide it behind a curtain of them being GÇ£practicalGÇ¥ just because he reads them from an in-game stat screen. Tippia, claiming actual combat is theoretical compared to EFT is... well, hilarious. -Liang Ed: And if you don't like the OP, then why don't you try talking to me or Kingwood instead? There's quite a few experienced PVPers that are out making waves. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4381	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:21:00 - [53] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Frankly, all this attacking someone who has some ~math fail~ is a red herring to the point he's trying to make: in actual combat these ships are ***** monsters. Maybe if you guys would stop trying to attack his argument on the basis of ~math~ you might see why the ~math~ actually supports it? The problem is that the point he's trying to make is being made by arguments that are completely bogus. If he had just stuck to combat records, then fine, but he didn't he started out with theoretical arguments and kept throwing in more and more theory that was just blatantly wrong to try to support those first (equally flawed) theoretical arguments. You're quite right: practice tells us how stuff works in practice, which is why the OP shouldn't try to use theory because he just keeps messing it up and ruining his argument. Quote: Tippia, claiming actual combat is theoretical compared to EFT is... well, hilarious. Good thing that I'm not doing that, then. I'm claiming that he is trying to hide EFT-arguments behind a rhetoric of actual combat, when they are just as theoretical as the the counter-arguments he's trying to disprove. Quote:** And if you don't like the OP, then why don't you try talking to me or Kingwood instead? Because you know your stuff GÇö it's the OP that needs to learn why his theoretical arguments don't work. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:30:00 - [54] - Quote Then maybe you could say something like "I agree - these ships are total monsters! But your math is off because of X, Y, and Z" Instead you said: "What? The ships are so fragile and weak to tackle and and and and and". I should probably go back and see all the arguments you've made against the topic instead of against the person. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Gloomy Gus GoonWaffe 47	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:35:00 - [55] - Quote Waveism wrote: Large Collidable Object wrote: Rather bad troll but I'll give you 1/10 because you're likely to catch many. Not in a relevant alliance therefore opinion is invalid glass houses Sincerely, Gloomy Gus, Spaceship Pilot. This post has been signed and sealed by Gloomy Gus, poster on an internet space ship forum entitled EVE: gate. All Rights Reserved.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4382	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:35:00 - [56] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Then maybe you could say something like "I agree - these ships are total monsters! But your math is off because of X, Y, and Z" Instead you said: "What? The ships are so fragile and weak to tackle and and and and and". I should probably go back and see all the arguments you've made against the topic instead of against the person. Maybe, but again, look at how it started: he made a whole slew of theoretical claims. You were the one who introduced the practice in the thread. As for arguing the person, yes, I do that after people call me a moron and a bonehead for questioning their theory when they have no clue about the theory in question. Hell, just look at this thread: hid did the exact same thing, starting out with a slew of theoretical arguments without any concern about something as critical as application (and again, the theory wasGÇª questionable). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
DarkAegix Acetech Systems 786	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:37:00 - [57] - Quote Guys, guys, guys. The Talos effectively tracks better than the Cane because it can fit dual webs.
Joe D'Trader Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 51	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:45:00 - [58] - Quote Liang, can you link the actual fight, hopefully on eve kill or something?
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:47:00 - [59] - Quote DarkAegix wrote: Guys, guys, guys. The Talos effectively tracks better than the Cane because it can fit dual webs. Practically speaking, the Talos feels like it tracks better because: - People tend to think they have a 160m sig radius, when in reality they have a 940m sig radius from MWD sig bloom. This means that you would normally expect the Talos to have a > 50% tracking penalty but instead it has a ~50% tracking bonus. - The large guns have much better range. This means that the Tier 3s tend to be much earlier in the falloff curve compared to the medium gun Tier 2 BCs. - At a certain point (either because of diminishing returns from 2.7x better tracking, or because of superior range), it just becomes a matter of the Tier 3s just doing so much ******* damage. Even if the Zealot tracks 2.7x better than the Talos, it doesn't have near the raw DPS... and what really matters in this game (in practice) is the ability to deal damage. Anyway, I was afraid that the Tier 3s would be useless when they were introduced. I too said they would be easily tackled and easily die... and in truth the first few weeks seemed to say that was the way it would stay. But I was wrong. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 577	Posted - 2012.01.14 23:49:00 - [60] - Quote Joe D'Trader wrote: Liang, can you link the actual fight, hopefully on eve kill or something? http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1449 (the battle report is a bit useless because we get so many kills in Amamake). http://killboard.eveuniversity.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12076 -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren

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