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Blue Ice
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Posted - 2004.02.04 16:10:00 -
[1]
Whats the technicalities behind being jammed - hows it done, how do you defend against it - what sort of things are being used in slots to attack and block against it..
Just want to get a rounder understanding of it, been running with my Thorax for a few months now, buying a Moa tonight to see how the two ships compare... 
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Jim Bond
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Posted - 2004.02.04 16:16:00 -
[2]
Get a blackbird for jamming instead, its far the best jamming cruiser.
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Blue Ice
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Posted - 2004.02.04 16:19:00 -
[3]
Not into jamming yet, I'm kinda on the how do I avoid being jammed side of things ;)
I mean if people have comments about Moa vs BB feel free to commment also - buyingon of them in 2hrs ;)
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Mojo JoJo
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Posted - 2004.02.04 16:22:00 -
[4]
use eccm and stay away from bb's and bs's cause there prob set usp to jam BS's wich is alot more then it takes to jam a moa
wich btw is one slow pos if you ask me
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Lomithrandra
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Posted - 2004.02.04 16:26:00 -
[5]
There are two ways to jam a ships targeting.
Target Jamming
Every ship has a sensor strength, and specialises in one of the following sensor types:
Radar : Amarr
Ladar : Minmatar
Gravametric : Caldari
Magnometric : Gallente
A basic tier 2 battleship has 14 sensor strength in its race specific type.
To target jamm the ship, you have to get this sensor strength to 0 or lower.
You can do this by fitting ECM modules, such as ECM Multispectrals, Phase Inverters (Ladar), ECM White Noise (Radar), Gravametric Destabilizers (Gravametric), Magnometric Destabilisers (Magnometric)
Defense
To defend against being target jammed you can fit Sensor backup arrays in your low slots, or ECCM modules in your medium slots.
The aim is to get your sensor strength to a level where you predict your aggressor wont be able to jam to... its a gamble.
Sensor Dampening
This is slightly different to target jamming.
Every ship has a maximum targeting range, when you activate a sensor dampener on your target, you effectivly reduce their targeting range.
If you use enough dampeners their targeting range will be so small that they are out of action.
The item you need to do this is : Remote Sensor Dampener, or the better pirate loot versions.
Defense
The only counter to sensor dampeners, is to use sensor boosters, these items fit in the medium slot, and low slots.
As with target jamming, it is a gamble between how many dampeners your aggressor may use on you.
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Lead Forum Moderator
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Miss Take
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Posted - 2004.02.04 16:32:00 -
[6]
If you have been jammed then you can use FOF missiles against them.
You can also fit ECCM mods improving your signal strength, but they are a waste of a mid slot IMO, as they boost signal strength by 3 and if the bb is set up to jam a bs, they will still be able jam u.
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Warnei Belmid
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Posted - 2004.02.04 16:47:00 -
[7]
Don't bother trying to defend against it. It's not worth losing the slots. If you get Jammed, use FOF's.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.02.04 17:07:00 -
[8]
Jammers work the following way:
Each race has a different type of sensor.
Caldari - Gravimetric
Amarr - Radar
Gallente - Magnetometric
Minmatar - Ladar
If you look at the info on your ship you will see it has a sensor strength in its area of XX (usually 10 or 11 for a cruiser) and zero in all other areas.
For someone to jam you they need to overcome your sensor strength in the specific area your ship uses. So, if you have a sensor strength of 11 (what a Moa has) your enemy has to equal or beat that strength to shut down your ability to target. If the strength is equaled target locks are not broken but you cannot target anymore ships. If the jamming exceeds your sensor strength then all target locks you have are broken and cannot be re-established till the jamming stops.
Jammers come in race-specific modules (mods dedicated to one area) or multispectral which jam all races equally. Race specific jammers do 6 points of jamming in one area and 2 points in all others. Multispectral jammers do 4 across the board. Multispectrals are by far the most used jammers. Unless the pilot knows what ship he/she will face (rarely happens) they need the option to handle all comers. Of course if they do know ahead of time then race specific is better as you can jam with fewer modules freeing up room for other goodies.
Note that multiple ships all add their jamming together. That is, three ships individually hitting one cruiser with one multispectral each will successfully jam it.
To stop this you need to mount sensor upgrades such as a Gravimetric Backup Array (works for Caldari). A basic one of these will grant you a +2 boost to the specific sensor it is for. So for, say, a Moa which has a sensor strength of 11 it would boost it to 13. This will force your opponent to use one more jammer on you (they now need 3 race specific or 4 multispectral as opposed to 2 or 3 previously).
In general that is about as good as you will get. It is not really practical to tank a cruiser (definitely not a frigate) to be unjammable. If even possible you wonĘt be doing much of anything else. Usually you will see a jamming ship fitted to jam 16 or 20 points of sensor and it is hard to overcome that. Still, in a fleet engagement tying up one more jammer can be useful otherwise a ship may add that extra jamming along with the extra jamming of other ships to jam a second ship.
To fight against a jammer use FoF missiles, drones are a possibility (they seem to respond to protect their master if the mothership is damaged), or smartbombs. You generally cannot get out of jamming range as it has no range to if they can target lock you they can jam you.
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Hanns
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Posted - 2004.02.04 17:27:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Hanns on 04/02/2004 17:28:22
IMO Multispectrals are the best form of jamming against multiple targets,but use alot of cap, and you have to be smart the way you "pulse" them. but if you want to lock down a single ship use Sensor dampners, and they are very hard to counter (to hard IMO)
Sensor dampners are good, but need to be reworked, they are far to effective ATM
Also u can permenantly jamm a single ship using a mix of race specific jammers, use 1 of each race specific jammer and one extra gravemetric jammer this way you can jamm any (stock) battleship
so on a scorp you would use 5 mid slots 1x White noise 1xPhase inverter 1xIon feild projector and 2xspatial distabilizers(you use 2 caldari jammers as caldari ships tend to have higher sensor strengths)
so with this setup you can jamm for
-18 Gravemetric
-14 Ladar
-14 Magnometric
-14 Radar
basicly any ship in the game that inst packing backup arrays or ECCM
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.02.04 19:13:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jarjar on 04/02/2004 19:15:08
Either that, or if you want to keep a slot, you could use 3x multispectral + 1x gravimetric.
3x4 + 6 = 18 against caldari and 3x4 + 2 = 14 against amarr/minmatar/gallente.
Since most ships that use backup arrays wouldn't get jammed by 4 multis either (nobody is stupid enough to get their sensor strength to 15-16, right?  ), it's pretty useful.
EDIT: Don't try my setups on a blackbird, though. Now, I know you wanted to protect against jamming, not jam stuff, but... Multispectrals are battleship only, since they use 40 cap every 5 secs. You can't use 4 of those on a cruiser.
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Vigo Barboza
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Posted - 2004.02.05 09:49:00 -
[11]
good question and excellent replies.
thx all
Recruitment
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fras
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Posted - 2004.02.05 10:43:00 -
[12]
Another thing to note is that u can't warp out if u have a jamming module running.
The race specifics last about 30 seconds so if you can't jam your target yer doooomed!
BB is an excellent ship but if things don't go your way you can kiss your behind goodbye 
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Miss Take
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Posted - 2004.02.05 11:14:00 -
[13]
 Quote:
Edited by: Hanns on 04/02/2004 17:28:22
but if you want to lock down a single ship use Sensor dampners, and they are very hard to counter (to hard IMO)
Isnt the exact opposite to a sensor dampener a sensor booster? if you have one fitted and in use, then have a sensor dampenor used against you, they basically cancel each other out?
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Gun Kata
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Posted - 2004.02.05 11:27:00 -
[14]
If my attacker is using a Passive Targeter on me and has jammed me will FoF missiles still work?
"I have seen everything now."
"Yeah? Have you seen a man eat his own head?" |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.02.05 11:29:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Hanns on 04/02/2004 17:28:22
but if you want to lock down a single ship use Sensor dampners, and they are very hard to counter (to hard IMO)
Isnt the exact opposite to a sensor dampener a sensor booster? if you have one fitted and in use, then have a sensor dampenor used against you, they basically cancel each other out?
unfortunately, no
A sensor booster adds 50%
A sensor dampener removes 50%
so, if I have a ship with 100 km targetting, and someone damps me, I will then have 50km targetting.
If I activate a booster, it adds 50%.
50% of 50km is 25km, therefore, targetting range is 75km.
to be really 1-for-1, dampeners need to be set to -33% or boosters to 200%...
in a modules battle, the dampener will win.
.
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StoreSlem
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Posted - 2004.02.05 12:40:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Hanns on 04/02/2004 17:28:22
but if you want to lock down a single ship use Sensor dampners, and they are very hard to counter (to hard IMO)
Isnt the exact opposite to a sensor dampener a sensor booster? if you have one fitted and in use, then have a sensor dampenor used against you, they basically cancel each other out?
unfortunately, no
A sensor booster adds 50%
A sensor dampener removes 50%
so, if I have a ship with 100 km targetting, and someone damps me, I will then have 50km targetting.
If I activate a booster, it adds 50%.
50% of 50km is 25km, therefore, targetting range is 75km.
to be really 1-for-1, dampeners need to be set to -33% or boosters to 200%...
in a modules battle, the dampener will win.
But then again, shouldn't it be easier to kill something than to defend something?
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Miss Take
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Posted - 2004.02.05 12:55:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Hanns on 04/02/2004 17:28:22
but if you want to lock down a single ship use Sensor dampners, and they are very hard to counter (to hard IMO)
Isnt the exact opposite to a sensor dampener a sensor booster? if you have one fitted and in use, then have a sensor dampenor used against you, they basically cancel each other out?
unfortunately, no
A sensor booster adds 50%
A sensor dampener removes 50%
so, if I have a ship with 100 km targetting, and someone damps me, I will then have 50km targetting.
If I activate a booster, it adds 50%.
50% of 50km is 25km, therefore, targetting range is 75km.
to be really 1-for-1, dampeners need to be set to -33% or boosters to 200%...
in a modules battle, the dampener will win.
I see what you mean.
Even if u had it on, making 100km = 150km, the sensor dampener would then reduce it to 75km
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Hanns
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Posted - 2004.02.05 14:48:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Hanns on 05/02/2004 14:51:48
Quote:
If my attacker is using a Passive Targeter on me and has jammed me will FoF missiles still work?
As far as im aware, as soon as someone who is passive targetting you initiates and agressive act upon you (web, warp scramble shoot or ECM) the passive target is lost and the aggressor will have a red box around him to show that he has you targetted, this might have changed tho, so i could be wrong..
All passive targetter are good for, is if your in 0.0 space and dont like a corp (but they are unaware you dont like them) you can passive target a miner or hunter (as regualr targetting may make them flee), and attack them with the element of suprise!
This module however is very rarly used by pirates, as everyone knows who we are, or can tell by our sec rating, so they generally run away anyway! (that is unless the outnumber you 10-1 and want a fight :D)
So to answer your question, yes FoF's should work!
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Gun Kata
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Posted - 2004.02.05 16:02:00 -
[19]
Thanks Hanns. I was attacked at a mission point by someone in a BB who was hanging around. I was warp scrambled and webbed with incoming cruise but there was no target lock brackets so that may have answered that bit. I didnt have FoF at the time but did have a marked mwd so I escaped. But i would like to have 'surprised' my attacker with the Fof
"I have seen everything now."
"Yeah? Have you seen a man eat his own head?" |
Ataushu
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Posted - 2004.02.05 21:01:00 -
[20]
Another word on dampers, I know we're talking about protection against pvp. But if you wish to use a damper on a NPC, you cant. They all seem to be immune to the effects of dampers. It appears CCP gave the NPC rats an infinate targetting range.
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Xanz
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Posted - 2004.02.05 21:38:00 -
[21]
Question on Sensor Dampening.
How exactly does this work? I have locked people and dampened them, but they were either in process of locking me or able to then lock me at what appears to be no real significant time loss. Is there something I am missing?
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.06 04:45:00 -
[22]
Dampners simply own in pvp pretty much, its key that you lock first and get your dampner working. Of course if your enemy is inside even his dampned range they wont do you any good. Most people know a rought estimate on ships and where they can still lock even dampend. Most ships will drop to around 40km targeting range when dampened so if you stay away at 45K you can shoot them up very easy.
The thing with dampners is that they are defensive, they can let you survive a battle. You still need someone to go down scram and web the enemy.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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LiverpoolFC
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Posted - 2004.02.06 13:05:00 -
[23]
Thanks to everyone, a most interesting topic and certanly made me more aware of how these devices work.
Maybe this deserves a sticky.
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Marichek
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Posted - 2004.02.06 18:27:00 -
[24]
i wonder if one of these newer players is the one i ran into in ipay last night. He was in a BB with atleast two ecm gravs and called me a ***** because I, who had foolishly not put any FOF in my cargo, called on the huff guy who was in local to jam up the turd.
He was gone in about 6 seconds, and then proceeded to holler all sorts of stuff in local about how it took two of us to get him, etc etc.
So....
To that pilot: If you want to take on a fellow cruiser in a jamming BB, be prepared to always take on two cruisers. Jam one and pray he has no FOF while you try to take out the other guy.
Anyway, see you on the flipside, and thanks for the arbelest!
DannyThe Great > i have an urge to kill anyone who isnt in my corp and has a smaller ship. |
Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.06 19:42:00 -
[25]
The short answer is that you should always have some fofs with you, dont use them unles you really are in a jam. Drones are also good but they only really work on cruisers and below.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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